Long Range Shooting Myths

Mystic Precision said:
And this is really the rub when looking at scope levels. How good is the actual bubble you are buying?

We all have carpenter type levels and the bubbles do a wonderful job for keeping a fence post straight BUT that quality of bubble is too crude to be useful for the type of errors we are trying to resolve in LR shooting.

Simple enough test... just start canting the rifle slowly and see when the bubble actually starts to move. The generic bubble can be quite insensitive to small movements so it really doesn't solve our problem AND they can stick... try it and see for yourself.

had a chance to play with machinist levels and their VERY expensive bubbles....wow, talk about sensitive AND repeatable. But that bubble is worth alot of money all on its own. And I have no clue how durable they would be???

With alot of stuff for precision shooting, the theory is sound but the actual product we use really doesn't solve the problem all that well. But sure looks Gucchi on the rifle.

For anyone that does alot of LR shooting, they should learn to figure out what level looks like. It really isn't that hard and far more reliable then a cheap bubble. Will it be perfect, maybe not BUT doping the wind will be orders of magnitude more important then possible aiming error induced by a degree or two of cant.

Prove it to yourself next time you are out shooting....

Jerry
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A conventional bubble takes 3-4 degrees of tilt before it starts moving. There is one made by accuracy first that will indicate 1 degree. It is a ceramic ball that rolls inside a curved vial, I have one it works. If I'm at a range on even ground staring at a straight target board I just use the reticle.
 
The "guy" coaching is Walt Wilkinson, 30 years in military, 26 in Special Forces.
In 2014:
FCSA (Fifty Caliber Shooter) world championships Walt Wilkinson the won the Hunter Class Score match 283-7X. He shot an off the shelf Steyr HS50 that he has been using for years.
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In 2012:
TRUSSVILLE, Ala. (July 13, 2012) — Using his out-of-the-box Steyr HS.50 long-range precision rifle, Walt Wilkinson, 56, of Edgewood, NM, bested a field of 31 competitors—most using highly customized rifles—to take the Hunter Class Score World Championship title at the Fifty Caliber Shooters’ Association World Championships at the NRA Whittington Center near Raton, NM, held July 1st and 2nd. This marks the second year in a row that a competitor with an off-the-shelf Steyr HS.50 has won the Hunter Class, as Eduardo Abril de Fontcuberta walked away with the championship title last year.
Wilkinson, a retired U.S. Army Special Forces sergeant major and current Gunsite Academy instructor, ran up a two-day aggregate score of 274-6X out of a possible 300, beating his next closest competitor, Lee Rasmussen, by two Xs. With his Nightforce NXS 5.5X-22X 56mm scope and the HS.50’s stock folding bipod in place, Wilkinson’s rifle weighed in at just about 30 lbs. in a class with a 50-lb. limit. The Hunter Class is a
1,000-yd. course of fire consisting of six, five-shot strings, with three strings shot on the first day, and three strings shot on the second day. Due to the wildly varying winds on this range, competitors who shot in the morning of the first day were required to shoot in the afternoon of the second day, and vice versa, to equal the playing field.
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Walter Wilkinson Wrong Walter Wilkinson?
Realtor
Local Address: Andover, Minnesota, United States
Keller Williams Classic Realty, MN


Background
Employment History

Instructor
Gunsite Academy
Long Range Specialist
Gunsite Academy
Special Forces Weapons Sergeant
Gunsite Academy
Dental Assistant
US Army
Member of the Team
Ten-X Ammunition Inc.

Board Memberships and Affiliations

Board Member
National Rifle Association

14 Total References
Web References
Walt Wilkinson ...
www.gunsite.com, 26 Mar 2014 [cached]
Walt Wilkinson
Walt Wilkinson | Gunsite Academy
www.gunsite.com, 26 Mar 2014 [cached]
Walt Wilkinson
...
Walt Wilkinson
Walter Wilkinson served 30 years with the US Army, 26 of those with Special Operation Forces, retiring as a Sergeant Major. As a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant he trained foreign troops all across the Middle East and Africa in both US and Host Nation Weapon Systems and Tactics. He worked as an Adjunct Instructor for 5 years training Department of Energy security forces. He currently works as an independent contractor in the Middle East as a Security Specialist and a Heavy Weapons Instructor. He has been an Instructor at Gunsite since 2007. He teaches Pistol and Carbine.
TAC-TV Season 3, Ep 4: Long Range Accuracy…Semi Vs Bolt Action
www.tac-tv.com [cached]
TAC-TV joins Gunsite Academy's Long Range specialist Walt Wilkinson to test the strengths and weaknesses of the SR25 semi-auto sniper rifle in 7.62X51mm from Knight's Armarment against the Scalpel bolt action sniper rifle in 7.62X51mm from Surgeon!
Gunsite: Instructors
www.gunsite.net, 7 Aug 2010 [cached]
Walt Wilkinson
Walter Wilkinson served 30 years with the US Army, 26 of those with Special Operation Forces, retiring as a Sergeant Major. As a Special Forces Weapons Sergeant he trained foreign troops all across the Middle East and Africa in both US and host nation weapon systems and tactics. He worked as an adjunct instructor for 5 years training DOE security forces. He currently works as an independent contractor in the Middle East as a security specialist and a heavy weapons instructor. He has been an instructor at Gunsite since 2007. He teaches pistol and carbine.
Hunter Outdoor Communications
www.hunteroc.com, 16 July 2012 [cached]
TRUSSVILLE, Ala. (July 16, 2012) -Using his out-of-the-box Steyr HS.50 long-range precision rifle, Walter Wilkinson, 56, of Edgewood, NM, bested a field of 31 competitors-most using highly customized rifles-to take the Hunter Class Score World Championship title at the Fifty Caliber Shooters' Association World Championships at the NRA Whittington Center near Raton, NM, held July 1st and 2nd.
...
Wilkinson, a retired U.S. Army Special Forces sergeant major and current Gunsite Academy instructor, ran up a two-day aggregate score of 274-6X out of a possible 300, beating his next closest competitor, Lee Rasmussen, by two Xs.
...
Heading into his morning relay on the second day, Wilkinson found himself in second place with nothing to do but hammer the 12-inch 10-ring to work his way into the championship title.
Wilkinson, who purchased the Steyr HS.50 in 2007 and soon thereafter topped it with a Nightforce scope and a two-tone coat of Krylon paint, began working on load development as a main priority in order to compete in this type of long-range match.
"As I was working up a load for the HS.50, I shot groups that amazed me," Wilkinson said. "They were the best groups that I have ever shot in my life-and they were with the .50 BMG!
"This didn't make sense to me," he said. "With my experience with the performance of the same cartridge overseas, I didn't expect that kind of accuracy out of it. I was getting groups of .214 MOA at 220 yards, and I didn't know what to think. All the bullets were going in the same hole, and it was like 'Wow, I've really got a rifle that can shoot here.' And since then, with working up different loads and knowing what the gun likes, I have become extremely happy with the HS.50."
In addition to the new Hunter Class World Championship title, Wilkinson was also a member of the Ten-X team, which won the Team World Championship with an aggregate score of 1081-24X combined with an average group size of 14.549 inches for a combination score of 19.508, as compared to the second place team's 35.026. Each team comprised of four shooters with one from each of the four classes represented at the championships: Light, Heavy, Unlimited and Hunter.
On the day prior to the FCSA World Championships, June 30, Wilkinson also topped the winner board of the 600-Yard Practical Match with a score of 123-1X out of 150 possible. Using ball ammo of unknown origin, as did everyone else on the line, this was his third consecutive 600-Yard Practical Match win at the World Championships using the Steyr HS.50.
...
"After people have seen my success with the Steyr, several people are really looking hard at this rifle," said Wilkinson.
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BadAsMo said:
Sure you can shoot at things like steel plates at long range with a mediocre rifle, which is what I‘d like to think is the point of the video, but it’s not a competitive rig for F-Class.
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What does this have to do with F-Class rigs or F-Class period? I don't follow. This is UKD with factory ammo off a tactical bipod.

Mediocre rifle? You mean that AI? They are hardly mediocre for a tactical rifle and it has been my experience that anyone who claims their rifle is .25 moa shooting off a simple bipod on the ground in real life is overindulgent.
Have you ever had the opportunity to fire one?

Lets have a look at some 5'ers from one of these mediocre British bangsticks

Just terrible.



Omg, brutal.



Oooh, junk.



F##k me I need to get one of those heavy pedestal rests stat.



Oh screw this I'm taking up golf instead.



Wait maybe 300 yards will be better than a hundred. Aww dammit I did not get those 10 rounds into half moa, 2.5" is just....mediocre.



I was racking up V-bulls at the last BCRA match and tied with another shooter for the 2nd highest score in the F-Class stage....perhaps I could do better next time with a less mediocre rifle. The high score was won by another guy with an AI rifle that day (as well as the entire match). Imagine that.

An F-class rifle would suck for positional shooting at a PR match, it would probably bind up during fast double taps on movers and it does not have a 10 round magazine so that is a big handicap during timed exposures. I will be keeping my AI.
 
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J996 said:
A conventional bubble takes 3-4 degrees of tilt before it starts moving. There is one made by accuracy first that will indicate 1 degree. It is a ceramic ball that rolls inside a curved vial, I have one it works. If I'm at a range on even ground staring at a straight target board I just use the reticle.
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Now that is interesting... must investigate.

Do you sense it can handle the normal knocks a rifle will see?

Glass bubbles don't do much to build confidence

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Now that is interesting... must investigate.

Do you sense it can handle the normal knocks a rifle will see?

Glass bubbles don't do much to build confidence

Jerry
Click to expand...


It has been holding up well so far in practice and matches. It is apparently medical grade glass, easy to see with left eye when mounted. I will try to find a pic.

Whiz-Wheel-Review-3web.jpg
 
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J996 said:
A conventional bubble takes 3-4 degrees of tilt before it starts moving. There is one made by accuracy first that will indicate 1 degree. It is a ceramic ball that rolls inside a curved vial, I have one it works. If I'm at a range on even ground staring at a straight target board I just use the reticle.
Click to expand...

That makes sense with a bubble level that sits directly above the scope, but is it still the case when the bubble level is on an arm that folds out beside the scope? In that position its offset from the center of the rifle, so I would expect it to show a change in rifle cant more quickly, than if located directly above the scope.
 
An interesting experiment with a level vs. a shooter who has trained himself to use his vestibular sense.

[youtube]gzX6DsJ5IrY[/youtube]
 
This is a fun one I did with USO levels:



They give different readings everytime you install them, even with the same torque. The fold-out versions gave different readings each time they were folded out.
 
I enjoyed the video, but I wonder wHy would anyone build a rifle with a 20" barrel when matched to that cartridge, especially when making a LR video series?

Sort of undermines the potential of that cartridge and the rifle system?

Bubble levels,,it is the operators job to verify the bubble level to the scope crosshairs, not to assume they are correct when attached...
 
The fold-out version gives different readings every time you swing them out.

Nice thing about scope mounted bubbles is that you only need to calibrate them once... as long as they don't get knocked.
 
I found out the hard way how crappy the USO bubbles are. They did not agree with the rail, the clamping system locked in place so it had to be pryed off with the bolt removed, the bubble and tube were teeny tiny and difficult to see properly etc. I actually like the cheap Vortex bubble levels. I can put it in direct view of my left eye between the elevation and parallax knobs, its a good size where it isn't too big or too small, proportioned to quickly and easily establish level with a quick glance and easily visible in any reasonable light. Too bad I had to buy a bunch of levels from cheap to "high end" to find one that isn't a useless farkle accessory.
 
kombayotch said:
This kind of attitude shows the ignorance that comes from only shooting on a square range.

People shooting tac rifles don't give a crap about F-Class. F-Class is not a practical form of shooting. Neither the equipment used in it nor the techniques carry into practical field shooting. The people who would be interested in this video aren't shooting on a square ranges where all your distances are neatly divisible by 100, where the rings on the targets are scaled to be exactly MOA, with sighter shots to get you on target and nice big orange dots to show you where you're hitting and where your neighbour is hitting to help you with the wind in addition to having wind flags that are all over the place, or where you have a big heavy rest or little sawhorse trying to be passed off as a bipod.

The steel may seem easy when you think of shooting it in the context of square range target shooting, but matches that use steel look nothing like it. If you want to have the equivalent in F-Class it would look like this:
-take down all of the flags, those don't exist in real life.
-your first two shots at each target are all that makes up your score.
-distances will be random and odd (923, 267, 888, 1076...)
-the shots will not be marked. You will get a score indicator if your shot lands within the 5 ring if you're prone or within the 4 ring if shooting off a barricade, but no indication showing where it landed in the ring.
-most of your shots will not be from prone because in real life vegetation and obstacles prevent it.
-you'll have around 10 seconds to make each shot after moving into your position.

Get rid of all of that spoonfeeding and see what your scores look like and if the extra 0.1 MOA of precision makes any difference.
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And heaven forbid a grain of sand found its way into an f classers rifle.
 
It sure looks like a bunch of you guys missed my point.

People including many of the above so often see the world only through the lens of their own perspective.

A tactical shooter that is mind locked on the tactical perspective has left anything beyond that outside the scope of his vision.

That was my point from the beginning and many of you have played right into it.

There's always more to know for all shooting disciplines. The same applies to all areas of life.
 
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