Looking for NR "black rifle" or Green
- Thread starter 1bigrn
- Start date
His upper limit is $3500 for a NR. APC is a bit above the price range after tax, And I don't think he is from wild rose low tax country.
- Location
- Durham Region
ACR.... grow a strong forearm to carry the front weight..... Great rifle...
ITB
ITB
I do not know the Arizona proving ground test of the HK, but I would think the Swiss testing of the Sig 550 would make it an equal. I won't say better, but equal.
http ://www.biggerhammer.net/sigamt/550/550techinspection/
Agreed. I would add German in there, as the SL8 is a great gun. I didn't have great accuracy with mine; however I seem to be the only one, so I'm starting to think it was either me or the ammo that didn't perform.
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I've owned an SL-8 and my experience is the exact opposite of yours.
Proof is in the pudding with the Swiss arms - they come with an accuracy guarantee to shoot 10 rounds inside 10cmx10cm at 300m.
If your shooting skills need polishing, this is the rifle that will tell you that up front.
onetwentyish
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- East Central AB (AKA Northern Texas)
I have both, I would sell the swiss in a heart beat with out a second thought only reason I still have mine is variety is the spice of life.
The ACR handguard is free floated, one less thing to worry about when shooting from barricades.
The ACR runs more like an AR and it takes STANAG mags.
The ACR is arguably more modern, the SA design is more 80's ish.
But despite all that I like the SA better as I personally like guns & in the configs that have seen real life service.
Non-free float can be managed by training, and the SA manual of arms is quite slick once you try it out.
And the STANAG 10rd Canadian fascination thing does not wow me that much.
And Swiss engineering quality is easy to appreciate.
They are both great guns, each has its own attractive attributes. If you're choosing one, pick the attributes you care most about.
The ACR runs more like an AR and it takes STANAG mags.
The ACR is arguably more modern, the SA design is more 80's ish.
But despite all that I like the SA better as I personally like guns & in the configs that have seen real life service.
Non-free float can be managed by training, and the SA manual of arms is quite slick once you try it out.
And the STANAG 10rd Canadian fascination thing does not wow me that much.
And Swiss engineering quality is easy to appreciate.
They are both great guns, each has its own attractive attributes. If you're choosing one, pick the attributes you care most about.
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Every time I see you its the same thing.
First off, the word MOA should be banned from the black rifle forum. Its nauseating reading about how many people have sub moa black rifles, yet precision shooters spend thousands on custom bolt guns, and months if not years developing loads for that expensive bolt gun to achieve sub moa. Sub MOA is not getting lucky and having a good group one day out of a 100. To earn the title of Sub MOA you need to print 5 groups on one page and each group of 5 shots sub moa. And do that consistently, that's a sub moa gun. CGN is laughable how many guys claim "sub moa all day" for there favorite gun or a gun they are selling in the EE. Yet in the precision forum there is a thread called post your sub moa factory rifle, where you need to do the above and take pics. Interesting how there is only like a dozen or so guys on there. Not one swiss arms or black rifle at all. Yet thousands of guys are claiming "sub moa all day" almost daily on here. Todays manufacturer put all sorts of "guarantees" today. Almost every single bolt gun comes with something similar, tikka, sako, weatherby, savage etc. Trust me I have fired many that couldn't even come close. Its one of those guarantees you can't prove in the first place, so lets put it on the box and add $1000 to the price tag. I wipe my rear end with those claims. Are there sub moa shooters out there??? I am sure there are, but not nearly all of them like they claim.
That being said, I have owned or currently own literally every black rifle ever made non restricted in Canada(or at least the main ones). Here is my opinion through my experiences, not what I read on the internet. And I do not work for any of these companies, nor do I hang from there nuts, so I won't try to convince you on any. And will simply give you my feedback. Now take what I say for what its worth as I am not the running through the bush playing Rambo kinda guy, I don't wear tactical pants and vests to the range. I am a precision long range shooter and nothing makes me hard like laying prone behind a rifle with targets way down range, watching my swirl through the scope. So why I owned so many black rifles beats me, but I love to try them and have fun with them at shorter ranges.
Tavor... Great gun, always went bang no matter cheap ammo or reloads. I am a pretty big guy so I am not a fan of the bullpup, kinda felt like a toy to me. And I know I just said above these guns shouldn't be even compared to precision bolt rifles, but I'll bite as I know your gonna ask. Of the black rifles that I owned, this one was the least accurate. 3 MOA was a good day, and that probably had something to do with my shooting form as well. This rifle is not designed for prone shooting. It was designed to be used in wars and never jam, work under horrific conditions. And for that it did the job. I watched on video online where I guy submerged it in water and froze it, and it still fired. I sold it though as I really didn't find myself playing Rambo enough to actually keep it.
Modern Hunter (not varmint) I owned and to be honest was not overly impressed. Great points were the "AR" look and feel. You could share furniture between AR and it was a real nice gun to look at and hold. Shooting it was amazing, a 308 with almost no felt recoil what so ever. Accuracy though..... out of a rifle with that price tag.... embarrassing. Again I cant speak for the others on here, but I know I sold it asap. And noticed a lot of them on EE when I was selling. And there are still a lot for sale. I think there is a issue when so many are for sale, constantly.
XCR is my favorite so far. Again look and feel of the AR. Shared all the positives of the modern hunter in terms of feel, reliability, look etc. I have shot sub moa GROUPS. I capitalized groups as in no way am I calling it a sub MOA rifle, because it is not. But it can print nice groups and the bad ones are still under 2MOA normally. Again it suits my shooting style as I can lay prone behind it quite comfortably. And I can change the furniture to fit my shooting style. For the $2500 range I would say its the best bang for the buck. I still own this one for about 4 years now.
Norinco....... god bless all of you who have good ones. I did not have a good one. Mine jammed, trigger fell apart, finicky with ammo types.
SL8, in my experience the most accurate of the black rifles. Again well suited to my prone shooting. Negatives, I personally think its ugly, but I still own it lol. Not a huge fan of thumbholes, but I always bring it to the range with me lol. Its my go to for coyote hunting as I know its reliable and accurate. This rifle is one of the few black rifles that was designed to be a bench gun. So be realitistic, if your really only going to shoot at coyotes or off a bench. This is in my opinion the gun for you. If you like playing Rambo, then try some of the other options. I still call the XCR the best bang for the buck though as I know not everyone is like me and only wants to shoot prone. The XCR still has the modularity and the tacticoolness of a AR.
Swiss, saved this one for last. 100% a amazing gun, built to last and absolutely nothing wrong with it. But mine was not as accurate as you claim all of them are. Nor did that guarantee mean anything. Nor have I ever shot a friends or seen them shoot sub moa all day long. The XCR and SL8 I own always out shot my swiss. 9.5/10. Again those are my 3 rifles, not saying that will be the case for the whole worlds supply. My one negative again is you get what you get with a swiss. You can make some changes but nearly as many options as you can with the XCR and Modern Hunter/Varmint.
Lastly the ACR DMR from factory I have ordered from IRUNGUNS. I should have this baby in 2 weeks. I wanted to wait for the true factory version before investing in the ACR. So were almost there. So I will see if this gun will beat my 2 favorites in the XCR and SL8.
I do have to correct you, as I think it's pretty important to give the guys credit. There have been a few guys with black rifles make it into the Trinimon sub moa all day club. It is just in its own thread in the black rifle forum. You are correct though that there aren't any Swiss Arms in the club. Among others, there is a Norc(!) AR, and an XCR was dang close.
Anyways, great review, I just had to make sure those guys got credit. They are indeed few and far between.
As an aside OP, I've owned 3 Swiss Arms, and all 3 have been very consistently accurate. In the ~1.5+ moa all day category.
I've had many XCR's, one shot AMAZING (equal to Swiss at least), most were mediocre, while one was 'Tavor' accurate.
My experience with two Tavors has been 2.5-3 moa all day.
My SL8 was mediocre. Apparently I'm the only one though, so I'll chalk that up to likely being something on my end.
My modern Varmint has been disappointing accuracy wise so far.
No experience with an ACR.
To the OP, I'd have to agree with Chago; The XCR is the best bang for your buck, and that's coming from a Swiss Arms/SIG fanboy!
you need to check trinimon's black rifle sub moa challenge, you will find some interesting evidence contrary to your opinions
I have owned all of the same guns as Chago, with the exception of the ATRS MH, and SL8. Furthermore, I have owned multiple variants of SA PE90 including the 1/10, and 1/7 twist 20". I have owned three Tavors through their iterations, XCR's, an NR ACR, and so many high end AR's from Armalite, to Colt, DD, JP ENT, Noveske, KAC, etc. I always accuracy tested them with 55 gr ball, 62 Tac Bonded, and 69 gr FGMM, bagged and benched with 10x Nightforce for consistency. I have to say Chago's review, is spot on with my own experiences with those guns. The only semi-auto .223 that I have owned that would print 5 round sub MOA groups all day, was a factory Noveske 18" SPR heavy barrel I used to own, and only with 69gr SMK's. My NR ACR with a WOA 18" Wylde barrel was the most accurate NR I have shot. With factory match ammo, the ACR would hold .75 to 1.25 MOA with much focus. My light barrel, key mod XCR was a blessing, in that it would shoot 55 gr ball consistently well (1-2"), however that accuracy fell apart when you heated the barrel up. This has been my extended experience.
Ok, I'll bite since you levelled that rant at me.
Firstly, maybe go back and re-read the OP's first post.
Secondly, my posts in this thread revolve around the capabilities of the guns alone, ie the mechanical accuracy, not the shooter. I'm pretty sure I stated the SL-8 was a capable rifle (the one I had was hit and miss).
I'm not claiming to be a consistent sub-moa bench shooter, because a) I generally have better things to do with my time, b) I dislike shooting from the bench, as it is boring, and c) I generally don't care about this internet challenge.
My only interest in the mechanical accuracy of a rifle and ammo combo is that it gives a benchmark for how I am shooting at any given time.
Thirdly, it isn't my claim that SA rifles shoot to that standard before leaving the factory - but you should already know that if you actually own one, because you'd likely have the test target for your rifle.
Here's mine - 10 rounds, 300m, shot from a machine rest:
As far as service or 'black rifles' go, I think these guys are the only ones who do this - correct me if I'm wrong.
Fourthly, If you shoot an ACR or an XCR better than an SA, or you just plain like it better, then awesome for you.
I too have owned or currently own a number of models of restricted and non-restricted black rifles with the two exceptions being the ACR and the XCR. Some I've gotten along with (notables being the SA, FS2000, ARs) and some, not so much (Tavor, SL-8).
Lastly! if you are actually claiming another rifle is technically capable of better than the SA, maybe you have something that documents that? You know, besides some B/S internet post like this one:
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My post is not to you other then the first line. Because your posts are always swearing Swiss is the best. Like you called it. A rifelmans rifle. And everytime someone talks about another you shout blasphemy.
The rest of my post is comparing the rifle in my possession. I think I repeated myself 9 times In the post. I was not claiming one brand over the other. Just my 1 rifle vs my other rifle.
And not sure what the old post does for you? Ladies and gentleman of the jury. When I initially got my MH I was a nut hugger. Thank you beltfed for bringing forth the evidence. .. like honestly. My xcr is shooting 1-2 moa just like I said in this and last post. The MH. Well to be blunt. It did start shooting really good. But then something went south. I talked to ATRS a hundred times and told me I was loading too hot. As mentioned for that kinda money it shouldn't perform so poorly. Not sure what your trying to achieve here? Please don't message me again. My post was a review of my good and bad experiemces with my rifles.
PS. How's the ankle ?
The rest of my post is comparing the rifle in my possession. I think I repeated myself 9 times In the post. I was not claiming one brand over the other. Just my 1 rifle vs my other rifle.
And not sure what the old post does for you? Ladies and gentleman of the jury. When I initially got my MH I was a nut hugger. Thank you beltfed for bringing forth the evidence. .. like honestly. My xcr is shooting 1-2 moa just like I said in this and last post. The MH. Well to be blunt. It did start shooting really good. But then something went south. I talked to ATRS a hundred times and told me I was loading too hot. As mentioned for that kinda money it shouldn't perform so poorly. Not sure what your trying to achieve here? Please don't message me again. My post was a review of my good and bad experiemces with my rifles.
PS. How's the ankle ?
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Message you? I didn't send you a PM.
I don't think the Swiss Arms are the best, I think value for money that title goes to the AR platform. A pity they are restricted in name, but that's off topic.
I could care less what people spend their money on, so go with whatever floats your boat.
I do advocate for the the SA it is true, because I think within the context of what they are (an 80's service rifle), they're awesome., and the more of them in the hands of firearms owners the better.
Ankles' back to full strength - thanks for asking
Got any bench rest winning XCRs that need testing?
I don't think the Swiss Arms are the best, I think value for money that title goes to the AR platform. A pity they are restricted in name, but that's off topic.
I could care less what people spend their money on, so go with whatever floats your boat.
I do advocate for the the SA it is true, because I think within the context of what they are (an 80's service rifle), they're awesome., and the more of them in the hands of firearms owners the better.
Ankles' back to full strength - thanks for asking
Got any bench rest winning XCRs that need testing?
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