Looking for sources for quality SxS shotguns

A

Aabradsh

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
36   0   0
Location
Ontario
Hey guys

I’m looking into getting my hands on a quality sub gauge SxS. I’m aware that Intersurplus has a pile of SxS for sale, but I’ve found that most of them have 2.5” chambers and tend to have open chokes, and are 12ga.

My budget is ~3k. Does anyone have a recommendation for a shop or source that tends to carry these guns. I’ve done a fair bit of research, so I have a pretty good idea what I’m looking for, but am looking to broaden my search a little. Alternatively, if you have anything like this that you’re looking to move, feel free to PM me.
 
Maybe look at those Intersurplus listings a little closer and recalculate. Many better quality English 12 gauge side by sides with 2 1/2” chambers come in at 6 to
6 1/2 lb and are designed and proofed for 1 oz loads, which virtually duplicates 20 gauge gun weights and loads in many available guns. Most of these guns have one open and one tight choke, ideal for most upland hunting. In essence some of these handle and perform like a 20 with bigger bores and 2 1/2” ammo is available through any gun shop that stocks and sells Kent brand ammo. I can understand lusting after a nice lithe 20 for the aesthetics but in practical terms a nice light well balanced 2 1/2” twelve is just as effective and easier to find as well as easier on the pocketbook.
 
I’ve looked into a 2.5” 12, but the local shops around have all told me they can’t get the ammo right now. That’s why I’ve switched to looking at a 16 or 20.
 
Aabradsh said:
I’ve looked into a 2.5” 12, but the local shops around have all told me they can’t get the ammo right now. That’s why I’ve switched to looking at a 16 or 20.
Click to expand...

I live in Ontario. If you imagine you are going to walk into any gun shop and grab a box of 2 1/2" ammo, well of course you will have trouble with that. However, if you are aware that you need 2 1/2" ammo and take the relatively easy steps to discover what brands there are and where they can be found, it's not hard at all to have sufficient quantities of 2 1/2" for hunting requirements. I have probably 20 guns with 2 1/2" chambers. I've never been close to short the quantities of ammo I need for hunting each fall.

First shop I looked at 2 minutes ago had 12 gauge 2 1/2" in stock now.

Aside from the English guns on the Intersurplus site between $1200 and $4000, I've bought two 16 gauge guns from Intersurplus in the last 3 months. Both pre WWII, very high quality, great bores (despite what the listing said) and I paid less than $400 for each, delivered with a money back guarantee if I didn't like them for any reason. My gunsmith is refinishing the wood and putting a new pad on one and the barrel bluing was already in great condition. For less than $1200 all in, I'll end up with a very nice, high quality 16 gauge in great condition. Once that gun is back, the other will go for the same treatment.

Here's one I did last year on the same program:



 
Last edited:
I bought. A JP Sauer & Sohn special gewher with krupp barrels from them...2 3/4" magnum gun from 1957 manufacture.. 450$/ tax... Its one solid shooter.
Lots of 2 3/4" guns on that site
 
I trim 2 3/4” down to 2.5” shells and load my own. Perhaps that’s the avenue you should consider if you were to go with one in 12ga.
 
Aabradsh said:
I’ve looked into a 2.5” 12, but the local shops around have all told me they can’t get the ammo right now. That’s why I’ve switched to looking at a 16 or 20.
Click to expand...
Intersurplus also has 2 1/2 shells in #7.5 and #6 shot for $21 box. Shipping may be prohibitive, IDK but might be worth considering. Like someone else suggested, its not to difficult to keep a supply on hand so you don't have to be Abe to "walk into a shop" to pick some up. I too, have been turning away from anything with 2 1/2" chambers but after reading the suggestions and comments in this thread, I am SERIOUSLY reconsidering that position.
 
HUNTERROD said:
Easy to convert 2 3/4" to 2.5 "...trim the top of crimp off...take few pellets out...put a 12g card on top...roll crimp...easy as pie...
Click to expand...
One of those "DUH" moments for me. For YEARS the only shotguns I owned were BPC guns ("Damascus") So I loaded 2 1/2" BP shells with a roll crimper. Never even OCCURRED to me to just "reconfigure" 2 3/4" shells for a 2 1/2" chamber fluid steel gun. I have not done much research into the early 2 1/2" chamber guns so please forgive my ignorance but, d you have to reduce the powder charge a bit as well or are they typically proofed for the charges found in typical 2 3/4" shells??.
 
Licensed to kill said:
One of those "DUH" moments for me. For YEARS the only shotguns I owned were BPC guns ("Damascus") So I loaded 2 1/2" BP shells with a roll crimper. Never even OCCURRED to me to just "reconfigure" 2 3/4" shells for a 2 1/2" chamber fluid steel gun. I have not done much research into the early 2 1/2" chamber guns so please forgive my ignorance but, d you have to reduce the powder charge a bit as well or are they typically proofed for the charges found in typical 2 3/4" shells??.
Click to expand...

Typically Damascus BP proofed barrels ARE NOT proofed for the pressure levels generated by modern 2 3/4" shells. Regardless of chamber length. By the time 2 3/4 modern pressure ammo got common in the late 1920's, Damascus was over.

There seems to be some confusion in this thread.

There is chamber length.
There is pressure generated.
The is the load contained in the shell.

Those are three different things and because a particular shell conforms to one aspect, like chamber length, doesn't mean the other aspects, like pressure or load, are standardized for that length of shell. If you are going to shoot vintage guns you owe it to yourself and those standing in the vicinity when you are shooting, to become knowledgeable about these things. Not complicated or difficult but you still need to do it.
 
Last edited:
Licensed to kill said:
I understand that, my question was regarding 2 1/2" chambered fluid steel barrels.
Click to expand...

Whether fluid steel or Damascus, prior to 1925 essentially no barrels were produced or proofed and expected to manage the 11-12K PSI that is standard for modern ammo. Because ammo prior to 1925, whether BP or Nitro, didn't produce those pressures. It was only with the development and introduction of Winchester SuperX in 1925 that we got modern pressure levels. The barrels might have been proofed for a load (say 1 1/8 oz or 1 1/4 oz) but not for 11,500 of pressure.

Now, some barrels may handle that just fine. American guns typically manage okay but that is typically because they overbuilt the guns, expecting misuse and lack of maintenance. while the English "pushed the envelope" in aid of a lighter, better handling gun, expecting that it would be carefully maintained.

As I tried to make clear in one of my other posts, chamber length has nothing to do with managing pressure or load.

Chamber length only impacts pressure if you fire a too long shell that opens into the forcing cone. In that case, with a 12 gauge, it will typically boost max pressure 600-900 psi.

We care about pressure because we don't want the barrels blowing up.
We care about load because we don't want to shoot the gun loose, crack the stock or ruin our shoulders all from recoil.
We care about chamber length because GETTING IT WRONG impacts pressure and MAY BUT NOT NECESSARILY push pressure beyond safe limits.

With modern ammo, the ONLY shells that have a reduced peak pressure (ie below 11,000 psi) are labelled low pressure. Not "light", not "low brass", not "target loads" and not 2 1/2". What signifies low pressure is a label that says low pressure.
 
Last edited:
Canvasback has it correct. Many of these terms are confused and interchanged, mostly by people trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Shot weight, velocity, chamber length can affect pressure but they do not define pressure, they aren’t the same thing. The British made many changes to their proofing procedures and subsequently the proof marks over the years in a constant race to stay abreast of new ammunition developments. In general, if a gun is tight and sound and within the proof dimensions as marked, it is deemed safe to use WITH THE AMMUNITION SPEC that it was proofed for. This will include black (which has a different pressure rise profile) or Nitro, shot weight, pressure in the newest versions. Barrel material such as steel, twist, damascus, velocity, pressures (in older proof versions) were not part of the proofing consideration. The recent versions of proofing a new gun or reproofing an old one involve using maximum 2 3/4” proof loads (except for longer chambers like 3”) , far higher pressures than older guns were ever expected or proofed to accept and this applies also to i2 1/2 chambered guns. And then they do it again. Yes, they are run through this extra heavy pressure proof TWICE!
So you’re in Britain, 2 1/2” ammo is commonly available but now you’re concerned about this higher pressure ammo coming on the market. Will my trusted prewar Webley and Scott be safe to use with this? Maybe time to sell it and buy a new over/under. But wait, it’s illegal to sell a gun that isn’t in proof! To clean up those worn and pitted bores will put the old girl out of proof. Prep for reproof, having proof done, freeing the gun after, maybe £1000 - and what if it fails to pass? Ah, sell it as is for export, problem solved, the Americans and Canadians don’t know or care about proof. And they’re coming in by the hundreds.
 
HUNTERROD said:
Easy to convert 2 3/4" to 2.5 "...trim the top of crimp off...take few pellets out...put a 12g card on top...roll crimp...easy as pie...
Click to expand...

But this does nothing for pressure being generated if the gun is not rated for modern pressures. All cutting the end of the shell does is shorten it, it does not reduce pressure if that is a concern in a vintage 2 1/2" chambered gun. And most guns that are 2 1/2" are vintage.
 
Mount Sweetness said:
The title of this thread had me very interested.
Unfortunately it has gone completely sideways.
Click to expand...

There is no one stop shopping for quality vintage SxS. You have to look.

Epps, Accuacy Plus, Intersurplus, Prophet River, the EE, private sales between collectors, double gunsmiths......just to name a few. When I got interested in vintage sxs almost 20 years ago, it was the most confusing aspect of the whole thing......where do you find them? Sadly, there is no shortcut.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom