looking to improve accurace of M14

timoram

timoram

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Ok well here goes.
I'm going to see if I can turn a Norinco/Polytech into a .5moa (or better) tack driver.
I know that those dont really go together but I do like a challenge.

I'm looking for suggestions on hard parts that will improve or allow for improvement to this build.
I have so far determined that i will be using a Kreiger 22" heavy contour barrel on this build. I have heard nothing but good thing about them.
I will be having the barrel installed by a reputable smith with experience with the M14.
What other hard parts should I look into. I'm just interested in the hard parts right now will get into the smithing later.

Best Regards,
Tim
 
Best option: Buy M40A1 clone sniper rifle (would be cheaper and shoot better).:)

For .5 moa from an M14? You would need:
-Lots and lots and lots of money
-the krieger barrel you mentioned
-USGI bolt
-Every Smith Enterprise part you can get your hands on (SEI gas cyl, piston, op-rod, scope mount, ect). (Brownells, or call ron)
-Badger Ord NM spring guide
-USGI spring
-Match trigger group
-even more money
-McMillan glass stock, bedded.
-ream FS to NM
-Unitize gas system
-One master gunsmith to make it happen.

Apart from a krieger barrel and McMillan stock everything else i mentioned is in or on my M1A. Its money dump rating is up around $3200 and my Israeli mauser with 57 dated barrel i bedded shoots tighter than it does!!!! Dont get me wrong my M1A is a very accurate gas gun, but that ol mauser shows it up every time.
 
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J996 said:
Best option: Buy M40A1 clone sniper rifle (would be cheaper and shoot better).:)

For .5 moa from an M14? You would need:
-Lots and lots and lots of money
-the krieger barrel you mentioned
-USGI bolt
-Every Smith Enterprise part you can get your hands on (SEI gas cyl, piston, op-rod, scope mount, ect)
-Badger Ord NM spring guide
-USGI spring
-even more money
-McMillan glass stock, bedded.
-ream FS to NM
-Unitize gas system
-One master gunsmith to make it happen.
Click to expand...

That sounds along the lines of what I plan on doing. As for the clone rifle that is a no go.I already have a .25moa bolt gun in the vault. I want to take one of these "budget" M14's and see what I can do with it.
The build will be done over approximately 1 years time. In that time I will do my best to document every modification preformed to the rifle and see how it effects the function, reliability and accuracy.
As for your list. There are a number of SEI items on the shopping list. Is there a reason why you recommend the Badger Ord. national match spring guide over other manufacturers?
The stock I will use for the build will be the JAE-100 G2 as it provides an amazing bedding system and I like the fit and finish of the stock.
I do have a smith lined up to do the work that I can not do myself but I'm planning on doing most of the work. I want to be as involved with this build as I can be.

Best Regards,
Tim
 
Tim,
I have never used a JAE so i cant comment there.
As for US made spring guides both the Badger Ord and the Sadlak are good, i like the Badger because it is fatter and lightly contacts the spring all around, it is also fluted to reduce drag.
 
This Norinco is a sub MOA performer.

Suppressed-MK14-SEI-USN-Mod-0.jpg


The barrel is a medium heavy 18" Crazy Horse tube and the stock is a SAGE EBR.
 
Hot damm you have the nicest m14's around!
:adult:
I hate you.
I hate you.
I hate you.
I hate you.
I hate you.
I hate you.
:p
 
before you do ANYTHING ELSE, buy a press and do LOAD DEVELOPMENT- i've owned several m14s, ( right now i have 3 israelis and 1 very early rinco- that makes 4, people) and i've got each one down to moa BY FINDING THE 'SWEET SPOT for my loads- this was all with straight stock systems- no fancy barrels.etc- just a harris, decent scope and mount, and a LOT of time- of course, i've segretated my rifle and ammo ( combat load in pouches- 120 rounds) never mix them up, etc- i'd do a COMPLETE load development for EACH gun as i acquired it- change something, see what the variance is, and go again- you don't need any more than a 10x scope if it's a good one- you see too much vibration when you go to something like 18 and the vibration from the gas system and the rest of the bits starts to show in the equation
as for getting a CONSISTANT .5moa out of an m14- any m14 system, i'd say that was a PIPEDREAM
YOU SHOULD LOOK UP WHAT THE US ARMY ARMOURERS ON THE MARKSMANSHIP TEAM did to their rifles and follow suit- these are the gunsmiths that worked on the guns for the guys that competed at CAMP PERRY - that's a THOUsAND yard competition- remember the "system" has been around since 57 and these guys have explored EVERY possibility - and it's DOCUMENTED
 
Satain said:
Hot damm you have the nicest m14's around!
:adult:
I hate you.
I hate you.
I hate you.
I hate you.
I hate you.
I hate you.
:p
Click to expand...


Thanks!

I agree with finding the sweet spot by sampling different loads - every barrel is a little different.
I got lucky with the one pictured above because I get sub MOA performance with Portuguese NATO surplus ball.
I have better ammo, but right now I'm loving excellent accuracy for cheap :sniper:
 
I appreciate the opinions. I have done and will do load development.
But as the title says I am only interested in components to increase this rifles mechanical accuracy. There is still the need for trigger time and load development.
I have already looked at what the US forces have done to improve these rifles for 1000yard matches and it is quite impressive but I intend to go further than they do with there match rifles.
Yes it will cost money to do this and I don't perpendicularly care how much as this is something I enjoy and I have the permission of the wife to boot :D

Thanks for the reply J996. I will look into the BO op-rod guide. Does the use of the BO guid require the use of the USGI spring as well? I would assume that you mentioning that it lightly contacts the spring would indicate the smaller Norinco spring will not work with it.

Best Regards,
Tim
 
following the u.S. armourers match Conditioning procedures alone can shrink the groups on these rifles considerably. once this is done, simply lapping in a usgi bolt for correct/desired headspace and lug bearing should and will shrink it a bit more. I have built several 1 MOA rifles for happy clients and the above listed things are all that was done.... other than addressing any stock fitting.

I can recommend the krieger barrels as an instant accuracy gain.... incredible really. I have indeed built one rifle that is consistantly punching sub MOA , thru a krieger barrel, ALL usgi parts.... no over rated smith ent parts (yes you you read that right) AND she's not fussy on the commercial .308 she likes to be fed. This rifle was sub moa with no load development, it loves federal 150 gr SP's LOL

also i see a lot of guys shooting SA surplus and complaining about thier groups...... in my opinion the SA surplus nato ammunition is crap and a waste of money. For just blastin it's o.k. but for target shooting and for seeing what your bone stock norc is capable of before mods..... DONT base your opinion of your rifles accuracy on how it shoots SA surplus ball. Get some commercial .308 or some portugese or hirtenberger surplus.... then shoot her for groups and see what you got.
 
Thanks for the reply J996. I will look into the BO op-rod guide. Does the use of the BO guid require the use of the USGI spring as well? I would assume that you mentioning that it lightly contacts the spring would indicate the smaller Norinco spring will not work with it.

Best Regards,
Tim
Click to expand...

You could try it but my guess is it would bind as it is made for an american spring.
 
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Agreed !

M14Doctor said:
following the u.S. armourers match Conditioning procedures alone can shrink the groups on these rifles considerably. once this is done, simply lapping in a usgi bolt for correct/desired headspace and lug bearing should and will shrink it a bit more. I have built several 1 MOA rifles for happy clients and the above listed things are all that was done.... other than addressing any stock fitting.

I can recommend the krieger barrels as an instant accuracy gain.... incredible really. I have indeed built one rifle that is consistantly punching sub MOA , thru a krieger barrel, ALL usgi parts.... no over rated smith ent parts (yes you you read that right) AND she's not fussy on the commercial .308 she likes to be fed. This rifle was sub moa with no load development, it loves federal 150 gr SP's LOL

also i see a lot of guys shooting SA surplus and complaining about thier groups...... in my opinion the SA surplus nato ammunition is crap and a waste of money. For just blastin it's o.k. but for target shooting and for seeing what your bone stock norc is capable of before mods..... DONT base your opinion of your rifles accuracy on how it shoots SA surplus ball. Get some commercial .308 or some portugese or hirtenberger surplus.... then shoot her for groups and see what you got.
Click to expand...

I have had the same results with S A surplus - SA rarely shoots under 2 inches - even when sorted by over all length off the ogive.
Portugese FNM was always more consistent, and the old "mexican match" {milsurp with bullets pulled and replaced} is still the most accurate of all ammo i've used in Norcs,even tighter than 168 grain commercial {expensive} match ammo.
 
I am on the same project path as you are right now... totally doable. My out of the box Norinco (but with rail and 4X optics) shot 1.5" with Wal-Mart Winchester ammo
I don't think anyone mentioned the $0.05 shims for the gas system - they will be required.

Also + on the JAE... very good for accurizing, and as a note - the reason you don't see as many in competitions is only because they are heavy. But make sure you get the newer Gen 2 version with a barrel tensioner (sp?) for even finer tuning of your group size.
 
Almost stock

Not that I've done lots to my Norinco but I have sanded the stock in certain places, adjusted the gas timing with shims, installed a SS spring guide, adjusted the trigger several times, installed a cheek riser, Marstar scope mount and Bushnell 3200 3-9x40 scope. Using my IVI brass and loading out long I can just get sub MOA. Next on the list will be tack welding the gas system if I can find someone around my area who does SS.
 
I also no longer use gas system shims as they wear down too fast for my liking. Instead , a gas port alignment guage is used on the gas assembly while attached to the barrel. The stock ferrule is then held in place tightly against the barrel land and the 'gap' between the barrel land and the gas assembly body is measured. AT all times keeping the gas port alignment tool in place. Then once this measurement is found, the stock ferrule is tig welded in place with the appropriate 'gap'. What you end up with is a match conditioned, unitized gas assembly, with proper gas lock adjustment and no vibration/movement of the assembly.///// and no shims required ;)

one thing not mentioned very often but is practiced by master armourers is piston testing. hard to do for us canadian m14 owners as pistons aren't in great supply. BUT once your rifle is tuned to your liking, and you have found ammunition she likes to group reliably... and you are still trying to shave off another 1/4 inch or so off your groups...... swapping out pistons can and will shrink them some more, providing all the other procedures and parts have been done. Over on that U.S. m14 forum, TFL, Gus Fischer has an excellent article and explanation of gas piston affect on accuracy. Gus knows his stuff better than most and is a demi god armourer when it comes to these rifles ;) The sub moa krieger i refer to in previous post went thru a piston swap test and i found that the piston she liked was a well used one out of an HR 12(3) prohib i had purchased for parts. New pistons and titanium pistons were beat out , and that rifle still wears that well used HR piston.

the road to accuracy and the m14 can be expensive , frustrating, and exceptionally rewarding. And the bonus is there are many of us here who have gone down that road and can offer advice along the way. Have fun with it :rockOn:
 
i really like the look of the 2 m-14s in the pics and want to do something like that. Did those barrells get shortened? how much does a set up like that cost aprox?
 
Hearing all this great information is getting me all excited.
First order for parts will be this weekend.
Can someone recommend a good rear iron sight for her. I will be testing the rifle with optics and irons to see how it groups.

I look forward to this build and the m14 community that we have here on can.
For those of you with the knowledge about the m14 expect many questions from me. I want to build this thing to its full potential.

Tim
 
Tim,
You could look for an M1 Garand standard rear sight or a NM rear (M1 and M14 rear sights are the same). Brownells sells the Smith Ent NM rear sight but damn, they want some pile of cash for it.

timoram said:
Hearing all this great information is getting me all excited.
First order for parts will be this weekend.
Can someone recommend a good rear iron sight for her. I will be testing the rifle with optics and irons to see how it groups.

I look forward to this build and the m14 community that we have here on can.
For those of you with the knowledge about the m14 expect many questions from me. I want to build this thing to its full potential.

Tim
Click to expand...
 
J996 said:
Tim,
You could look for an M1 Garand standard rear sight or a NM rear (M1 and M14 rear sights are the same). Brownells sells the Smith Ent NM rear sight but damn, they want some pile of cash for it.
Click to expand...
Is there any benefit when comparing the SEI read sight and the national match rear sight that signifies the difference in price?

Tim
 
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