M-14 Blasphemy?

I noticed that the close up shots of the rifle in that trash talk article look like an old Chinese Poly Tech or Norinco M14S in Chu wood.

Explains everything ;) Kidding ofcourse :p

Seriously though the writer probably has never really shot a decently tuned M14 type like the ones issued as DMR rifles or the ones tuned by members of this board like Hungry to know what the M14 platform can do.

Kind of like that Guns and Ammo TV episode when they bashed the M14's reliability after trying to make it fire 110gr ammunition because they knew nothing about the rifles gas system.

Dimitri
 
Hooray! - An Intelligent Response!

So whether you call them M-305's or M-14's or M-1A's or GE's or Sony's ...a rose by any other name is still an M-14.

( one other small point...M-14 is a design type ..same as a 1911A1 ..or a Hi Power...regardless of who manufactures them..they are still that model of firearm ).

Y'know...
I compare this discussion to the one I had with a buddy discussing the automobile.

Consider this comparison for a moment:

Car/Truck = Battle Rifle or Pistol

Truck - 4x4, shortbox = M14 ----> Which is the platform, or model type.

Ford, Chev, Toyota, Nissan = Poly Tech, Norinco, Springfield, etc ----> Manufacturer ONLY

This discussion is like the Ford guys lining up against the Nissan or Dodge guys with the "mine is better than yours". In the end who cares which manufacturer makes your respective platform. If it starts, goes through the mud and has a heater; the rest is moot!

My manufacturer happens to be Poly Tech and they made my M14 platform, of which I am a happy owner!
 
Y'know...
I compare this discussion to the one I had with a buddy discussing the automobile.

Consider this comparison for a moment:

Car/Truck = Battle Rifle or Pistol

Truck - 4x4, shortbox = M14 ----> Which is the platform, or model type.

Ford, Chev, Toyota, Nissan = Poly Tech, Norinco, Springfield, etc ----> Manufacturer ONLY

This discussion is like the Ford guys lining up against the Nissan or Dodge guys with the "mine is better than yours". In the end who cares which manufacturer makes your respective platform. If it starts, goes through the mud and has a heater; the rest is moot!

My manufacturer happens to be Poly Tech and they made my M14 platform, of which I am a happy owner!




Nicely Put.:)
 
Would you buy a Chinese made Honda at Canadian tire?

No, I'd buy a Japanese or Canadian made Honda at Honda, actually.....jeez. Should read some labels at CT next time your there, just to make sure nothing your buying is made in China. I don't think you'll find much that isn't, but oh well....

I'd buy Springfield too, if it didn't cost 4 times as much.
 
I attended Hungry's M14 clinic on Sunday and my opinion of the Norinco rifles has changed dramatically. I don't like their wood or plastic stocks, and I will never likely own one but its hard to argue the value of these rifles.

I personally don't have a problem with paying more for a Springfield, personal preference. There are forged recievers available and even complete US made rifles for those like myself who care.

If I can I will buy a more expensive North American made product. The bottom line is you just can't make some things competatively in our country. Unfortunately the quality of many things made overseas leaves a lot to be desired.

There are no Canadian made Honda's. They may be assembled here but the components are made overseas to the best of my knowledge.
 
Last edited:
I attended Hungry's M14 clinic on Sunday and my opinion of the Norinco rifles has changed dramatically. I don't like their wood or plastic stocks, and I will never likely own one but its hard to argue the value of these rifles.

That's good to hear Seafury. Thanks for your input.
 
Its a tough issue, and no doubt it would be preferable to keep the processing and manufacturing jobs as close to home as possible. The problem is that the deal is already done. Once we allow X country access to our markets and then borrow money from them hand over fist (more a US thing I know) how do you close the door?

Ultimately it would require a massive change in public opinion. Essentially it means at the very least a termed abandonment of the consumer markets and a significant reduction in general standard of living, one that may never return. Additionally it means renegging on the majority of our international trade agreements, what would the ramification of that be? These issues are not simply surface level issues, like a house of cards finesse is required as the consequences of miscalculated actions could have immediate significant consequences the average Canadian isn't willing to deal with. Statistically consumers buy what to them is the best deal and because we have trade agreements with India, China, the US and others the best deals are often made there. Close the door and you'll keep Canadian Money in Canada but then they may choose not to buy our oil etc and either not invest their money here or maybe they'll just take what they want and give us lead.

For myself I buy as close to home as I can justify, but at the same time consider myself a realist. I own a Ford, its a nice American made car probably full of parts made around the world, the real kicker is I'm not an American and much of the profits from that purchase were sent there :D. Now if I bought a Honda Civic It would be at least assembled in Canada although the parts would likely come from the same variety of sources as my Ford and a good chunk of the profits would be sent to Japanese investors... as I said complex issues... Years ago our grandparents prattled on about Japanese and German made products, now we go on about Chinese made ones as if it were that simple.

Should we re-examine our position WRT international trade? IMHO YES but that extends not only to China but the US etc as well.

The Norc/Polytech guns are great, in fact they are fantastic. Arguably superior to Springfield (which uses Asian sourced parts BTW ;) ) ever since Springfield ran out of USGI parts. Buy the gun and spend the extra $800 or so on ammo, cause in the end the result will be the same only you'll get to shoot a lot more. If the Chinese made gun bothers you then buy the Springfield or Marstar's Eurotrash version if it comes out.

Just remember the more money we send to China the more they can lend to the US so that Americans can have that great "Canadian Healthcare". :evil: :D
 
The Norc/Polytech guns are great, in fact they are fantastic. Arguably superior to Springfield (which uses Asian sourced parts BTW ;) ) ever since Springfield ran out of USGI parts. Buy the gun and spend the extra $800 or so on ammo, cause in the end the result will be the same only you'll get to shoot a lot more. If the Chinese made gun bothers you then buy the Springfield or Marstar's Eurotrash version if it comes out.

$800? Try $1,500 more. Cheapest NIB Springfield is over $2,000 from what I can see. I don't see how they can justify that.
 
$800? Try $1,500 more. Cheapest NIB Springfield is over $2,000 from what I can see. I don't see how they can justify that.

they justify that by 1 their name- they're treading on the reputation of the old springfield armoury, which did turn out some quality guns-
2 aside from custom, they think they're THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN- most folks have heard of springfield, but only those"in the know" have heard of the others
they've always been expensive , period- no matter what it was- they say it's quality, but time has proven that THEY're JUST PLAIN GREEDY
 
Just remember the more money we send to China the more they can lend to the US so that Americans can have that great "Canadian Healthcare".

That's a perspective I never considered before. :D

I'm still waiting to see what these Italian M-14 clones are going to be like. As it is, I like my hybrid...it's multinational and composed of parts from three continents: Europe (sights), Asia (receiver/barrel group), North America.
 
Here is the deal from my perspective

First a little background on me. I work for a precision manufacturer Of aerospace components. I routinely set up and operate cnc machines about 20 of them. they make parts to tenths. And it's not that hard. There is no way that the chinese factories can't do the same. and they are. A CNC machining center will do work to the same level of precision whether it is in Bejing or Baltimore or Barrie. With the lower labor costs the chinese can spend money on more frequent tool changes and better steel. And CMM units. And skilled operators. The proliferation of top level manufacturing technology has made the country of origin of products almost moot. Made in america doesn't always mean good and made in china doesn't always mean bad.
 
Exactly, whats really separating us right now is taxation. We are steadily creating a less and less business friendly climate with massive social spending and high taxation.
 
With the lower labor costs the chinese can spend money on more frequent tool changes and better steel.

You are kidding yourself if you think they are willing to spend that money. Try getting Chinese material certified, you'll get no where as its effectively pot metal.

Dimitri
 
You are kidding yourself if you think they are willing to spend that money. Try getting Chinese material certified, you'll get no where as its effectively pot metal.

Dimitri

maybe 10 years ago and maybe even 5 but its a country of a billion people and when the recession hit the population of Canada was laid off there in the space of a couple months. Point being that their industry is incredibly diverse with the high end being developed as quickly as they can. They aren't stupid, they saved money in the good times and are using the lull of the bad times to increase their quality. While we've been forced into spending borrowed money on EI benefits by retard left wing politicians they are spending saved money on positioning.

The quality they are putting out now is as good as anyone else in many respects. When it comes to machining its no accident that they focused so aggressively on injection molding.
 
You are kidding yourself if you think they are willing to spend that money. Try getting Chinese material certified, you'll get no where as its effectively pot metal.

Dimitri

IMHO tat is an uninformed remark. For starters, the Chinese source most of their iron and steel from outside their own country - much of it is the exact same steel we buy.

Furthermore, the Chinese have aircraft carries, nuclear submarines and a space program. They are as capable as anyone else to produce high-end products. It's all a matter of what the consumer is willing to pay and all to frequently Chinese industry is sold short by our own bias toward wanting to pay only the lowest dollar for Chinese goods. If you ask them to make a rifle that retails for $400 - that is exactly what you will get. If you ask them to make one that retails for $1500 you'll get that too and it will be on par with a $1500 rifle made here, if not better due to lower labor cost. But nobody will spend that on a rifle with China stamped into it, no matter how good.

A good analogy is Japan. In the 1970's - nobody would be caught dead driving a junky Honda or Toyota. They now have the greatest market share in Canada and are regarded as the benchmark for QA/QC in automotive series production. What changed? Time and buyers with good stories to tell. Those companies haven't changed their quality capability one lick since the 1970's - it was always there for anyone willing to pay for it.

The same will prove true of the Chinese - just wait 15 years and you'll be very surprised.
 
For starters, the Chinese source most of their iron and steel from outside their own country

That they do, in the form of scrap however, not new virgin material. They "recycle" it, and you'll be lucky to find a piece of material from China that looks like it matches any known standard, or material that is actually what they were asked to use.

Tell them you want a die out of D2 (or other decent tool steel required for the application, cough up 80% of the cost of the die as compared to making it here, and you'll end up with a case hardened steel, which does not correspond to anything in specific.

The analogy to the Japanese is not valid, as the Japanese never took these kinds of shortcuts. And Toyota has changed their quality standards since by the way. After they came to the North American market they adopted Fords production methods and now calls it "The Toyota Way". But whether or not its got a new name on it, its nothing new its been in use since the 1910's with the Model T.

Dimitri
 
Back
Top Bottom