M-14 in Afghanistan

I like my chinese m14 clone.(wish I could have a real one)

I want an AR...I am not a soldier but respect what 'those who do' say 100%.

that is all I really have to add.

Carry on gents...
 
Morpheus,

The cost of one modernized M14 is easily $10K LESS than one M110 after the kit, training and other elements.

With the economic situation the way it is here in the states, price is a real issue.

I think your missing the point I am making. The system cost is $10K but that is including optics, suppressor, rails, and all the applicable accessories. It also includes spare parts, and the technical data package. I think you will find, that any system, not just the rifle will be very close in pricing. Lets make sure we are not comparing apples and oranges. It is more than just a rifle and a stock. It is other stuff to make the package. I have submitted systems for government bids and it is never just a rifle....the technical data package release is also worth a great deal of money as well if that is required in the contract.

The economic situation is bad around the world. The US Army at war is not going to go cheap on a system that is already in the field...just like it won't stop the upgrade of the helmet and body armour which are slated in FY 09-10. Missile defense....sure....but troop level stuff...I don't think so. Just my take on it with my experience on US and Canadian Gov contract proposals...
 
ill 2nd that - i respect the opinions of those who do the job and work in the industry

it seems like the contract with KAC for the MK110 is probably so far down the track that they wont cancel it. military funding isnt going to dry up, it will always be there.

i believe its new projects that havent been started or are in their infancy will be the ones to be passed by the wayside
.. thats how we work in my business, we would never cancel a project that is already to the production stage, maybe just limit the number of units coming in for the time being. but new projects that havent reached their final stages are the ones that get dropped or frozen.

as for the extra training.. the MK110 is an AR Platform .. all of the troops are familiar with it already
 
Fenix.NZ
That makes real sence but as far as Morpheus32 tring to say that the m14 is in the same price range as a KAC M110...
I still think he is
:onCrack:
And simpleton were did you get my pic?
LoL!!!
:nest:
 
Facts:

M14 was produced in the 60s....because that is what the Govt ordered.

M110 is produced in 2009s because that is what the govt ordered yesterday.

I think the customer knows what it wants better than u or I.

Anything said or argued beyond that is pointless....

But you are free to keep praising the m14 like a golden cow if it gives you a chubby...just dont bash the ones that dont and that have seen-been beyond their city limits.

KPA
 
H20_Man
:agree:
I think this Morpheus32:jerkit: is in the wrong thread perhaps the wrong planet. If I was wanting a close quarters semi-auto rifle, hands down it would have to be the AK-47. It put's holes through the tree, sand bag, wall, ect. As for long range semi auto all I can say is there was a man once that wrote the book on the art of sniping. I belive his name was "Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Norman Hathcock II". The inventor of putting a .50 cal BMG round in a rifle & 30 years later you get the "Barrett M82A1/M107 .50 BMG Semi-Auto Rifle".
P.S. Morpheus32 just incase you wern't up to speed on current world events. THE US GOVERNMENT IS BROKE! And Il Bomb Ya is to busing putting people in power that don't pay taxes that will alocate the fund's for your 10K rifle. Sorry but who is going to finace your great grand kids debt for these rifle's?

Sweet! This thread needed a little comedy!
 
Actually we roll out more than 75 SASS a month now.
With the SASS comes a HARDIGG case, the suppressor, mags, drag bag, Leupold Scope, bipod etc.

Fact remains the M-14 is no longer a viable platform, it may be a hobbiest dream, but its not a practical operational platform.

Secondly the Mk17 (SCAR-H) is a USSOC item, so it can replace the Mk11, but not the SASS, as the SASS is Big Army.
 
Actually we roll out more than 75 SASS a month now.
With the SASS comes a HARDIGG case, the suppressor, mags, drag bag, Leupold Scope, bipod etc.

Fact remains the M-14 is no longer a viable platform, it may be a hobbiest dream, but its not a practical operational platform.

Secondly the Mk17 (SCAR-H) is a USSOC item, so it can replace the Mk11, but not the SASS, as the SASS is Big Army.

Thanks Kevin. I just spent the last 30 minutes reviewing the award contract for the rifle. The requirements are very specific, in particular the mean rounds between failure and the usable ammo. The optical requirements, particularly the compatiblity and performance are rather demanding. The weight requirements and performance requirements are rather demanding. KAC gave the TDP for cheap! To note I think the cost of getting the M14 to meet the requirements would be high. You could not slap a SAGE or Troy on this and go to town.
 
Fenix.NZ
That makes real sence but as far as Morpheus32 tring to say that the m14 is in the same price range as a KAC M110...
I still think he is
:onCrack:

There is no need to get personal about this. Please see my comments and do some research on the requirements of the contract and the contractual pricing structure. Firing a 7.62mm cartridge is but one of many requirements in the contract. As I said, from my experience including bidding on US and Canadian weapons contracts, the pricing structure is alot more than the simple $ value. There is destructive testing in the contract as well specific requirements to achieve coding of the weapon system. Even if you entered an M14 you would have to go through the same process and the same expense. That what has to be done for weapons systems. Like I said, there is more to it than just a price. Your looking at it simplistically with the cost of a surplus M14 with some add ons vs a contractual system.

I am a big fan of the M14, and I own a number of them. That all being said, in my professional opinion, the M110 is a better rifle with more capablity and sustainablity over the long run. This rifle will be in service for a number of years.

I have no problem having a discussion on the merits of one system over another. Lets just do it civilly. No need to attach me personally as you did right off in your first post.

I am always open to discussions, but dig into the meat a bit here before you start calling me names.

Cheers

Jeff
 
Morpheus, I as well am a big fan of the m14 but I have looked at the m110 and figure that it looks alot like a M16/AR10 and thus bad guys will not be able to tell the difference between the M4 and the M110 until they are hit by the round. I saw alot of M14's over in Afghan mostly with the 101st they all had Sage EBR stocks on them and Leupold scopes though. I like the power of a 7.62 but for humping all day long give me the 5.56.

Kevin you find a way to sell them up here in Canada and get them non restricted!?!? I just may have to buy 1 or 2. oh ya throw in all the gucci gear too!!! Suppressor incl.
I know pipe dream right?
 
Further to my last, all you internet commandos until you have been there, done that like some of the guys here. Just shut the #### pump under your nose!!! Some people here have seen actual combat and I am not talking about call of duty 4!!! some guys have actually fired rounds in anger. They maybe, just maybe, might know a bit more about combat and the weapons of combat, than some one who read about combat and ballistic tables on the internet!!!
 
Further to my last, all you internet commandos until you have been there, done that like some of the guys here. Just shut the s**t pump under your nose!!! Some people here have seen actual combat and I am not talking about call of duty 4!!! some guys have actually fired rounds in anger. They maybe, just maybe, might know a bit more about combat and the weapons of combat, than some one who read about combat and ballistic tables on the internet!!!

Hey man, while they were off playing soldier in BFN, I was here, in the FIRST WORLD, with the entire internet at my fingertips doing research! I have read like fifty articles in gun magazines, I think I am a little more qualified to say what the army needs than a bunch of professional soldiers who just use the gear all day and see the results first hand!

:nest:
 
US Army sees urgent need for 'longer-range' infantry weapon. 01 Aug 2008

I think your missing the point I am making. The system cost is $10K but that is including optics, suppressor, rails, and all the applicable accessories.

Nope. The true cost to the US taxpayer for each M110 is $14K or $15K including optics, suppressor, rails, and all the applicable accessories.

The M14 is still viable and will continue to serve for several additional years. I fully expect someone that works for KAC to say the opposite.
 
US Army sees urgent need for 'longer-range' infantry weapon. 01 Aug 2008



Nope. The true cost to the US taxpayer for each M110 is $14K or $15K including optics, suppressor, rails, and all the applicable accessories.

The M14 is still viable and will continue to serve for several additional years. I fully expect someone that works for KAC to say the opposite.

H20,

This is what I am doing for a living right now. Google the contract. It is public. The contract number is: W15QKN-05-C-0689. The unit cost for the rifles is $9729 per system complete and delivered to the US Gov.

Have a careful look at the Statement of Work (SOW). It is rather detailed. I beleive that an M14 could have been submitted but alot of work would have needed to be done to ensure it was able to meet the bid requirements. If you can't find it, PM me and I will email it to you. There are associated costs with submitting a bid and as you will read, there is alot to the SOW. I can help you read through the standard US Gov clauses....some that have no cost associated with them...some that have a cost.

No one is arguing the need for longer range engagement capablities. No one is arguing the M14 is filling the void currently in the US Mil capablity as pointed out by the article. What it tells is the costing within current budgets to sustain the M14 in its current role. The US Gov is not maintaining the M14. There is no move afoot to go to a larger caliber weapon in the Big Army. The money is only for keeping what they have not providing a rifle for 10 years from now.

What seems to be at stake is the "sacred cow" status of the M14. It is a fine rifle but it is WWII technology updated. I love the rifle and as you know, I have a collection of them. That does not mean as a professional, I blind myself with a desire to continue it life. What is important is the performance, lifecycle sustainment and utility. Training costs also are important. Cost ie using a surplus rifle is not the deciding factor in the assessment criteria.

The M14 is still viable, and is filling a void. It will be replaced by the M110 as numbers from the factory reach the field force....
 
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H2OMan - I'm not sure where you are pulling the 14-15K number from.

As Morpheus has posted the open source contract price for the kit.
M110SASSPosterMay08.jpg
 
Gents,

For those interested. The solicitation number for the request for proposals was W15QKN-05-R-0433. This was released in late 04 and amended in 05. It outlines the SOW and the selection criteria.
 
H20,

This is what I am doing for a living right now. Google the contract. It is public. The contract number is: W15QKN-05-C-0689. The unit cost for the rifles is $9729 per system complete and delivered to the US Gov.

Thank you for that information Morpheus.

The requirements are very specific, in particular the mean rounds between failure and the usable ammo. The optical requirements, particularly the compatiblity and performance are rather demanding. The weight requirements and performance requirements are rather demanding.

To note I think the cost of getting the M14 to meet the requirements would be high.

Apples-to-Apples: The cost of getting the M14 to meet the requirements is thousands less than the M110.
I don't know the exact number but armed with your $9729 price... $6K less per rifle is a realistic number.
 
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