M-96 vs SL8

UncleWalther

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I am interested in buying an SL8, but I am also considering an M-96. I like both rifles, for different reasons. They are roughly the same price, but I can't decide which one to get.

If any of you have experience with both these rifles, I would really like to hear about the relative merits of each.

Thanks!
 
I'm quite happy with my SL-8.

Very comfortable to shoot, very accurate (around MOA at 300 meters! with factory match ammo)

I'm into mine for the better part of $2700 with optics/rings.

NavyShooter
 
NavyShooter said:
I'm into mine for the better part of $2700 with optics/rings.

NavyShooter

smiley_freak.gif


You better have a SIG too.:confused:
 
I have owned both (M96 and SL-8) and currently have neither.
All of the 'contenders' have similar attributes.. non-restricted, pricey, 'clean'
gas systems....they also may both be obsolete at the time of this writing.
M96..Good..Left sided cocking handle (assuming you're right handed), uses
readily available AR mags, easy to takedown and service..
M96..Bad.. ho-hum trigger, mediocre accuaracy, comes with nothing!
SL-8..Good.. ambi cocking handle, accurate, easy to service..
SL-8..Bad..'numb' trigger, f**cking horrible thumbhole stock,come with ####!
And that's why, I sold or traded them away, got a Sig Black Special ( and later, it's little brother, the CQB) and lived happily everafter!
The Sig has a beautiful trigger, is accurate, and has all of the advantages and
none of the disadvantages of the others.I can forgive the right sided cocking
handle, and the fact is was 25 - 30% more expensive.. however, once you
factor in the cost of an optics rail, the cost differential is less.
If you have a chance to handle and shoot all three at the same time, I would
have to wager that, if you can't 'swing' the extra coin to buy the Sig, you
would go home and sell/hock whatever you have to do make it happen!
 
Between these two, I`d definatly take the Robarms M96.
All the cool kids need one of each.
 
OZZ said:
Between these two, I`d definatly take the Robarms M96.
All the cool kids need one of each.

I must agree. The Robarm M96 wins hands-down versus the SL-8 for ergonomics, magazine compatability, and adaptability (with a bit of low-priced imagination).

Having said that, the Swissarms PE-90 blow both the M96 and SL-8 away in every single department less adaptability (for the M-96). But the attributes of the PE-90 are such that the M-96's flexibility is rendered a minor comparative point.

I own the M-96 and PE-90. I have fired and extensively handled the SL-8.

Just one guy's opinion...
 
I had an SL-8 for a few months, but the thumbhole stock irritated me more and more each time I used it. Finally sold it and bought the Sig PE90. The Sig is 5x the rifle for only 1.5X the price of the H&K. I had no problem with the Sl8 plastic stock and I liked the ambi cocking lever and ease of stripping, but the PE90 is in a completely different class. I noticed a PE90 in the exchange forum for a good price.
 
I own a HK SL8, USC, sig black special, classic green, and CQB. All of these rifles beat the M96 hands down and thats why I dont own one anymore.;)
 
Quoted from Bartok in another thread:

Bartok5 said:
For my money, the M96 is extremely good value for the money. I say this as an extremely satisfied owner of the M96 dating back to before they were readily available on the Canadian market. Mine was one of the first two examples imported into Canada. The other one was Mr Wolverine's personal demo rifle. I'd hazard to say that I am pretty familiar with the platform, and have put it through the ringer. I have yet to be disappointed with either the firearm or my investment.

I urged Mr Wolverine to enter into a distributorship with Robinson Armaments because I recognized the M96 as an entirely "new" non-OIC'ed rifle that would appeal to military firearms collectors. Quite frankly, the M96 was (and remains) the closest that a Canadian would ever come to owning a close approximation of Eugene Stoner's greatest design achievement - a modular firearms system based on a common receiver that could serve as everything from a carbine to a medium machinegun. I simply had to have one.

My historical/design interest was such that I would have been satisfied had the M96 been a mediocre rifle. But as it turns out, the M96 is far, far more. It is in fact, an ultra-reliable and extremely ergonomic firearm that performs far better than advertised and discussed on various "pooh-pooh" discussion boards. I've put more than 5,000 rounds through M-96s, and have experienced a grand total of 3 failures to fire. I don't "baby" my rifles, and often go in excess of 500 rounds between cleanings. The reliability of the operating system is exceptional. The ergonomics are excellent (in my view). The 2-stage trigger blows away that of the AR competition. The stainless steel fabrication results in near-zero maintenance requirements. The modularity and adaptability of the platform are second to none - notwithstanding the fact that Robarm hasn't produced a bunch of the adaptations and accessories that were promised. So what? Even a techno-boob like me was able to fabricate a folding stock for the M96 using a surplus Galil system. Now ACE stocks manufactures after-market folders at a reasonable price.

I bought my M96 with the expectation that the "Bren" mag-top-feed conversion, a short gas-system and barrel conversion, and a belt-feed conversion would give me a fully-realized example of the classic Stoner 63A "modular weapon system". The Bren kit was marketed, the "carbine" gas system and barrel were marketed, but the belt-feed kit has yet to materialize. And now Robarm is consumed with getting the XCR to market, which throws the entire belt-feed project into doubt.

So, am I bummed out regarding the apparent stall in M96 development? Not in the least!

I still have the single most reliable 5.56mm rifle in my personal inventory - and I do also own a Swissarms Classic Green. The M96's accuracy is merely acceptable (2 MOA) thanks to its quick-change barrel. So what? That is better than good enough for my needs (or ability). Where the M96 really shines is in its inherent reliability, durability, ease of maintenance, ergonomics, etc. In those aspects, the M96 is simply outstanding.

Don't be put off by the fact that Robarm had to upgrade the M96 op-rod, bolt-carrier extension, and barrel-latch. Those minor upgrades were designed and offered to owners in record time, based upon direct user feedback. In my mind, that simply reflects an admirable manufacturer regard to the needs of the customer. In direct comparison, it seems to me that the AR-series has been in constant upgrade mode since the early 1960s. Something to consider, eh?

All of the above to say that the M96 is a darned fine rifle in its bone-stock configuration. I personally wouldn't continue to own one if it weren't. My ARs (yes, I own several) tend to collect dust in the safe these days. But somehow my M96 always ends up at the range with me. 'Nuff said about that....

FWIW,

Mark C
 
This really is not a good comparison or debate, because you are comparing a prooven battle rifle (civilian version) with a sporting rifle.
 
Brian46 said:
This really is not a good comparison or debate, because you are comparing a prooven battle rifle (civilian version) with a sporting rifle.

I will be the first to admit that my comparison was based on civilian ownership and civilian range use of the two systems in question. In that context (and in my humble view), the M96 represents very good value for the investment. I fire my M96 far more often than I shoot my Colt "AR15A2 Sporter II" or my Pac-West Arms "AR-15 Commando". And that's a fact.

Were I going to war (again) tomorrow? I would quite happily accept an issued C-8 heavy-barrelled flat-top. I cannot honestly say that I would as willingly carry an M96 into harm's way. As we all know, the M96 is not (at least not yet) a militarily-proven design. Unless you associate the M96 with the great success that U.S. Navy Seals enjoyed in employing the same basic design during the Vietnam War in the form of the Stoner 63 and 63A modular weapon system.... But I digress.

I will be the first to admit that my personal perceptions are somewhat coloured, having successfully carried a C-8 on combat operations back in 2002. It served me well, and as a result I can't refute the system. It definitely "craps where it eats", and is therefore more maintenance-intensive than any piston-driven system on the military market. But given reasonable maintenance it never failed me on operations. And that is why you will never hear me condemn the Stoner "AR-15" system. But that doesn't mean that it is ideal - not by a long, long measure.

I honestly believe that there are numerous 5.56mm designs out there which are far superior to the 5.56mm AR-15. After all, the AR-15 series was based on the original AR-10 - where the "crap where you eat" nature of the direct impingement system was not an issue thanks to the larger dimensions/mass of the 7.62x51mm NATO-scaled working parts. Reduced to 5.56mm however, there were (and continue to be) reliability and maintenance issues associated with the AR-15 family. There's no getting around it. As originally issued, designed and "marketed" to U.S. Army soldiers, the M-16 was an abject failure. More than one U.S. soldier died as a direct result of the failure of his/her personal weapon. The only reason that the AR-15 series of firearms is currently preeminent in the Western world is thanks to 45 years of concerted effort to mitigate the fundamental shortcomings. That, combined with a terrific marketing program backed by heavily subsidized U.S. sales (or outright give-aways) to friendly nations.

Are the direct-gas AR-15-based rifles and carbines accurate, reliable, etc? Sure they are.....these days. Thanks to 45 years of ceaseless U.S. government-sponsored efforts to make them so.

Are there other operating systems which are instrinsically more reliable? Yes, there are. The AR-18/180 immediately springs to mind, upon which the G-36 operating system was directly based. There are others. The fact of the matter is that the AR-15 family has benefitted from 45 years of government-supported developmental improvement. No other firearms design has enjoyed the same (perhaps misguided?) support. Yet other designs continue to give the AR-15 series a serious run for their money - even designs that have not undergone any substantive design improvement since their inception in the 1960s (AR-18), 1970s (FNC, AUG, Galil), 1980s (Daewoo, SAR-88, etc), or 1990s (SIG).

If you want a "combat proven" 5.56mm self-loader for your civilian range sessions? Then by all means, buy yourself an AR-15 in one of its many guises. I own several civilian versions, and have carried the military version on combat operations with few complaints. But these days my civilian AR-15s sit in the safe because they are fundamentally boring. Everyone and his dog owns one.

If you want something a tad different (and I would argue better-suited to civilian ownership/range use), then I would suggest the M-96, Swissarms PE-90, or even an AR-180B. The piston-driven systems are FAR easier to maintain, just as simple to operate, and (give or take) every bit as accurate.

As stated earlier, I have no qualms whatsoever about my M96 purchase. As a recreational rifle it has served me extremely well. So much so, that my AR-15's have been collecting dust in the safe for the past 5 years while my M96 and (more recently) PE-90 invariably end up at the range....

On a side note, if you want to talk "prooven battle rifles (civilian version)" you might want to talk about the military-issued USGI M14 versus the civilian semi-automatic-only Norinco M305. Or the military-issue HK G3 versus the civilian semi-automatic-only HK 91. Rifles chambered in full-sized calibres such as 7.62x51mm NATO are commonly referred to "Battle Rifles".

Conversely, select-fire military rifles chambered for "intermediate" cartridges such as the 5.56x45mm are commonly referred to as "assault rifles". That said, their semi-automatic civilian versions are nothing more than "sporting rifles", regardless of how "evil" or "battle-proven" they may appear to the uneducated layman.

I'm guessing that perhaps you meant to say "battle-proven rifles" versus "proven battle-rifles"? No offence whatseover intended Brian, but when it comes to such things semantics are important.

As always, just my $.02

FWIW
 
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NavyShooter said:
I'm quite happy with my SL-8.

Very comfortable to shoot, very accurate (around MOA at 300 meters! with factory match ammo)

I'm into mine for the better part of $2700 with optics/rings.

NavyShooter

Yup, while I'm on the other side of the fence, I'm in for near $4000 on one, the other is stock.

Scarecrow said:
smiley_freak.gif


You better have a SIG too.:confused:

And nope. :) (Not yet anyhow, 1919 and H&K purchases have ways of fouling plans and since the Swiss Arms doesn't do anything that the rifles I already have do well... You get the idea :) )
 
Bartok5 said:
I will be the first to admit that my comparison was based on civilian ownership and civilian range use of the two systems in question. In that context (and in my humble view), the M96 represents very good value for the investment. I fire my M96 far more often than I shoot my Colt "AR15A2 Sporter II" or my Pac-West Arms "AR-15 Commando". And that's a fact.

Were I going to war (again) tomorrow? I would quite happily accept an issued C-8 heavy-barrelled flat-top. I cannot honestly say that I would as willingly carry an M96 into harm's way. As we all know, the M96 is not (at least not yet) a militarily-proven design. Unless you associate the M96 with the great success that U.S. Navy Seals enjoyed in employing the same basic design during the Vietnam War in the form of the Stoner 63 and 63A modular weapon system.... But I digress.

I will be the first to admit that my personal perceptions are somewhat coloured, having successfully carried a C-8 on combat operations back in 2002. It served me well, and as a result I can't refute the system. It definitely "craps where it eats", and is therefore more maintenance-intensive than any piston-driven system on the military market. But given reasonable maintenance it never failed me on operations. And that is why you will never hear me condemn the Stoner "AR-15" system. But that doesn't mean that it is ideal - not by a long, long measure.

I honestly believe that there are numerous 5.56mm designs out there which are far superior to the 5.56mm AR-15. After all, the AR-15 series was based on the original AR-10 - where the "crap where you eat" nature of the direct impingement system was not an issue thanks to the larger dimensions/mass of the 7.62x51mm NATO-scaled working parts. Reduced to 5.56mm however, there were (and continue to be) reliability and maintenance issues associated with the AR-15 family. There's no getting around it. As originally issued, designed and "marketed" to U.S. Army soldiers, the M-16 was an abject failure. More than one U.S. soldier died as a direct result of the failure of his/her personal weapon. The only reason that the AR-15 series of firearms is currently preeminent in the Western world is thanks to 45 years of concerted effort to mitigate the fundamental shortcomings. That, combined with a terrific marketing program backed by heavily subsidized U.S. sales (or outright give-aways) to friendly nations.

Are the direct-gas AR-15-based rifles and carbines accurate, reliable, etc? Sure they are.....these days. Thanks to 45 years of ceaseless U.S. government-sponsored efforts to make them so.

Are there other operating systems which are instrinsically more reliable? Yes, there are. The AR-18/180 immediately springs to mind, upon which the G-36 operating system was directly based. There are others. The fact of the matter is that the AR-15 family has benefitted from 45 years of government-supported developmental improvement. No other firearms design has enjoyed the same (perhaps misguided?) support. Yet other designs continue to give the AR-15 series a serious run for their money - even designs that have not undergone any substantive design improvement since their inception in the 1960s (AR-18), 1970s (FNC, AUG, Galil), 1980s (Daewoo, SAR-88, etc), or 1990s (SIG).

If you want a "combat proven" 5.56mm self-loader for your civilian range sessions? Then by all means, buy yourself an AR-15 in one of its many guises. I own several civilian versions, and have carried the military version on combat operations with few complaints. But these days my civilian AR-15s sit in the safe because they are fundamentally boring. Everyone and his dog owns one.

If you want something a tad different (and I would argue better-suited to civilian ownership/range use), then I would suggest the M-96, Swissarms PE-90, or even an AR-180B. The piston-driven systems are FAR easier to maintain, just as simple to operate, and (give or take) every bit as accurate.

As stated earlier, I have no qualms whatsoever about my M96 purchase. As a recreational rifle it has served me extremely well. So much so, that my AR-15's have been collecting dust in the safe for the past 5 years while my M96 and (more recently) PE-90 invariably end up at the range....

On a side note, if you want to talk "prooven battle rifles (civilian version)" you might want to talk about the military-issued USGI M14 versus the civilian semi-automatic-only Norinco M305. Or the military-issue HK G3 versus the civilian semi-automatic-only HK 91. Rifles chambered in full-sized calibres such as 7.62x51mm NATO are commonly referred to "Battle Rifles".

Conversely, select-fire military rifles chambered for "intermediate" cartridges such as the 5.56x45mm are commonly referred to as "assault rifles". That said, their semi-automatic civilian versions are nothing more than "sporting rifles", regardless of how "evil" or "battle-proven" they may appear to the uneducated layman.

I'm guessing that perhaps you meant to say "battle-proven rifles" versus "proven battle-rifles"? No offence whatseover intended Brian, but when it comes to such things semantics are important.

As always, just my $.02

FWIW
As far as the G36 is concerned, It's grandaddy is the G3 not the AR 18/180 sure it may have similar design characteristics but HK has never confirmed that it's rifle was based on the AR. Yes I meant to say "battle proven rifles" sorry if my semantics offended you. And if I am not mistaken, the M96 is made from stainless steel that would be prone to overheating and accuracy problems after a few magazines have been gone through quickly. I don't know about you, but when I go to the range I like to shoot not spend time playing with even one FTF or FTE which I have never had with the SL8.

Just my two cents
 
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