M-96 vs SL8

Brian46 said:
As far as the G36 is concerned, It's grandaddy is the G3 not the AR 18/180 sure it may have similar design characteristics but HK has never confirmed that it's rifle was based on the AR. Yes I meant to say "battle proven rifles" sorry if my semantics offended you. And if I am not mistaken, the M96 is made from stainless steel that would be prone to overheating and accuracy problems after a few magazines have been gone through quickly. I don't know about you, but when I go to the range I like to shoot not spend time playing with even one FTF or FTE which I have never had with the SL8.

Just my two cents
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I've yet to have a single FTF or FTE in either of my M96's... I had an SL8-4 hang up once on me though (it was 45gr Win white box, a finnicky round, but the M96's eat them fine). Not saying either is better, both are stone reliable, but just poking holes in your assanine hidden argument that somehow you will end up with FTF's and FTE's if you shoot an M96... Both mine don't miss a bloody beat... Better than the many AR's I've had. Buy one, take it to the range for 500 rounds, and let me know how many times you get a FTF or FTE... ;)

Oh, and the M96 receivers don't crack when you use the bolt stop. :) And they are more confortable to shoot than an SL8, I don't know anyone who would argue otherwise.

A last point; stainless handles and dissipates heat VERY well, it has a higher heat capacity than aluminum, and doesn't insulate like polymers. I would argue that the M96 is more adept at continued fire than the SL8.
 
Brian 46, have you ever handled a G-36?

How about a G-3?

How about an AR-18?

I have not handled an M-96, so I really cannot comment on them, however, I have handled all of the above rifles.

There is a much more direct lineage to the AR-18 than the G-3 in the G-36.

Simply look at the bolt-heads. Does the G-3 have a rotating bolt-head? No, it uses the classic Delayed Roller locking system that dates back to the MG-42 and prior!

The AR-18 and G-36 are both gas piston driven rotating bolt-head system rifles.

Here's a quote from the "Modern Firearms" page on the G-36:
From the technical point of view, the G36 is a radical departure from all the previous HK rifles, based on the proven G3 roller-delayed system. The G36 is a conventional gas operated, selective fire rifle, made from most modern materials and using most modern technologies.
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http://world.guns.ru/assault/as14-e.htm

Bold print for emphasis is mine.

NS
 
Ardent said:
A last point; stainless handles and dissipates heat VERY well, it has a higher heat capacity than aluminum, and doesn't insulate like polymers. I would argue that the M96 is more adept at continued fire than the SL8.
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How would that make the m96 more adept to continuted fire? Aluminum may have a much lower melting point but it still sits arount 660 Celius. Are you saying that the rifle is going to get that hot? I doubt it. As to stainless dissipating heat it doesn't even come close to aluminum.The way I see it if you were in combat firing a burst and then having a very short cooling period aluminum would last longer as it would dissipate heat faster. I would venture a guess that polymer is a disadvantage as you indicated as it would not act like a heat sink drawing away the heat from the metal components. That being said I think all of that is negligable in choice for a rifle for sporting purposes. If you can overheat any rifle with 5 round mags I would love to see it. Either you are an amazing loader or you have a very large collection of mags. Just my opinion though your mileage may vary.
 
NavyShooter said:
Brian 46, have you ever handled a G-36?

How about a G-3?

How about an AR-18?

I have not handled an M-96, so I really cannot comment on them, however, I have handled all of the above rifles.

There is a much more direct lineage to the AR-18 than the G-3 in the G-36.

Simply look at the bolt-heads. Does the G-3 have a rotating bolt-head? No, it uses the classic Delayed Roller locking system that dates back to the MG-42 and prior!

The AR-18 and G-36 are both gas piston driven rotating bolt-head system rifles.

Here's a quote from the "Modern Firearms" page on the G-36:


http://world.guns.ru/assault/as14-e.htm

Bold print for emphasis is mine.

NS
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In my post all I was getting at was that HK has never admitted to copying the AR 18/180 or deriving the G36 from it's design.
 
Ardent said:
A last point; stainless handles and dissipates heat VERY well, it has a higher heat capacity than aluminum, and doesn't insulate like polymers. I would argue that the M96 is more adept at continued fire than the SL8.
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I was directy talking about the barrel nothing else. If stainless steel was such a great dissipater of heat and great barrel material, why is it not used on every assault rifle, SMG, or for that fact heavy machine guns??. Or how about what could be argued as the most reliable battle rifle in the world AK, Stainless?? I don't think so.
 
Ardent said:
I've yet to have a single FTF or FTE in either of my M96's... I had an SL8-4 hang up once on me though (it was 45gr Win white box, a finnicky round, but the M96's eat them fine). Not saying either is better, both are stone reliable, but just poking holes in your assanine hidden argument that somehow you will end up with FTF's and FTE's if you shoot an M96... Both mine don't miss a bloody beat... Better than the many AR's I've had. Buy one, take it to the range for 500 rounds, and let me know how many times you get a FTF or FTE... ;)
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Just look in the other M96 thread in this section and you have you're answer from
dingle said:
I bought mine for about $2500 new from wolverine supplies. I've run about 250+ rounds through it, with only 2 failure to feeds so far (both in the first 20 rounds ever shot).
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Brian46 said:
In my post all I was getting at was that HK has never admitted to copying the AR 18/180 or deriving the G36 from it's design.
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You said the G36's granddady is the the G3. It isnt. G3 and G36 have completely different lineage.
 
Brian46 said:
Yes, The G3 is the Grandady of the G series of rifles, I know the G36 is a different animal inside.
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Actually it was the Spanish CEMTE Rifle that was the grandfather to the G-3 although the CEMTE was a German Design it was Built,Tested and Produced years before the German Army Adopted the G3 as it's main battle rifle.
 
From another thread I posted in but useful here still, and as to the AK remark, the AK is made of steel. Stainless or not matters little.

Ardent said:
Good point. :)

Stainless can "hold more heat" than aluminum (and especially polymers!), and while this may initially seem negative in a knee jerk type reaction, it is actually quite positive. By being able to "hold more heat" stainless and other steels take longer to heat up, as given the same amount of energy input steel's temperature will rise less than aluminum's for a given volume (like a firearm's receiver).

Polymer is another case entirely, and for all objective purposes we can sideline its heat capacity as near nill, thus "insulating" all metal parts contained inside that heat up during firing, preventing them from dissipating their heat as well (like an SL8). This ties into the concepts of heat "sinks" if you're at all familiar with them. Hope I'm not getting too technical here...

As well, conduction ties in here, that is the ability to "pass" heat through a material, like a pot handle. As the pot heats up, energy (heat) is passed molecule to molecule through the metal until reaching the handle, just how much heat reaches the handle and just how fast is conduction. Aluminum is a fantastic heat conductor, but has a low to moderate heat capacity, thus it moves heat and can radiate it well but doesn't "soak up" a ton itself. (Think grabbing an aluminum pot handle, ouch!) Steel is slower to conduct (like a steel pot handle, which will get warm but you can usually grab), but has a greater capacity (or "resevoir" ability with heat). Polymer, well we'll just leave that one alone, it just leaves the heat where it originated and does little else.

There's a reason why they make machine guns (high rate of fire ;) ) out of steel... (*aluminum and alloys used when weight is wished to be minimized) So while you seem intent on finding one way or another to bash the M96 you chose a particularily odd line of reasoning on this one... :confused:
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Ardent said:
From another thread I posted in but useful here still, and as to the AK remark, the AK is made of steel. Stainless or not matters little.
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Good point. As for the A.K. I would imagine the ruskies were more concerned with making a large amount of rifles as cheap as possible. The soviet bloc didn't seem too intersted in build quality, refinement, and precision.
 
Ardent said:
From another thread I posted in but useful here still, and as to the AK remark, the AK is made of steel. Stainless or not matters little.
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You must not have had much experince with stainless barrels for you to make this statement. Oh I forgot you own a gun with stainless barrel:rolleyes:
 
wobbles99 said:
Good point. As for the A.K. I would imagine the ruskies were more concerned with making a large amount of rifles as cheap as possible. The soviet bloc didn't seem too intersted in build quality, refinement, and precision.
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The russian AK has a barrel made from two pieces of forged steel, that is how you can fire it untill the barrel is glowing dump it in watter pull it out and keep on firing. Imagine doing that with a stainless barrel and see what happens.
 
Brian46 said:
The russian AK has a barrel made from two pieces of forged steel, that is how you can fire it untill the barrel is glowing dump it in watter pull it out and keep on firing. Imagine doing that with a stainless barrel and see what happens.
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Yeah that would be pretty practical AND smart. I normally carry a bucket of water to a fire fight. Also repeated water quenching will stress fracture carbon steel. Ask a welder. If you want I can recomend a few B pressure welders.
 
Also in the other thread:

Stainless is steel; the properties are not changed so much as to create the differences you infer by the 12% chromium in martensitic stainless steels. In general they behave quite similarily to carbon steels, especially when we are simply relating to their use in firearms. And I'd shootout a FA steel framed gun over a FA polymer framed gun anyday...
 
wobbles99 said:
Yeah that would be pretty practical AND smart. I normally carry a bucket of water to a fire fight. Also repeated water quenching will stress fracture carbon steel. Ask a welder. If you want I can recomend a few B pressure welders.
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When it's a matter of life or death that that rifle keeps firing, I think you would try anything to keep the bullets firing.
 
Brian46 said:
When it's a matter of life or death that that rifle keeps firing, I think you would try anything to keep the bullets firing.
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And most people have access to enough mags and ammunition to get the barrel glowing mulitiple times. At the point of the gun glowing you'd think the biggest danger to your life would be cooking off a round. That is of course if you could hold the rifle at that point.
 
wobbles99 said:
And most people have access to enough mags and ammunition to get the barrel glowing mulitiple times. At the point of the gun glowing you'd think the biggest danger to your life would be cooking off a round. That is of course if you could hold the rifle at that point.
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In war, I would hope they would have enough mags and ammo to last a while.
 
wobbles99 said:
And they tend not to fire off the whole lot at one time.
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This is true, but if they keep coming you keep shooting or we all know what happens. There have been fire fights that have lasted days and thousands of rounds through each rifle with no chance to clean it.If it stops working you die, thats what it boils down too.
 
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