M&P 9mm - Solution is being offered by S&W
- Thread starter greentips
- Start date
You'd figure S&W would make it right . . . See what this guy has to say.
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Member
Posted 23 October 2008 10:29 PM
How many off you have had an M&P compact, or regular size M&P, fail to feed on the 9th round. I have an M&P40c with over 3000 rounds through it. Three time it has failed to feed with the slide open on the 9th round. I assumed I had caused the slide to lock when firing. It was always on the 9th round of the 10 round magazines. Today I may have found the problem. While unloading a magazines with my thumb, the brass cases started to jam against the top front of the magazines. It started on the 7th round and continued through the 9th round. All other rounds pushed out with no contact with the magazines front. This had happened before, but I didn’t connect it to a jam until today. I believe the 9th round is pushing forward bumping the top front of the magazine and jamming. Now I need it to fail again so I can verify this. I have four magazines and I relieved one by filing an angle like a knife blade on the magazine at that spot, Then I polished it with a felt buffer and red compound. Now when I push rounds out of that altered magazine with my finger, they bump, but they don't stop.
I have seen a couple of posting about this on this sight. Has anyone else had this happen and what conclusions have you come up with.
Phil
Posts: 54 | Location: vicksburg ms | Registered: 18 June 2008
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Member
Posted 23 October 2008 10:29 PM
How many off you have had an M&P compact, or regular size M&P, fail to feed on the 9th round. I have an M&P40c with over 3000 rounds through it. Three time it has failed to feed with the slide open on the 9th round. I assumed I had caused the slide to lock when firing. It was always on the 9th round of the 10 round magazines. Today I may have found the problem. While unloading a magazines with my thumb, the brass cases started to jam against the top front of the magazines. It started on the 7th round and continued through the 9th round. All other rounds pushed out with no contact with the magazines front. This had happened before, but I didn’t connect it to a jam until today. I believe the 9th round is pushing forward bumping the top front of the magazine and jamming. Now I need it to fail again so I can verify this. I have four magazines and I relieved one by filing an angle like a knife blade on the magazine at that spot, Then I polished it with a felt buffer and red compound. Now when I push rounds out of that altered magazine with my finger, they bump, but they don't stop.
I have seen a couple of posting about this on this sight. Has anyone else had this happen and what conclusions have you come up with.
Phil
Posts: 54 | Location: vicksburg ms | Registered: 18 June 2008
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Clobbersauras
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Waaay out west.
I won't doubt the professionalism of MD Charlton, but lemons like this is a nightmare to make a diagnosis. Last time I did this run-around was 9 or 10 years ago with Bushmaster.
Trust me - we had swapped everything to do the diagnosis - that is done by a guy with an engineering degree and a programming dude. Lots of LOGIC were applied to the diagnosis.Perhaps we can write a M&P diagnostic manual for S&W.
I have a quick chat with Wortner. They cannot really say anything other than "we will take a look at it". which I completely understood and won't expect more than that. But I am going to spend yet another 25 dollars for another "assessment'? Convince me a fourth try will make a difference if 3 tries had already failed!
They have used enough of my time and money to "fix" a problem they generated with their piss poor QC. I may as well strip the darn thing of every single components and have the receiver destroyed, and make a scene out of it !this thing had cost me over over 800 bucks already + gas and testing ammo.
And I am sure MD Charlton had pumped out enough billing to S&W. On top of my expense, they could have given me a new pistol.
Send them a link to YOUR web sight. Tell them who you are. I would hazzard a guess that hundreds of M&P's were sold as a direct result of information obtained from CGN. If they don't rush a new pistol out to you right away their customer service is beyond repair. Greentips, there has to be some perks to running this forum. I'm guessing from your posts that you are a pretty low profile guy, but sometimes it doesn't hurt to drop the hammer a bit and use what power you have to your benefit.
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Greentips I posted what you had to say about S&W on the M&P Forum. It will be interesting to hear what the folks on that forum have to say. I know S&W monitor the forum so like I said it will be interesting.
Take Care
Bob
Take Care
Bob
Ouch!
In the US they would send you a prepaid shipping label so you were out of pocket absolutely nothing. If they couldn't fix it after a few tries you could have them buy it back for what you paid. I know S&W has done this for several Walther products which they import and warranty in the US.
We pay more and we get less...
In the US they would send you a prepaid shipping label so you were out of pocket absolutely nothing. If they couldn't fix it after a few tries you could have them buy it back for what you paid. I know S&W has done this for several Walther products which they import and warranty in the US.
We pay more and we get less...
Sorry to here about your luck, it must be very frustrating to be getting the run around. From reading here and on the MP-Pistol forum I think your experience is the exception not the rule. My Rev. N M&P9 has been 100% flawless after 2 years plus of shooting. I think the run around comes from the country we live in not the company. but that my opinion.
Having said all that, and I know that this is your site to do with as you please, but I think the main homepage post you made about this is quite tasteless. If you have a problem with the pistol keep it here in the pistol section. Don't use the main home page as you personal soapbox for firearm warranty problems. Use the homepage to inform firearms owners of the current status of Legal issues or CGN merchandise or what ever, not what you do with your personal guns. Thousands of M&P's are problem free and your post does a disservice to new shooters or people considering the M&P as they may take what you say as gospel because its on the homepage. Every manufacture makes a lemon now and then, I bet Glock does to.
Now I'm sure I'll receive a lot of flack for this post, and I'll take it. Many will say this is your site to do with as you please and if I don't like don't come here. And I quite agree with them. But I must say your post on the homepage leaves a bad taste in my mouth as a problem free M&P owner.
Having said all that, and I know that this is your site to do with as you please, but I think the main homepage post you made about this is quite tasteless. If you have a problem with the pistol keep it here in the pistol section. Don't use the main home page as you personal soapbox for firearm warranty problems. Use the homepage to inform firearms owners of the current status of Legal issues or CGN merchandise or what ever, not what you do with your personal guns. Thousands of M&P's are problem free and your post does a disservice to new shooters or people considering the M&P as they may take what you say as gospel because its on the homepage. Every manufacture makes a lemon now and then, I bet Glock does to.
Now I'm sure I'll receive a lot of flack for this post, and I'll take it. Many will say this is your site to do with as you please and if I don't like don't come here. And I quite agree with them. But I must say your post on the homepage leaves a bad taste in my mouth as a problem free M&P owner.
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I agree 100%. I just saw the other post on the main page and it actually pissed me off a little. Mainly because you already made one post and stickied it (when it isn't really worthy of a sticky in the first place) and then you made another post and stickied it and locked it as well. Seems like a little too much to me.
Whether you agree or not, the M&P is a great gun for its price. I carry a PX4 on a daily basis and have shot 100's of rounds with a G17 and I still prefer the M&P over both of them. Like I said, I have NEVER had an issue with mine and as also stated above, your the exception and not the rule.
Your post reminds me of that reporter who writes a story about one gun owner that does something stupid and they proceed to group all of us into once irresponsible group based on the actions of one.......How often do we complain about those stories? Yet your doing the exact same thing yourself by telling people to not buy M&P's because of one bad experience.
MD Charlton: I had a model 29 that the nose bushing was getting worn out. I took it to a local smith and he gave it the once over and basically said to send it to Charlton and they will replace it with an oversize one, other than that the revolver is in good working order. I send it to them and lo and behold it is a POS and not worth working on. I finally convinced them to replace the nose bushing with an oversize one (which at first they said there is no such thing). Well 2 months later I get the revolver back and holy cow is this my pistol? I actually had to look at my registration to make sure that this one that they returned was the same one that I sent. I am not sure what monkey they had working on it but the bushing wasn't machined down, the face plate had huge file marks in it with not even a touch up bluing effort. When I tried the single and double action it was horrible. I took the side plate off and cleaned out all the fillings from inside, oiled it and put it back together and one problem solved. I then polished the huge scratches out of the plate and trued up the nose bushing and blued it. The revolver is still working great and by GOD I will never send anything back to them again. I have used Wortners in Ontario twice now and both times have been what one would expect from a smith. My two cents.
- Location
- Keswick, Ontario
50% of a purchase is downstream customer service in my opinion.
I stayed away from Springfields for this reason as well. XD's sometimes need to be shipped south of the border for repair. Too much hassle.
I stayed away from Springfields for this reason as well. XD's sometimes need to be shipped south of the border for repair. Too much hassle.
Wotners in Ont had fixed some of My S&W that need to be fix from warranty. I send them a Mdl 25-7 that had a broken hand. I asked them to change the trigger at the same time, cos I want a smooth face trigger. The work was well done, the trigger change and no fee, except my shipping cost. The gun came back clean and ready to used.
Never shot a M&P in semi yet. But know other shooter who got one, and no one complain about the quality.
Can Md Charlton send the pistol back to US for a fix?
Yves
Never shot a M&P in semi yet. But know other shooter who got one, and no one complain about the quality.
Can Md Charlton send the pistol back to US for a fix?
Yves
1000 rounds through mine, flawless... and the last 500 rounds have been with lead reloads.
I don't miss the CZ 75b I sold to get my M&P. I am very happy with it.
Mike
To respond to GIGGIDY:
First of all, I asked S&W rep 3 times on the phone clearly to confirm that this is their policy. I also indicated that if this is the official position of S&W that I can disclose on the internet. ( I did not say I run CGN though) The S&W rep did not say no. There is customer Service QC recording to back me up on that.
I am not a saint – and is my sticky tasteless? Probably! Am I trying to run the crusade to save the world – NO! In all honestly, all the CGN dealers carry M&P, and they probably want a piece of me now, but the morbidity of the warranty system needs to be talked about.
But you know what it is even more tasteless about this whole deal? Read this!
3 -Invoices submitted to S&W from the depot for repairing:
For each invoice of repair:
1 hour of gunsmithing = 45 dollars and up (if they only charge one hour….)
150 rounds of factory ammo for testing = 60 dollars
Shipping = 25 dollars
Each repair costs 130 dollars
There were 3 repairs already = 390 dollars of billing
Repair center claimed to have replace extractor and barrel = at least 150 dollars
Total billing to S&W = 550 dollars!!!!
Shipping expended on my part by DHL = 37 per repair
3 repairs = 111 dollars
Testing ammo, gas, packaging and time spent on getting ATT – you can imagine.
The total tangible readily measurable cost expended on this pistol: 661 dollars
Hidden costs – gas, packaging, my time, S&W rep’s time, invoice process time……..
You see – the depot is making some good billings here. S&W spent over 550 dollars on this pistol but it doesn’t have to deal with any admin burden. And the consumer lost 100 dollars on shipping, time and enjoyment of his investment.
Basically, it is the same old American automobile industry way of thinking. The cost of recall vs the cost of lawsuit – and the cost of information containment. Even though they have spent over 550 dollars, spread it over 100 pistols (1% failure rate), it is still cheap as a way of self insurance. From corporate perspective, this sounds like a good deal. From the consumer perspective, we are being sold short. You will always have 99 happy customers, but the 1 in 100 is getting severely screwed in this system.
If you look at how this works – the chance that 1 in 100 customers will complain is probably 50/50. The chance that the one who complains and had his product fixed in the first try is probably another 75%. The 25% of so customer, like myself, is probably insignificant. For a company that makes 50,000 pistols a year, that’s like 125 severe complains in a year – which accounted for 10 severe complaints a month.
You see, spending 600 bucks on a pistol is still an ok deal from S&W perspective, that’s about 100,000 a year. Think of the cost of adding people on QC and slowing down the production rate. You use sales volume to cover up the cost of fixing defects. And part of the strategy of high sales volume is low price.
Now, here is the kicker. I have no doubt in my mind they cost this out already. However, instead of giving ME, the consumer, a new pistol that costs them maybe around 100 dollars to make, they choose to let the depot bill them over 550 dollars. Of course, this makes the warranty depot happy because it generates billing opportunity there at the expense of the consumer and S&W . The only loser is the consumer. If S&W act quickly and replace the entire pistol after the first repair attempt, it would have costs them 300 dollars instead of 550! Instead, the “repair” budget is channeled to the report depot versus satisfying the customers. If you look at the objective of S&W and the bias of the repair center, you can get a picture why this is going nowhere. I am not saying the repair center is unethical or intentionally not fixing it – but the repair center could take an incremental approach – fixing one or trying one small thing at a time to create potential follow ups , instead of a major overhaul that costs more in the first try and guarantee a permanent fix.
In conclusion, if you are one of the 99 happy customers, more power to you. On the other hand, if you are the 1 in 100, you are part of the “cost” in accordance to their business plan. And they have budgeted to take care of you. Right now, the system is not working because the budget was channeled to the repair depot instead of taking care of me, the consumer. The repair center had skimmed off MY budget, in fact, actually using my shipping money to create billing opportunities, and S&W doesn’t care because they’ve spent the money already, irregardless what it does. The system is win-win for repair center, neutral for S&W and a net-loss to consumers.
First of all, I asked S&W rep 3 times on the phone clearly to confirm that this is their policy. I also indicated that if this is the official position of S&W that I can disclose on the internet. ( I did not say I run CGN though) The S&W rep did not say no. There is customer Service QC recording to back me up on that.
I am not a saint – and is my sticky tasteless? Probably! Am I trying to run the crusade to save the world – NO! In all honestly, all the CGN dealers carry M&P, and they probably want a piece of me now, but the morbidity of the warranty system needs to be talked about.
But you know what it is even more tasteless about this whole deal? Read this!
3 -Invoices submitted to S&W from the depot for repairing:
For each invoice of repair:
1 hour of gunsmithing = 45 dollars and up (if they only charge one hour….)
150 rounds of factory ammo for testing = 60 dollars
Shipping = 25 dollars
Each repair costs 130 dollars
There were 3 repairs already = 390 dollars of billing
Repair center claimed to have replace extractor and barrel = at least 150 dollars
Total billing to S&W = 550 dollars!!!!
Shipping expended on my part by DHL = 37 per repair
3 repairs = 111 dollars
Testing ammo, gas, packaging and time spent on getting ATT – you can imagine.
The total tangible readily measurable cost expended on this pistol: 661 dollars
Hidden costs – gas, packaging, my time, S&W rep’s time, invoice process time……..
You see – the depot is making some good billings here. S&W spent over 550 dollars on this pistol but it doesn’t have to deal with any admin burden. And the consumer lost 100 dollars on shipping, time and enjoyment of his investment.
Basically, it is the same old American automobile industry way of thinking. The cost of recall vs the cost of lawsuit – and the cost of information containment. Even though they have spent over 550 dollars, spread it over 100 pistols (1% failure rate), it is still cheap as a way of self insurance. From corporate perspective, this sounds like a good deal. From the consumer perspective, we are being sold short. You will always have 99 happy customers, but the 1 in 100 is getting severely screwed in this system.
If you look at how this works – the chance that 1 in 100 customers will complain is probably 50/50. The chance that the one who complains and had his product fixed in the first try is probably another 75%. The 25% of so customer, like myself, is probably insignificant. For a company that makes 50,000 pistols a year, that’s like 125 severe complains in a year – which accounted for 10 severe complaints a month.
You see, spending 600 bucks on a pistol is still an ok deal from S&W perspective, that’s about 100,000 a year. Think of the cost of adding people on QC and slowing down the production rate. You use sales volume to cover up the cost of fixing defects. And part of the strategy of high sales volume is low price.
Now, here is the kicker. I have no doubt in my mind they cost this out already. However, instead of giving ME, the consumer, a new pistol that costs them maybe around 100 dollars to make, they choose to let the depot bill them over 550 dollars. Of course, this makes the warranty depot happy because it generates billing opportunity there at the expense of the consumer and S&W . The only loser is the consumer. If S&W act quickly and replace the entire pistol after the first repair attempt, it would have costs them 300 dollars instead of 550! Instead, the “repair” budget is channeled to the report depot versus satisfying the customers. If you look at the objective of S&W and the bias of the repair center, you can get a picture why this is going nowhere. I am not saying the repair center is unethical or intentionally not fixing it – but the repair center could take an incremental approach – fixing one or trying one small thing at a time to create potential follow ups , instead of a major overhaul that costs more in the first try and guarantee a permanent fix.
In conclusion, if you are one of the 99 happy customers, more power to you. On the other hand, if you are the 1 in 100, you are part of the “cost” in accordance to their business plan. And they have budgeted to take care of you. Right now, the system is not working because the budget was channeled to the repair depot instead of taking care of me, the consumer. The repair center had skimmed off MY budget, in fact, actually using my shipping money to create billing opportunities, and S&W doesn’t care because they’ve spent the money already, irregardless what it does. The system is win-win for repair center, neutral for S&W and a net-loss to consumers.
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I think your best course of action would be to take the hit one more time & try the depot in Ontario. Let S&W and both repair depots know who you are and of the three ring circus your going to make out of this whole experience if the problem isn't corrected this time to your satisfaction! (ie. maybe trade it in for a camera?)
I totally agree with the fact that you are getting the short end of the stick on this one Greentips, I would be pissed to. I think you have every right to to upset at the situation.
But, as the owner of the biggest and best Canadian gun forum, I would think you could have taken a different approach other than smearing the situation all over the homepage of CGN and then again in the Pistol and Revolver section. That is my only complaint. And it it a small one, and by no means am I trying to start a war. I just think this thread in the Pistol and Revolver section is enough.
Cheers,
Giggidy
But, as the owner of the biggest and best Canadian gun forum, I would think you could have taken a different approach other than smearing the situation all over the homepage of CGN and then again in the Pistol and Revolver section. That is my only complaint. And it it a small one, and by no means am I trying to start a war. I just think this thread in the Pistol and Revolver section is enough.
Cheers,
Giggidy
