M4 - how is it different than other ARs?
- Thread starter UncleWalther
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Excellent point.........
You just reminded me that JTF-II did an in-house study several years ago on adopting another standard "assaulter" weapon to replace the C8. When all was said and done, they couldn't find anything that is as versatile.
I think you are asking about the Colt LE6920.
I see a lot of D**K waving going on in this thread but nobody actually answered your question.
I think you must consider several factors:
1) bolt
2) Barrel
3) Trigger group
The bolt on the LE6920 is fully shrouded unlike many non-LE models.
The barrel is a "machine gun barrel" (heavy duty) designed to take "the heat" of full auto fire. Considering that we can't have f/a here, that means that it should hold up better in the long run.
The trigger group is of the Full Auto design but it has no select fire which means that the selector switch is fire/safe and the sear is not the same.
This is from the Colt website:
- Accommodates the full range of 5.56mm ammunition, including the NATO M855/SS109 and U.S. M193, utilizing a rifling twist of 1 turn in 7" (178mm)
- Straight-line construction disperses recoil straight back to the shoulder, increasing handling capabilities, especially during repeated fire
- 4-position sliding buttstock allows the weapon to adapt to users of different sizes and physical characteristics as well as various firing positions and clothing variations
- Cartridge case deflector allows easy operation in both right and left handed shooting positions for increased tactical applications
- Muzzle compensator further reduces muzzle climb and helps eliminate flash and dust signatures
- Ejection port cover protects the chamber from dust and mud
- Field strips easily without special tools for simple field user maintenance
- Flat top receiver allows for removable carrying handle and easy mounting of accessories
- M203 40mm Grenade Launcher mounts directly to the Carbine without modification
- Two 20 round magazines, cleaning kit and sling are standard. 30-round magazines are optional
- Target style rear sight features dual apertures (0-200m, 300-600m) and adjusts for both windage and elevation
- High strength materials add durability to the forearm, buttstock and pistol grip for greater comfort and effectiveness
CALIBER 5.56mm (.223 Rem)
METHOD OF OPERATION Gas; Direct system; Locking bolt
MAGAZINE CAPACITY 2 - 20 round (30 rd mag optional)
FIRE CONTROL SELECTION Safe - Semi
EFFECTIVE RANGE 600 m
FRONT SIGHT Adjustable front
REAR SIGHT Target sight adjustable for windage and elevation
FLASH HIDER Bird cage style
UPPER Flat top receiver with detachable carrying handle
HANDGUARDS Oversized double heat shield
Why not compare this with the other manufacturers and see what they give you?
If there was not difference, why is it that approx. 85% of law enforcement agencies around North America are using the Colt LE 6920 and not Bushmaster LE versions (although some do) or others. I am obviously not LE, but someone out there must know the real reason.
Incidentally, Colt actually designs the component runs for the actual firearm they make. I asked this question 5 years ago at SHOT too and was told straight out that these are not some inferior piece that did not cut it as Mil-Spec M4.
These are the specs on the Colt M4 Military Models:
CALIBER 5.56X45mm NATO (.223 Rem) WEIGHT WITHOUT MAG 5.9 lb (2.68 kg) EMPTY 30 ROUND MAG 0.25 lb (0.11 kg) LOADED 30 ROUND MAG 1.0 lb (0.45 kg) OVERALL LENGTH
Stock Retracted33 in (84 cm)
29.8 in (76 cm)BARREL LENGTH 14.5 in (37 cm) BORE CHARACTERISTICS Hard Chrome Lined, 6 Lands & Groves, 1 Twist in 7 in (178 mm), Right Hand METHOD OF OPERATION Gas; Direct System; Locking bolt MUZZLE VELOCITY 2900 ft/sec (884 m/sec) MUZZLE ENERGY 1645 Joule EFFECTIVE RANGE 600 m FRONT SIGHT Adjustable front REAR SIGHT M16A4 target style sight adjustable for windage and elevation to 600m SIGHT RADIUS 14.5 in (37 cm) CYCLIC RATE OF FIRE 700-950 rpm FIRE CONTROL SELECTION Safe - Semi - Full Auto UPPER RECEIVER Flat Top With Detachable Carrying Handle
Anyways that is my 2 cents. I have sold ALL the makes available to Canada and have owned Bushmaster, Stag, ZM, Armalite and Colt. I personally believe that the Colt LE6920 is the best of the best.
Flame me if you want. I am a civilian and could care less about it's ability to operate in Iraq. I shoot in Ontario with my AR and hopefully in the states (3-gun) this summer.
I hope all our Canadian forces personel are given the best money can buy because god knows I am personally supplying the equivalent of 50 -60 C7/8's per year (in dollars).
Found this chart on a USA website too:
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dangertree
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^this chart is not accurate for Stag Arms sold in Canada, and likely not accurate for other models listed either. It is gleaned from thoughts and suppositions, not facts.
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The US military bought over one hundred thousand of them in the early sixties. I don't think they kept the receipt, either.Really? So kindly explain to the CGN community why the rotating bolt, direct-gas impingment system that Eugene Stoner designed in the 50's has lasted as long as it has with very little re-engineering?
dangertree
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Sure! To correct the "chart" for Stag Arms as offered in Canada,
-Bolt is shot peened (as RobP would known had he called and asked)
-black extractor insert (since we got a bag of them, they come with blue, both cost less than $1)
-double staked gas key, top AND side, the best staked key in the country!
-1/7 or 1/9 available,
-4140 or 4150 barrels available by request (+$70), HPT/MPI +$10
-FSB is F-marked and in spec (RobP BS)
-m4 or rifle ramps as requested (not that this make 1 iota of difference in semi, but)
-Carbine, H or H2 buffers.
So, to meet every tick on RobPs chart, add $80 to the base price. For better or for worse, the 16" 1/7 MP barrel Stag offers is the same barrel their friends in West Hartford order, also from ER Shaw. Stag does a nicer job of finishing their guns, removing flash marks, etc. Anodizing, Barrel Choming, and Phosphating, use the same subcontractors.
I'm not sure what you mean by the fire control group being like the M16 in the 6920, if so, so are Stag, The Colt LE guns we have sold have the exact same internals as the Stags we sell, regular AR15 parts, not the M16 hammer. Generally 'C' and or 'S' stamped (or both).
Finally, cost. We sell 6920 to bonafide end users for EDIT , the exact same config 1R is EDIT. For Colt guys, the name might be worth the $edit-por extra, for me, not so much.
I can hook you up with one if you'd like a look.
Cheers,
DT
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dangertree
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My LE 6920 - worth every dollar spent
How much again for the base rifle?
dangertree
Business Rep
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- NL/ON/FL/PL
EDIT
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Well, firstly, you do not advertise Colt. I checked your website and all I see is STAG, so naturally I bought a Stag lower from you (last spring/summer) and I love it with my ZM upper.
You know who I am and you also know what I have since I have listed 6 new in the box, unfired COLT LE6920's for sale on the EE. I used to be a dealer for Bushmaster and Colt and have some pretty firm knowledge on both. That being said, I was only a dealer from 1996/97 - 2003 so maybe I am out of touch.
I asked if you stock because you say you sell at $1800. I have never seen your EE's or website home page postings for these so I was only asking because I was surprised. How often do these come into Canada today? I don't know so I ask.
close, they went with 5.45 x 39 while AR is 5.56 x 45
They wanted to create the same type of damage as 5.56 but they seem to have fragmentation problem with it
They put an air bubble at the tip and hope the bullets will flip, but the jello test doesn't seem to support that.
Plus, the 5.45X39 has a lower velocity - so i guess the SS109, as an "enhanced penetrating round" will have longer range in ripping the typical soft armour. That is probably a more important feature for a LMG in a cold war scenario, when the SS109 was developed in the late 70's/early 80's ( or maybe important again if the next war is with Iran or China)
Is there a test out there that compared the maximum range a C77 ball can penetrate a typical modern Level 3A equivalent soft armour, with say, the russian 5.45 and the old 55gr M193?
Plus, the 5.45X39 has a lower velocity - so i guess the SS109, as an "enhanced penetrating round" will have longer range in ripping the typical soft armour. That is probably a more important feature for a LMG in a cold war scenario, when the SS109 was developed in the late 70's/early 80's ( or maybe important again if the next war is with Iran or China)
Is there a test out there that compared the maximum range a C77 ball can penetrate a typical modern Level 3A equivalent soft armour, with say, the russian 5.45 and the old 55gr M193?
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dangertree
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OK, I'm thinking I know who you are now. I didn't put the CGN name together.
And, If I'm right, I understand how you have the 6920s, and if I'm right, I'm glad to see them on the market and wish you the best of luck with everything. With the Colts, these days, we can only bring them in for bonafide LE orders after approval by the US DOS. Demand is very slight, a fair bit of mucking about, getting letters signed by superiors, etc, enough that we don't really advertise it, we have a couple of times here though. How often do they come in, anytime I guess, but in reality, very very rarely, and those who buy them can't resell them. We concentrate on the Stags, they're nice guns too, and Stag makes them for us in configurations so we can import them for commercial resale rather than just named end users.
As of 05, US isn't allowing commercial export licenses for basically any US spec AR15, including Colt LE, but Colt officially doesn't sell LE line to civilians, and the factory config isn't exportable, so basically, no new LE carbines. The guys that buy them from us for $EDIT can't resell them legally, I can't even buy one, so if I want one, I think I'll take another look at your ad! Rareness has a cost. Our handful of 'LE named end user' Colts don't make your Colts any less rare or less valuable. They're rare and thus collectible to many.
Cheers,
DT
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dangertree
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One more thing... If anyone is looking to add a Colt to their collection, the 6920s WHYLOOK is selling are probably the last in stock guns in the country, and IMO price is very fair all things considered. Colts makes a great AR-15.
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