There are many used lathes out there and some are very good buys. The condition of the ways is a good indication of how much use and care a machine has had. I have seen lathes manufactured in the 50's and 60's that still had scraper marks on the ways even in front of the chuck which is where most wear occurs. For the uninitiated though machines from the 70's thru the 90's can still be had in decent shape. And these machines will have ball bearing headstocks, induction hardened beds and higher RPM ranges. As well these machines will have quick change gear boxes and a translating gear which enables you to cut metric threads. Personally I would lean towards American, English, Japanese, German or Swiss machinery as most of it was manufactured for industrial use and is very high quality. A square indexable tool post is desirable as opposed to the old rocker type tool post which is designed for HSS tools and not carbide. A larger through hole in the headstock is usually indicative of heavier headstock bearings which allow heavier cuts and less vibration. Most neophytes like a 3 jaw chuck which is simple to use and fine for some work but a good 4 jaw, once you get the hang of truing up work is much better. A decent steady rest with ball bearing rollers and a good follower rest as well as a taper attachment are necessary too.
Machinist input on Gunsmith Lathe
- Thread starter Brambles
- Start date
There are many used lathes out there and some are very good buys. The condition of the ways is a good indication of how much use and care a machine has had. I have seen lathes manufactured in the 50's and 60's that still had scraper marks on the ways even in front of the chuck which is where most wear occurs. For the uninitiated though machines from the 70's thru the 90's can still be had in decent shape. And these machines will have ball bearing headstocks, induction hardened beds and higher RPM ranges. As well these machines will have quick change gear boxes and a translating gear which enables you to cut metric threads. Personally I would lean towards American, English, Japanese, German or Swiss machinery as most of it was manufactured for industrial use and is very high quality. A square indexable tool post is desirable as opposed to the old rocker type tool post which is designed for HSS tools and not carbide. A larger through hole in the headstock is usually indicative of heavier headstock bearings which allow heavier cuts and less vibration. Most neophytes like a 3 jaw chuck which is simple to use and fine for some work but a good 4 jaw, once you get the hang of truing up work is much better. A decent steady rest with ball bearing rollers and a good follower rest as well as a taper attachment are necessary too.
Thanks Trev, I have been longing to get into home metal/lathe work for some time. I have ordered a couple of your recommended books and will probably look to purchase this spring.
This is purely for hobby use and am looking at a Grizzly 10x22 benchtop model as well as a mini milling machine.
This is purely for hobby use and am looking at a Grizzly 10x22 benchtop model as well as a mini milling machine.
What about something like this, looks older than hell though
http://bc.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-equipment-COLCHESTER-13-X-40-METAL-LATHE-W0QQAdIdZ342210490
http://bc.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-sell-tools-equipment-COLCHESTER-13-X-40-METAL-LATHE-W0QQAdIdZ342210490
First, that Colchester round head lathe in the pic it is worth no more than $2500, and parts for these lathes are very expensive. I own one, and before I made a half nut for it, I tried to order the part....$1200 for the half nut.
Go to BB and get yourself a small lathe.
Go to BB and get yourself a small lathe.
^ Colchester's are great lathes, you can't really compare them to the Taiwan and Chinese stuff... If it has been cared for and not abused it should last several lifetimes... I would say for the price it would definitely be worth a look.... I believe Colchester still may be around, check and see what a comparable one is worth, it will be a jaw dropper for ya......
My observation on the imports is look them over close they are not created equal. The Busy Bee dont look bad, the Force machines that The House of Tools sold where pretty rough. The machines sold under the Advance label used to be good . Have fun, it grows on you then you will need a mill.
Brambles, you're right to be wary of used machines if you're not sure what to look at. Mostly you want to look for the ways around the chuck for signs of wear and grit scratches that are not on the tail stock end. If the finish differences in terms of wear, crispness of the bed rail corners and the like is noticably "duller" than the tail stock end then it's a good sign that the bed could well be worn to a "swayback" condition. Now that sort of thing is correctable but it means tearing the machine down fully and having the bedways re-ground by a shop that has the tooling and knowledge to do so accurately. I've never had such a thing done but I can see where it would easily cost a good $500 or more of shop time. So if you do go used factor this into the cost. Other things to check is for wear or play in the carraige ways and on the quill of the tail stock. The headstock bearings should be reasonably quiet when running. And other than that look for general damage that implies abuse from the operators over time. Don't worry at all about the condition of paint. That's normal wear and tear on any shop tool.
So in many ways as a newby you may find that you're better off with a new machine.
Something to note with these new ones. The import 12x36 I got came to me slathered in grit. I swear that it was assembled in the spray from the surface grinders or maybe right there in the foundry with all the casting sand flying about. I ended up completely tearing my own down, cleaning and de-burring all the rather razor like finished edges and milling out the little oil distribution tray for the quick change gearing. This tray in particular had the raw sand cast finish with sand still easily felt and dislodged in the surface finish and paint. So no way I wanted to be pouring oil in there to drip down onto the shafts and gears. The front apron box of the main carraige was found to have not a drop of oil in it. But at least there was no sand... There was also nothing to allow an oil bath to be added or changed. So as part of the work in there I made up a brass tube oil drip gallery with holes at the right spots to allow me to stick the oil can tip into a flared mouth and put two or three squirts of way oil into the gallery which would then drip down onto the threading and feed gearing and shafts. So that's something to check as well.
So ISO or not I'd suggest that you plan on a rather long and involved get "aquainted period" stripping, cleaning and detailing the machine. The value of this will be a much longer and trouble free ownership.
Oh, there's a few other things. For example, the rubber bed wipers that came with the machine were useless. They didn't even touch the bed. So I made up some heavy felt ones with aluminium clamps to hold them. These ensure that any small chips or grit on the bed don't become embedded between the bed and carraige and wear at the bed way. For the same reason ANY time you use ANY abrasive in the machine you want to stop the lathe and lay a heavy towel or other solution on the exposed bed way to prevent the abrasive particles that come off the sandpaper or emery cloth from falling on the bed. One of the heavy and limp fender mats used by car mechanics would be excellent for such a thing. They wouldn't tend to lift up and catch on the chuck easily and they are oil proof and easily cleaned.
Hopefully this link will work for you. It's the direct link to my metal working pictures album on Photobucket. Some of my self made lathe tooling work may inspire you and help out.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/BCRider/Metalworking/
So in many ways as a newby you may find that you're better off with a new machine.
Something to note with these new ones. The import 12x36 I got came to me slathered in grit. I swear that it was assembled in the spray from the surface grinders or maybe right there in the foundry with all the casting sand flying about. I ended up completely tearing my own down, cleaning and de-burring all the rather razor like finished edges and milling out the little oil distribution tray for the quick change gearing. This tray in particular had the raw sand cast finish with sand still easily felt and dislodged in the surface finish and paint. So no way I wanted to be pouring oil in there to drip down onto the shafts and gears. The front apron box of the main carraige was found to have not a drop of oil in it. But at least there was no sand...
There was also nothing to allow an oil bath to be added or changed. So as part of the work in there I made up a brass tube oil drip gallery with holes at the right spots to allow me to stick the oil can tip into a flared mouth and put two or three squirts of way oil into the gallery which would then drip down onto the threading and feed gearing and shafts. So that's something to check as well.So ISO or not I'd suggest that you plan on a rather long and involved get "aquainted period" stripping, cleaning and detailing the machine. The value of this will be a much longer and trouble free ownership.
Oh, there's a few other things. For example, the rubber bed wipers that came with the machine were useless. They didn't even touch the bed. So I made up some heavy felt ones with aluminium clamps to hold them. These ensure that any small chips or grit on the bed don't become embedded between the bed and carraige and wear at the bed way. For the same reason ANY time you use ANY abrasive in the machine you want to stop the lathe and lay a heavy towel or other solution on the exposed bed way to prevent the abrasive particles that come off the sandpaper or emery cloth from falling on the bed. One of the heavy and limp fender mats used by car mechanics would be excellent for such a thing. They wouldn't tend to lift up and catch on the chuck easily and they are oil proof and easily cleaned.
Hopefully this link will work for you. It's the direct link to my metal working pictures album on Photobucket. Some of my self made lathe tooling work may inspire you and help out.
http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y252/BCRider/Metalworking/
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
I agree with BCRider. Whether you buy one used or new strip it down and get to know it. My South Bend I bought had excellent almost new ways for 1978 machine. Paint was worn here and there and that's just normal use. I stripped the carriage down completely and found chips, water, caked grease and whatnot. Buy a new South Bend today made like mine and you'll easily see a $26,000 price tag. I paid $3100 for my 13x40 and it only came with a nice Set-True Yuasa chuck, but I bought a taper attachment and spent thousands in tooling over the years.
If you're thinking of buying used take somebody who knows lathes. A smart investment. Get all the tooling you can get. It adds up fast.
If you're thinking of buying used take somebody who knows lathes. A smart investment. Get all the tooling you can get. It adds up fast.
That there is a prime example of the 30's and 40's era technology that caused South Bend to end up bankrupt and gone.
Good machines, just not as good as the price they charged, compared to what else was available and became available. Same story as Myford, who finally priced themselves far out of their target market and went the way of the dodo.
FWIW, if you look at the "South Bend" lathes available today, they are all imports sold by the fellow that owns Grizzly Tools. He bought the brand and the rights to use the name, and hid ad writers have been flogging the 'history' as if they were there for it all. Whatta pile of hooey!
Colchester has not made a lathe in the UK for some time either. Compare the Colchester offerings, and the new SB ones, and guess if they came off the same line in China or not.
Gotta say the guy with the Colchester in Courtenay is an optimistic dreamer.
Watch the Craigslist and Kijiji ads for the Lower mainland, and you'll save enough to buy a truck to haul it with. Nice $2K lathe, if it's really well tooled. If the crap in the bed is a general indicator of how it's been cared for, it hasn't been. Tread carefully, and go by what you can see with your own eyes if you look.
There have been a fair few round head Colchester lathes on Craigslist in the last few years.
Old machine tools are like old bikes. Only as good as the care they have had, and only as good as the last rebuild. Unless you can live with the warts, or can afford to play around with a rebuild, you may be way better off getting a new machine.
Shop condition over name. A new Grizzly comes with some support, an old South Bend, not so much. Logan is still around and support their machines, almost all the rest have died off. IIRC I saw an ad a while back, trying to sell the remains of Standard Modern, the last Canadian maker, and even they were starting to bring stuff in from overseas to finish, I was reading.
Cheers
Trev
Good machines, just not as good as the price they charged, compared to what else was available and became available. Same story as Myford, who finally priced themselves far out of their target market and went the way of the dodo.
FWIW, if you look at the "South Bend" lathes available today, they are all imports sold by the fellow that owns Grizzly Tools. He bought the brand and the rights to use the name, and hid ad writers have been flogging the 'history' as if they were there for it all. Whatta pile of hooey!
Colchester has not made a lathe in the UK for some time either. Compare the Colchester offerings, and the new SB ones, and guess if they came off the same line in China or not.
Gotta say the guy with the Colchester in Courtenay is an optimistic dreamer.
Watch the Craigslist and Kijiji ads for the Lower mainland, and you'll save enough to buy a truck to haul it with. Nice $2K lathe, if it's really well tooled. If the crap in the bed is a general indicator of how it's been cared for, it hasn't been. Tread carefully, and go by what you can see with your own eyes if you look.
There have been a fair few round head Colchester lathes on Craigslist in the last few years.
Old machine tools are like old bikes. Only as good as the care they have had, and only as good as the last rebuild. Unless you can live with the warts, or can afford to play around with a rebuild, you may be way better off getting a new machine.
Shop condition over name. A new Grizzly comes with some support, an old South Bend, not so much. Logan is still around and support their machines, almost all the rest have died off. IIRC I saw an ad a while back, trying to sell the remains of Standard Modern, the last Canadian maker, and even they were starting to bring stuff in from overseas to finish, I was reading.
Cheers
Trev
I have a 13x36 Standard Modern made right in Toronto. Great little lathe for gun smithing and will accurately "out machine" any chinese lathe I've ever used!
If I had my choice though, I would have a DS&G followed by Colchester and or Hardinge. All three are big money lathes and the DS&G is almost impossible to find.
My standard modern is converted to 220v. If you get a proper tool room lathe you have to decide whether or not to convert to single phase or run a 3 phase converter(this being the best option but also way more $ !)
Maybe try a machinery auction. Machines with tooling can be had at really fair prices.
Cheers!
If I had my choice though, I would have a DS&G followed by Colchester and or Hardinge. All three are big money lathes and the DS&G is almost impossible to find.
My standard modern is converted to 220v. If you get a proper tool room lathe you have to decide whether or not to convert to single phase or run a 3 phase converter(this being the best option but also way more $ !)
Maybe try a machinery auction. Machines with tooling can be had at really fair prices.
Cheers!
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
Trev, you got it right. SB and others could or would not keep up with the times. Japan and Europe were putting out better machines, but like them, out of my price range. Since it's only a hobby for me the old iron is fine and well made.
I remember those old Colchesters back in high school. I think they all use CNC stuff these days.
South Bend made in Taiwan IIRC these days. They say QC is better there than China. How much real world difference do you think there is in a new Toolroom SB or Grizzly?
I remember those old Colchesters back in high school. I think they all use CNC stuff these days.
South Bend made in Taiwan IIRC these days. They say QC is better there than China. How much real world difference do you think there is in a new Toolroom SB or Grizzly?
Well I may as well add my .02 cents worth.
First off this new year marks my 38th year in the trade,all jobbing shop work.Very little production past a dozen or so parts. I do some pretty involved gunsmithing from time to time ,my biggest interest is Benchrest.
Having made a few actions and done a fair bit of smithing work,I have developed many opinions over the years.. Machining accuracy does not come out of or from the machinery. (allowing that it is at least not boat anchor material)The operator makes it happen. The tools assist of course.Some help, some hinder, but the operator is the going to give you the end result according to his resolve,experience,and desire. A poor tool maker\ machinist blames his tools. I know a world class Gunsmith that has what I would consider basic junk for a garage full of machine tools Chinese lathes and Mill-Drill crap,and yet he has produced many benchrest actions, triggers , scope rings ,bullet swaging dies,chamber reamers,dies,and a host of related eqipment over his lifetime. For himself and many big names in the bench game. Personnally I prefer iron made somewhere other than China though my bridgeport clone is from Taiwan. I run a Standard Modern 13x34 and a Colchester 13x36. I had a NEW chicom Mill-drill for 9 days and got so mad at it I sold it to a guy who made homemade aircraft parts (go figure?) Thing is he had no experiance so it was great for him. More valuable than any machinery,is a good mentor. Someone to show you a second opinion or differant approach, will help to shorten and smooth a long learning curve.
CHEERS
First off this new year marks my 38th year in the trade,all jobbing shop work.Very little production past a dozen or so parts. I do some pretty involved gunsmithing from time to time ,my biggest interest is Benchrest.
Having made a few actions and done a fair bit of smithing work,I have developed many opinions over the years.. Machining accuracy does not come out of or from the machinery. (allowing that it is at least not boat anchor material)The operator makes it happen. The tools assist of course.Some help, some hinder, but the operator is the going to give you the end result according to his resolve,experience,and desire. A poor tool maker\ machinist blames his tools. I know a world class Gunsmith that has what I would consider basic junk for a garage full of machine tools Chinese lathes and Mill-Drill crap,and yet he has produced many benchrest actions, triggers , scope rings ,bullet swaging dies,chamber reamers,dies,and a host of related eqipment over his lifetime. For himself and many big names in the bench game. Personnally I prefer iron made somewhere other than China though my bridgeport clone is from Taiwan. I run a Standard Modern 13x34 and a Colchester 13x36. I had a NEW chicom Mill-drill for 9 days and got so mad at it I sold it to a guy who made homemade aircraft parts (go figure?) Thing is he had no experiance so it was great for him. More valuable than any machinery,is a good mentor. Someone to show you a second opinion or differant approach, will help to shorten and smooth a long learning curve.
CHEERS
Randy B's post could be printed and framed, and hung on the bathroom wall in or nearest the shop.
Guys get too hung up on what they think they need, esp. when they don't have any real equipment in the shop yet.
The beater lathe in the shop works way, way better than the perfect lathe in the catalog page.
Get a lathe, get some HSS tool blanks, and some stock to turn, and have at. If you can scrounge up or buy some known material, even better. Some 12L14 is great for giving great results with little effort, as it cuts nearly as nicely as brass. It does not weld worth a hoot, but is great for most other things you may want steel for.
Some 316 stock will give you some time with that barrel material. 4140, aka Chrome Moly, is good too.
Cheers
Trev
Guys get too hung up on what they think they need, esp. when they don't have any real equipment in the shop yet.
The beater lathe in the shop works way, way better than the perfect lathe in the catalog page.
Get a lathe, get some HSS tool blanks, and some stock to turn, and have at. If you can scrounge up or buy some known material, even better. Some 12L14 is great for giving great results with little effort, as it cuts nearly as nicely as brass. It does not weld worth a hoot, but is great for most other things you may want steel for.
Some 316 stock will give you some time with that barrel material. 4140, aka Chrome Moly, is good too.
Cheers
Trev
Republic of Alberta
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- ,location, location
If you want to bbl a rifle the very best thing you can do is get Gordy Gritters vid.
I put on my first bbl with nothing more than home made tools, this youtube vid and a bunch of research on the net (Bench Rest Centeral is awsome)
I actualy bought this vid after doing a few bbls I found it nice to have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aII2tbavKnM
I put on my first bbl with nothing more than home made tools, this youtube vid and a bunch of research on the net (Bench Rest Centeral is awsome)
I actualy bought this vid after doing a few bbls I found it nice to have.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aII2tbavKnM
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I have this lathe:
http://www.precisionmatthews.com/PM1236Lathe.html
I also looked at the Grizzly, but this one offered more for the same price and he took care of all of the shipping hassles. I got the coolant system, quick change tool post and DRO for less than Busy Bee charges for their equivalent lathe without any of those. The PM1236 also has a brake...
http://www.precisionmatthews.com/PM1236Lathe.html
I also looked at the Grizzly, but this one offered more for the same price and he took care of all of the shipping hassles. I got the coolant system, quick change tool post and DRO for less than Busy Bee charges for their equivalent lathe without any of those. The PM1236 also has a brake...
Spot on Randy and Trev. Much of doing well in machining comes from understanding the strength and weakness of the machines and associated hand tooling. A good metal worker plans their work such that they avoid the shortcomings and play to the strengths.
An important lesson is to realize that at the sort of tolerances a machinist works to that metal is about as rigid as rubber as it reacts to pressure from various sources. To effectively machine the material to tight tolerances requires a good feel for this aspect in all phases of the work.
An important lesson is to realize that at the sort of tolerances a machinist works to that metal is about as rigid as rubber as it reacts to pressure from various sources. To effectively machine the material to tight tolerances requires a good feel for this aspect in all phases of the work.
Opinions please!
I am considering the following equipment:
I have zero knowledge of operating a metal lathe and am interested in producing small parts/projects (miniature cannons, steam engines) and working on handgun stuff more so than rifles.
I looked at Busy Bee (Craftex) which is also "made in China" (what isn't these days). The Busy Bee stuff seems to be more expensive for comparable sized equipment.
There seems to be some very knowledgeable folks in this thread, and I am looking at a minimum of $2500 investment. Don't want to throw good money away on crappy machines.
I do have a couple of books on the way. Thanks for any advice you can throw my way.
Goose
I am considering the following equipment:
- Grizzly G0602 10x22 lathe http://www.grizzly.com/products/10-x-22-Bench-Top-Metal-Lathe/G0602
- Grizzly G8689 Mini Milling Machine http://www.grizzly.com/products/Mini-Milling-Machine/G8689
I have zero knowledge of operating a metal lathe and am interested in producing small parts/projects (miniature cannons, steam engines) and working on handgun stuff more so than rifles.
I looked at Busy Bee (Craftex) which is also "made in China" (what isn't these days). The Busy Bee stuff seems to be more expensive for comparable sized equipment.
There seems to be some very knowledgeable folks in this thread, and I am looking at a minimum of $2500 investment. Don't want to throw good money away on crappy machines.
I do have a couple of books on the way. Thanks for any advice you can throw my way.
Goose
lejarretnoir
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- 162km from Connaught
Hey Goose,
Have a read here http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=521802
That $2500 won't last long once you pay shipping, taxes and get tooling. That lathe is also very fast for the slow speeds. A beginner learning how to thread on that will be real challenge. You want at least 60 rpm to start. I still thread even slower than that on my SB 13x40.
Have a read here http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=521802
That $2500 won't last long once you pay shipping, taxes and get tooling. That lathe is also very fast for the slow speeds. A beginner learning how to thread on that will be real challenge. You want at least 60 rpm to start. I still thread even slower than that on my SB 13x40.
I think you would be better off in the long run with a slightly smaller chuck and a bed of roughly 32" between centers which would give you the freedom to do both rifles and pistols and also be a convenient size for small screws.
In the video, the person has the whole barrel through the head stock but that requires using a 4 jaw chuck and mucking around getting the bore centered. A lot of fiddling around in my opinion. I think you are far better off having your tail stock accurately centered and then threading and chambering with the barrel outside the chuck. That also allows you to use a much smaller lathe although still keeping in mind that it would be one with a good solid bed etc
cheers mooncoon
The lathe would be a good choice for you, considering what you are planning on doing with it. The mill is a little on the small side, you will not be happy with that, you should look at something just a little heavier.
Nice small lathe btw, a lot better than the BB B2227L
