Magpul Art of the Dynamic Handgun

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Slide lock and bolt releases on guns can be reached by lefties as well as righties equally well.
Your talk of tactics is awesome except cover isn't always available and trying to pretend that running a charging handle or slide is 100% effective when it isn't is ridiculous. Otherwise people wouldn't have IA's to deal with problems that arise from them.
I guess what it comes down to is that your experience level doesn't convince any of us that you actually know what your talking about. Especially in light of the fact that so many Pros, be they cops, soldiers or competitors disagree with you. And not just on this forum.

As a right handed shooter how do I access the slide lock on a SIG P226? How would I do it as a lefty? How about the slide lock on an HK P7? What about weaker shooters who don't possess the finger strength to operate a slide lock? What about a left handed shooter firing dominant only, how does he/she solve a type one stoppage or reload with the slide lock?

You're right, cover isn't always available but it should be sought out and utilized whenever possible.

IA's are practiced to solve stoppages of the system, not charge handle or slide lock "induced" problems. Do explain how a charge handle that is non reciprocating can cause a stoppage?? Same question for the slide lock.

The BC and SL are both part of the IA process but both rely on the use of the CH and slide to perform their function first. You can't lock the bolt back without using the CH. You can't lock the slide to the rear without racking the slide to the rear. So which control cycles the action 100% of the time? It isn't the BC or slide lock. A type 2 or 3 stoppage is not caused by the CH or slide.

Again I ask, how does being a "pro" automatically translate into being an SME who knows "THE" way to operate a system? Who/what determines what level of experience is required to be considered either a "pro" or SME??

Last I checked, LEO's qualify annually and use their firearms rarely on the job. I guess that means they shoot paper just like competitors and enthusiasts do. To the best of my knowledge LEO's re-qualify, but never receive ongoing training or advanced tactics. I believe they shoot at ridiculously oversized targets that represent a small portion of the populace as well.

Soldiers receive the "gunfighter" training as part of their workup for a tour overseas. To the best of my knowledge this course has only been offered for less than a decade, so what were soldiers taught before that? I don't know if the "C7 rifle series" videos I watched are still in use but they're far from cutting edge and the methods are dated... About 1965 dated. Up until the mission in Afghanistan Canada had been involved in very few conflicts where shots were fired.

Competitors shoot paper as well. They also don't utilize cover or other live preserving tactics. Their gear is selected and setup to maximize speed not practicality, the range is flat and clear of debris and a walk through is often possible prior to the shoot.

So which criteria best reflects real world factors and by default makes one a "PRO" or SME?? The only common denominator I see is that they're all paid.

TDC

ETA: No disrespect to LEO's or MIL personnel. I strongly believe you folks receive the short end of the stick with regards to training and equipment. Both areas are under funded and under manned.
 
I'm not going to waste my time explaining how lefties would operate slide releases or paddles. Typing on the BB is enough of a PITA. Suffice it to say anyone who has received any quality training knows how. Throwing in one handed stuff brings about a whole different environment but its still quite easy to do.
If a persons finger are so weak they can't operate a release than obviously they can't operate a gun at all. So that stupid argument is out the window.
I suppose the easiest distinction as to when someone is recognized by their peers as a Pro or SME is when they typically become one and others then start listening to them. Its a Catch 22 I guess, but it obviously works especially in this instance. Regardless of your dogmatic beliefs, no one is buying what you're selling. At least not the pros.
 
I'm not going to waste my time explaining how lefties would operate slide releases or paddles. Typing on the BB is enough of a PITA. Suffice it to say anyone who has received any quality training knows how. Throwing in one handed stuff brings about a whole different environment but its still quite easy to do.
If a persons finger are so weak they can't operate a release than obviously they can't operate a gun at all. So that stupid argument is out the window.
I suppose the easiest distinction as to when someone is recognized by their peers as a Pro or SME is when they typically become one and others then start listening to them. Its a Catch 22 I guess, but it obviously works especially in this instance. Regardless of your dogmatic beliefs, no one is buying what you're selling. At least not the pros.

When you have access to a full keyboard do tell myself and others how a right handed user would access the slide lock on a SIG or HKP7. Throw in the lefties for good measure, you know, to validate your being a pro... I'm all ears.

I wouldn't expect pros to listen to me, they're pros. I mean once you've obtained pro status there is nothing else for you to learn right? So no reason to listen to a non pro. You talk about me being dogmatic, I'd look at what you posted regarding pros and my opinion..

TDC
 
Like I had stated earlier. Im a complete novice, noob, nub, etc. etc. Although this does not negate the fact I still cannot see the advantage to running the Slide/Charging handle on any given platform. As this is what I know (from the range) to charge one. Unless fired to empty... blah blah... hit the slide stop your loaded.

What makes the BC and Slide stop better? Yes i clearly understand the CH and running the slide. But what makes the BC and slide stop better when facing a stoppage? On the same note... what is a type 1, 2, and 3 stoppage? :redface:

Hypothetically... Zombies are coming (haha), you have to arm YOUR WIFE/CHILD/FATHER/BROTHER ETC ETC. with a firearm. Whom has never operated any firearm platform ever. What is the method you teach them in 15 seconds?

Yes I understand 15 seconds isnt long, but in all seriousness what can you show them to be utterly reliable with their limited experience (I know TDC's answer) with the limited time available to you. I put out this hypothetical situation because I do wish to understand more thoroughly the other side of the argument.

Like people have stated, they learn, take what they like, and adapt it into their shooting style/habits. This is what I am looking to do.

Thanks in advance to the responses.
 
In 15 seconds I give them a loaded gun tell them to point it at the zombies heads and pull the trigger. I also tell them to be prepared to shoot themselves if need be.
 
Are you asking how to use the slide lock on a Sig one handed?

Yes, how would one operate the slide lock on a SIG as a lefty or even as a righty. Would operating the slide stop be faster or slower than racking the slide? And how about the one handed issues?

For others in the thread

Type one stoppage is a failure to fire(bad round or empty chamber)

Type two stoppage is a failure to eject(stovepipe)

Type three stoppage is a double feed(failure to extract).

TDC
 
When you have access to a full keyboard do tell myself and others how a right handed user would access the slide lock on a SIG or HKP7. Throw in the lefties for good measure, you know, to validate your being a pro... I'm all ears.

I wouldn't expect pros to listen to me, they're pros. I mean once you've obtained pro status there is nothing else for you to learn right? So no reason to listen to a non pro. You talk about me being dogmatic, I'd look at what you posted regarding pros and my opinion..

TDC

TDC you are quite persistent aren't you. As for your question, quite simple, with your trigger finger, I do, with both my P7 and SIGS.
 
TDC;504639 I[CODE said:
[/CODE] wouldn't expect pros to listen to me, they're pros. I mean once you've obtained pro status there is nothing else for you to learn right? So no reason to listen to a non pro. You talk about me being dogmatic, I'd look at what you posted regarding pros and my opinion..
TDC

Police and military organizations are bound by ( inflexible) firearms policies, whether it be for good or bad. This is for liability reasons as well as to "qualify" large numbers of recruits, who are to meet a minimal standard upon graduation.

The training the "pros" receive also pumps them full of confidence and hype (there's nothing necessarily wrong with this, as you need this when fighting criminals or enemy combatants). The problem is that this can lead to a overconfidence/feeling that you know everything (because that's the way they/you were trained) and that they are so above everyone else out there in knowledge and ability that there is little else to be learned or considered.

I fear that attitudes like this will get oneself killed.

Special forces/private contractor types (from what little I've seen) seem to have a lot more policy and procedure flexibility as to training and firearm selection. Too bad this can't be done for more regular type organizations.
 
Yes, how would one operate the slide lock on a SIG as a lefty or even as a righty. Would operating the slide stop be faster or slower than racking the slide? And how about the one handed issues?


TDC

For right handed shooters, the slid lock is right where your thumb is. What is there not to get? And for left handed people, they use their trigger finger.

One handed is the same procedure except you rack the slide back on your holster or boot or whatever hard edge object and hold the slide back while your thumb (right handed) and trigger finger (left handed) pushes the slide lock up.
 
TDC you are quite persistent aren't you. As for your question, quite simple, with your trigger finger, I do, with both my P7 and SIGS.

Really, I didn't know you could release the slide with the slide lock on a P7. Do tell, how does one operate that very small control that is located near the proximal phalanges, the first knuckle from your palm(gun in left hand). I've tried and my fingers are not capable of bending back to their base then up to access the slide lock on a SIG and surely cannot reach the small control on the P7. Which by the way does not release the slide, it only catches it.

Police and military organizations are bound by ( inflexible) firearms policies, whether it be for good or bad. This is for liability reasons as well as to "qualify" large numbers of recruits, who are to meet a minimal standard upon graduation.

The training the "pros" receive also pumps them full of confidence and hype (there's nothing necessarily wrong with this, as you need this when fighting criminals or enemy combatants). The problem is that this can lead to a overconfidence/feeling that you know everything (because that's the way they/you were trained) and that they are so above everyone else out there in knowledge and ability that there is little else to be learned or considered.

I fear that attitudes like this will get oneself killed.

Special forces/private contractor types (from what little I've seen) seem to have a lot more policy and procedure flexibility as to training and firearm selection. Too bad this can't be done for more regular type organizations.

I agree, the level and quantity of training is often less than it should be thanks to politics and money.

For right handed shooters, the slid lock is right where your thumb is. What is there not to get? And for left handed people, they use their trigger finger.

One handed is the same procedure except you rack the slide back on your holster or boot or whatever hard edge object and hold the slide back while your thumb (right handed) and trigger finger (left handed) pushes the slide lock up.

I understand the right hand thumb but does that work for all shooters? You know, like women with smaller weaker digits? Your thumb is the weakest digit on the hand. As for lefties using their trigger finger, I can't get my fingers to bend back and up to access it. I would really like to see a photo if someone could snap one. Another point, does using the finger or thumb work with wet/bloody/muddy/gloved hands? Is it faster to try and press a lever with the weakest digit or just grab the slide with all FIVE digits?

The one handed methods you mention are solid. However, clearing a type two stoppage according to Magpul does not require racking the slide. whereas the single handed method you mention does. Magpul also teaches the use of the slide lock for reloads as opposed to the slide. So now we're learning two separate actions to solve the same problem depending on how you're shooting(single handed or both)? Is it necessary to learn multiple methods when one works for both situations, most users, most makes/models, under most conditions??

TDC
 
oh canuck 44.... you just posted the antimatter video.... not only did he say TDC's method was the slowest and using the slide release was the fastest but if you also noticed he also did an admin check to make sure a round was chambered.

YOUR THE DEBIL !!!
 
This Jason fella guy obviously has no real world experience. If he did, he'd realize he's made numerous mistakes in his little Internet video. He should get some proper training from an expert or pro

Besides, anyone and their dog can make a video and put it on YouTube. Ive even seen some on the YouTube where this fat guy was defending a cameraman taking pictures from down range, while people were shooting!!!

Crazy stuff this Internet.......
 
This Jason fella guy obviously has no real world experience. If he did, he'd realize he's made numerous mistakes in his little Internet video. He should get some proper training from an expert or pro

Besides, anyone and their dog can make a video and put it on YouTube. Ive even seen some on the YouTube where this fat guy was defending a cameraman taking pictures from down range, while people were shooting!!!

Crazy stuff this Internet.......


Anyone know someone who has actually taken three week-end tactical shooting courses toped off by a years subscription of Soldiers of Fortune? Come on you guys think! Throw me a bone...

Take Care

Bob
 
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