Marty...I am not a competition shooter, nor do I have any "competition" rifles although I have no doubt that some are capable. You are looking for sub-1/2 MOA groups ... not sub- 1/3MOA groups. And I can assure you based on personal experience with sub-1/2 MOA....that it is not necessary to anneal more frequently than every 6 or so reloads (unless shooting very hot), it is not necessary to tumble brass (ever), and it is not necessary turn necks more than once.
Making my 308 reloads better part 2
- Thread starter MartyK2500
- Start date
10-4
Although at 1/2 moa it's my end game for this rifle without expecting more from it, once barrel is shot out i will get a good match barrel for it.
Will compete with it early 2018 in PRS if everything lines up as it should.
Trying to get best reload habits as i possibly can, if overdoing it brings no harm i do not mind.
If turning every cycle would bring harm with factory barrel i would stop that asap.
Although at 1/2 moa it's my end game for this rifle without expecting more from it, once barrel is shot out i will get a good match barrel for it.
Will compete with it early 2018 in PRS if everything lines up as it should.
Trying to get best reload habits as i possibly can, if overdoing it brings no harm i do not mind.
If turning every cycle would bring harm with factory barrel i would stop that asap.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Turning necks serves two purposes... ensure enough clearance the chamber.... maintain consistent neck tension (coupled with annealing).
Then of course, weighing powder charges as you are.
The little steps with proper rests and shooting technique, allow you to lower the vertical as well as minimize your group size. May not look that important at SR, but I can assure you it pays at LR.
We were doing some bullet testing at 1000yds before a match this weekend. The 7mm bullet we are developing was landing with 1/4 min vertical at that distance. Great bullet, yes... but without good loading and set up, you wouldn't get there.
Does it matter? That is entirely up to you and your accuracy needs but the smaller the dispersion, the more often we hit what we are aiming at.... the further you want to go, the more all of this matters.
Jerry
I haven’t had the chance to shoot pass 500yds yet
I imagine once i get further all the little details count
And now firmly believe you are the one that had the answer to my neck sizing/turning issues
Tonight i have lightly dabbed a qtip with resize lube, and rubbed it around and inside the neck area.
Experiment was with 50 casings.
Not one gave any resistance sizing neck, not one had a hard time inserting neck turner pilot inside neck
I remember in the days I’d dry tumble pistol brass with treated media, the brass would feel lightly slippery.
Compared to now with wet SS tumble, everything feels bone dry
Ordering a dry media tumbler and will drop wet tumble
As my dillon 650 is also struggling since i wet tumble, and had to use case lube which would gum up the case feeder
I imagine once i get further all the little details count
And now firmly believe you are the one that had the answer to my neck sizing/turning issues
Tonight i have lightly dabbed a qtip with resize lube, and rubbed it around and inside the neck area.
Experiment was with 50 casings.
Not one gave any resistance sizing neck, not one had a hard time inserting neck turner pilot inside neck
I remember in the days I’d dry tumble pistol brass with treated media, the brass would feel lightly slippery.
Compared to now with wet SS tumble, everything feels bone dry
Ordering a dry media tumbler and will drop wet tumble
As my dillon 650 is also struggling since i wet tumble, and had to use case lube which would gum up the case feeder
Last edited:
Tagged with interest.
Marty, FWIW, Regarding neck tension, from my experience.
- turning necks required a bit of lube which you have figured out. I use K&M neck turning system, imperial wax for lube and recently started to re - neck turn after the fourth firing. I was surprised at how much material does come off, just as Jerry stated. I ultrasonic clean and that provided issues much like what ss tumbling would create.
- I used to use the lee collet die to set the inside neck diameter prior to neck turning...purchased the K&M die to set proper I.D. and to remove variables that I encountered using the collet die.
- annealing now after 4 firings
- all of the above were sources of inconsistencies regarding neck tension. Going over four firings and neck tension became erratic.
- above being stated, more frequent operations (less than 4x fired) ie. did not provide enough dividends with neck tension or results at the range.
Again for what it's worth.
I am interested in the progression and what works in your situation.
Rgards
Ronre
Marty, FWIW, Regarding neck tension, from my experience.
- turning necks required a bit of lube which you have figured out. I use K&M neck turning system, imperial wax for lube and recently started to re - neck turn after the fourth firing. I was surprised at how much material does come off, just as Jerry stated. I ultrasonic clean and that provided issues much like what ss tumbling would create.
- I used to use the lee collet die to set the inside neck diameter prior to neck turning...purchased the K&M die to set proper I.D. and to remove variables that I encountered using the collet die.
- annealing now after 4 firings
- all of the above were sources of inconsistencies regarding neck tension. Going over four firings and neck tension became erratic.
- above being stated, more frequent operations (less than 4x fired) ie. did not provide enough dividends with neck tension or results at the range.
Again for what it's worth.
I am interested in the progression and what works in your situation.
Rgards
Ronre
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Jerry, do you think that ultrasonic cleaning does the same?
I have access to dry graphite powder. Thinking of bringing some home in a small pill container.
Any process that removes the "dirt" in the neck can produce issue with seating. If you really scrub with a brush, can cause issues.
Redding offers a graphite lube which should work well. I am sorry but have no experience with it or other graphite products. Just make sure it can't contaminate the powder.
Jerry
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I would check turning each firing just to see if any brass is removed. That really depends on the alloy and how much pressure there is but I have yet to find any brand that didn't flow after 2 firings so waiting for 4 is why you have so much to remove.
That is interesting to hear about the K&M pilot sizing. I use Forster stuff and it fits the collet sized brass perfectly in the various cals I shoot.
Imperial wax is wonderful stuff... use very little.
Glad you have seeing positive results on target.
Jerry
I will keep you posted.
Next saturday going to the range and will try my new batch of 50 casings which i have all neck sized and turned without resistance.
Hand cleaned them inside and outside neck so the bullet doesnt ''slip'' in.
By next saturday, i will also have had my rifle bedded.
Got an MDT ESS chassis, but had worn off the cerakote inside chassis as action was moving in there, i must be a 1 in 100 case that did that but oh well.
If there are improvements, it will be hard to attribute how much is due to neck tension, and how much is due to bedding.
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
Simple... bring some ammo with your sticky necks and just shoot groups with both types of ammo in your new bedded chassis.
of course, nether may now shoot as you have changed the tuning on the barrel but.....
isn't this fun
Jerry
of course, nether may now shoot as you have changed the tuning on the barrel but.....
isn't this fun
Jerry
I asked a friend familiar with SBR about the extent of their NK turning and was told that some of the top dogs, including Tony Boyer, do two “turns” ... initial brass prep ...up front, and do not touch it for the remaining life of the brass. Given that these guys are agging sub .2 @ 100yds, that seems sufficient.
I guess at this point it's the same type of ''debated suject'' than bore maintenance.
Some people clean, some people let be, i am realising that neck turning is quite divided.
So far i don't clean my bore and i neck turn, we'll see what gives!
Some people clean, some people let be, i am realising that neck turning is quite divided.
So far i don't clean my bore and i neck turn, we'll see what gives!
Hey Jerry.
At the time I was using the collet die to form down to mandrel size I wasn't annealing yet. Aside: At that time I had a pile of wtf casings to go along with a plethora of other things that I couldn't solve immediately. Chased my tail around a bit including using federal brass that I had collected for years. I think I could go back and prove to myself that I could do it... but now that I have the sizer I won't look back.
Wax is a minimum.
Re neck turning sooner...I'll try to do it after a couple of firings on handful of casings. I'm at a limit with the equipment I'm shooting and the cycle times for turning/annealing seem to be providing the best return on consistent accuracy vs. my time.
Just speaking for myself here...there's no way I'd be making loose clovers at 100m without some of these techniques with my rifles. I've got four rounds of my best saved from 4 years ago for a comparison one day. Never believed I could be sub MOA at 200 plus either.
That's why I'm interested in Marty's thread. Hope he gets what he's after.
Regards
Ronr
Marty, FWIW, I use the imperial dry neck lube after neck sizing. I used to have a home made thing with a nylon brush and Forster's motor mica at the bottom of the brush. (white dry film lubricant) It worked ok but a little awkward and a little too Red Green. I never would have considered this, but from ultrasonic cleaning the necks are too clean. It was by necessity, not desire to try another "what if I try this..." to the process.
Aside: The best processes are the shortest possible to achieve the goal at hand. The shorter the process the easier to control. The more steps, the more opportunity for error and variables and even confusion. For some people, in order to satisfy their needs that everything is working as it should, would need to measure everything all the time. Reloading wouldn't be fun for me then. I started baseline process first and then added steps until the problem went away or accuracy improved. Lots of help from those here but not all things offered had an improvement at the range or gave me more sleep.
Hope you achieve the accuracy you are searching for Marty. I'm interested to see how this turns out.
Regards
Ronr
Thanks!
I have only been reloading for rifle since april-may, still got a ways to learn but getting there.
I did save a few emails Jerry sent me back and forward, everytime i tried something he’d suggest i was gaining 1/16 to 1/8 moa along the way.
Really cool to see your 1 moa loads shrink to 1/3 moa.
I also have a feeling, once my chassis is bedded, i won’t be looking for anything more from my reloads.
All my groups, or almost all, have 4 bullets in almost same hole, and a flyer thats often same level or higher.
That’s where i am blaming chassis, or anyways hope it’s chassis.
I am thinking to myself, if this flyer would be a flinch the hole would be lower.
Still new to rifle, compared to pistol things might not be all the same.
Shooting a rifle feels like when i took ISSF pistol classes, instead of front sight focus it’s crosshairs focus.
Jerry, just sold my wet tumbler kit and going back dry media corncob and walnut.
Rifle aside, my dillon 650 will appreciate it.
Since going wet, resizing 9mm on a dillon is more tedious than a lubed 308 case on a single stage lee.
And i am sure, my rifle case neck work will also greatly benefit from it.
I have only been reloading for rifle since april-may, still got a ways to learn but getting there.
I did save a few emails Jerry sent me back and forward, everytime i tried something he’d suggest i was gaining 1/16 to 1/8 moa along the way.
Really cool to see your 1 moa loads shrink to 1/3 moa.
I also have a feeling, once my chassis is bedded, i won’t be looking for anything more from my reloads.
All my groups, or almost all, have 4 bullets in almost same hole, and a flyer thats often same level or higher.
That’s where i am blaming chassis, or anyways hope it’s chassis.
I am thinking to myself, if this flyer would be a flinch the hole would be lower.
Still new to rifle, compared to pistol things might not be all the same.
Shooting a rifle feels like when i took ISSF pistol classes, instead of front sight focus it’s crosshairs focus.
Jerry, just sold my wet tumbler kit and going back dry media corncob and walnut.
Rifle aside, my dillon 650 will appreciate it.
Since going wet, resizing 9mm on a dillon is more tedious than a lubed 308 case on a single stage lee.
And i am sure, my rifle case neck work will also greatly benefit from it.
Shoot a larger sample group (say 10-15 rounds) and it will show you if it is a rifle problem or you taking a dump.
For example: Here are 8 rounds under 1/2 moa at 300 yards and two off to the right. A very definitive case of "Oops I heard a toilet flush.....twice".
Poor recoil management or trigger pull, almost always the case.
Cheers,
It started with groups getting bigger and bigger each visit, then i had tought my neck tension is really screwed up.
Read an article about bedding chassis.
Decided to take action out and look.
There was this paste that had formed between action and chassis, kind of a mix of cerakote, bluing, and oily.
Chassis has 4 definite wear marks that cerakote wore off, the wear marks match on action as it wore the blueing off.
Everything was initially installed per instructions with specific torque recommendations
Cleaned everything, reassembled, gained back 1/3 moa with same ammo next visit
Read an article about bedding chassis.
Decided to take action out and look.
There was this paste that had formed between action and chassis, kind of a mix of cerakote, bluing, and oily.
Chassis has 4 definite wear marks that cerakote wore off, the wear marks match on action as it wore the blueing off.
Everything was initially installed per instructions with specific torque recommendations
Cleaned everything, reassembled, gained back 1/3 moa with same ammo next visit
Excellent idea will do thanks for the idea!
Jerry did point something out my gunsmith also told me, i might be up for a new load development as this new bedding might affect harmonics
Once everything is settled up i will make sure to post results
Sure i know little about rifles at the moment, but this savage 5R, got 1.630” headspace and 175s SMKs are touching lands at 2.745”ish
In my books the potential is there, not custom rifle potential, but id like to see my econo precision build work out, as i put all my spare cash on reloading and scope, was little left for rifle and chassis
Edit, got nothing better to do my rifle is out and i am in between changing ipsc pistols,don’t have an 1911 here...
Am i overscoped for the remaining rifle in my safe?
Jerry did point something out my gunsmith also told me, i might be up for a new load development as this new bedding might affect harmonics
Once everything is settled up i will make sure to post results
Sure i know little about rifles at the moment, but this savage 5R, got 1.630” headspace and 175s SMKs are touching lands at 2.745”ish
In my books the potential is there, not custom rifle potential, but id like to see my econo precision build work out, as i put all my spare cash on reloading and scope, was little left for rifle and chassis
Edit, got nothing better to do my rifle is out and i am in between changing ipsc pistols,don’t have an 1911 here...
Am i overscoped for the remaining rifle in my safe?
Last edited:
