Marlin Guide 18.5" vs Marlin 22" Barrel velocity

I suppose the theory on the big heavy 45-70 projectiles is that should you shoot a charging animal, it will hopefully drive a long wound channel through bone and whatever else, causing as much damage and blood loss as possible. There is most likely a good deal of truth to this. Which is why I carry a 450 Marlin with 400 gr Barnes busters for protection. However, I align with Ardent on the hunting angel. I carry a normal fast moving cartridge when hunting, as I shoot through the lungs/heart and want more expansion and wider wound channel and "shock" damage to the vitals. With that said, the only way to guarantee and instant kill on any animal is to destroy the central nervous system, ie. brain or spine. But back to the original poster's question, I don't know what the actual velocity loss is but I can't imagine it would be significant with the 45-70. Would like to know if anyone has the chrony results of a head to head test. Just out of pure curiosity.
 
SHELL SHUCKER said:
The last fat bear I dumped was with this. The 525gr. Lyman cast projectile severed the spine behind the skull at a leisurely 1100 fps. @ 30 yds.
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That's an example of marksmanship, well done. Of course a .22 Hornet placed (smallest BC legal bear chambering) the same, will do the same however.

babine_lake said:
I suppose the theory on the big heavy 45-70 projectiles is that should you shoot a charging animal, it will hopefully drive a long wound channel through bone and whatever else, causing as much damage and blood loss as possible. There is most likely a good deal of truth to this. Which is why I carry a 450 Marlin with 400 gr Barnes busters for protection. However, I align with Ardent on the hunting angel. I carry a normal fast moving cartridge when hunting, as I shoot through the lungs/heart and want more expansion and wider wound channel and "shock" damage to the vitals. With that said, the only way to guarantee and instant kill on any animal is to destroy the central nervous system, ie. brain or spine. But back to the original poster's question, I don't know what the actual velocity loss is but I can't imagine it would be significant with the 45-70. Would like to know if anyone has the chrony results of a head to head test. Just out of pure curiosity.
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I agree with you, just think .45-70 folks are a bit misguided as there are many cartridges that will both penetrate like a train on bears AND shock, I carry .375 H&H for coastal grizzly guiding.

sodburner said:
What stops a griz Instantly... 12 gauge slug?
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No guarantees and certainly not from a slug, but a .375 or anything really that's moving at 2,400-2,500fps plus has a much more dramatic effect on game. Doesn't need to be a grizzly either, you'll see a distinct difference as you pass that speed threshold. I did truckloads of culling with reduced .375 H&H loads running hot .45-70 speeds, and the results were not impressive beside the .30-06 next to me, for equal recoil. Everything died they just went further, and at the time I was a militant "slow and steady" cartridge fan. A century ago they learned in Africa speed wins, and we're not talking silly speed, just 2,400-2,500fps and up. North America still hasn't caught up, and many still pack stuff designed in the 19th century for bears.
 
marcoman said:
As much as I am enamoured with short barreled levers that fling heavy bullets my experience with the 45-70 on game aligns with what Ardent is saying. I had one mule deer doe that took two 405gr JSP's through boiler without much reaction. A third through the shoulders put her down.

Punchy with good penetration, but not a bang flop cartridge. Even more so with hardcast.
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Comparing two different caliber with two different bullet construction is apples to oranges. How do you think the 30-06 would perform if it has a hard cast bullet?
Beside SP are pretty lousy at expanding.

Here's an exemple comparing Nato 5,56 ball vs 7,62 ball: they don't have the same bullet construction. The 5,56 is too fast to properly penetrate so they add a steel tip penetrator in front of the lead core to make up for it's shortcoming. You can also make a 5,56 perform ''just as good'' as a 7,62 ball ammo (mk 262 mod 1) but it cost four times as more to produce. Is that a fair comparison? Bullet construction matters a lot, and I suspect the 45-70 would perform better if it had a bullet construction that enable the 45-70 to deliver all of its energy into the game.
 
Not disagreeing with what has been said, but for Ted and ardent, what do you believe has caused the upswing in 45/70 popularity if it is a mediocre hunting cartridge?

When I bought mine, I was under the impression that is was one of the best in terms if penetration and the ability to take put shoulder bones and incapacitate a large animal.
 
A article from the Terminal Ballistics Studies site.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/.45-70+U.S+Government.html

Pretty much backs Ardents points. Like any other caliber, the 45-70 has its strengths and weaknesses. I like the article, how it explores those issues, along with bullet placement and choice.

Through out his knowledge base for small bore projectiles, he places 2600ft/sec as the threshhold below which hydrostatic shock stops. 2200ft/sec for the medium bores, and with soft projectiles 1700ft/sec for the 45-70.
 
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Heron a lot of things have become popular for questionable reasons, especially in the hunting and shooting world. .45-70 / .450 Marlin / .450 Bushmaster yada yada have seen a resurgence due to rather American thinking that a .45 is somehow a big hole, and that penetration wins everything. There's also a presumption that .45-70 et al are powerful, when they're really the lowest end of their class by good margin when you start looking at Winchchesters, Lotts, and Rigbys. Trouble is most shooters can't handle a .458 Lott, the cartridge that just barely gets its .458 payload up to appropriate speed to shock, so folks grab a .45-70 and figure it must be nearly as good. Bigger is better thinking.

.45-70 and .450 Marlin are manageable recoil guns for the .30-06 accustomed population with a big looking hole in the end of the barrel. It gets left behind rather convincely by the humble .30-06 is the problem, again due to being just too darn slow. A .30-06 let alone a .300, .338, or .375 with a good bullet also penetrate a big bear stem to stern, so the penetration argument strikes me as peculiar. The shoulder breaking argument doesn't jive with me either as faster cartridges crush shoulders likely even better, and send damaging bone fragments in all sorts of directions a .45-70 won't. Also if you're thinking defensive shooting good luck breaking the shoulders in my opinion, they're not really presented to you. A .243 offers enough penetration to catch the CNS from the front, and by good measure.

This large grizzly shoulder took a 2,700fps bullet... Doesn't really get much more "bone smashing" than that.

 
Very good insight from men wiser and more experienced than I.

When I bought my 4570 it was for a, I'm a sucker for levers, b, 400 grains is a big bloody bullet, and c, it's near the top of my personal recoil threshold.
I have a 375 h&h but will admit I don't particularly enjoy shooting it in any volume.

The group I hunt with ascribes to the notion that if you take a big bullet and punch it through the shoulders of an animal, that's a dead animal, regardless of speed.
 
The 30 WCF and 303 Savage killed and buried the 45-70. Nostalgia brought it back.

Somehow this turned into a grizzly thread, but I doubt the OP will find enough ballistic difference between 18.5" and 22" to worry about.
 
Grizzlies were brought up on the first page in the context of .45-70s being the gun to drop them on the spot inside 100 yards, it snowballed from there when the statement raised a couple of our eyebrows. The same applies to all game, Grizzlies have just been the examples here.

Very good points on the .30-30, .303 Savage, and really all the cartridges of the small bore nitro era from the 8x57 on. The same class swept Africa too, they're just far more effective and it's all down to the speed, which comes with other benefits like trajectory.
 
My personal rule of thumb is that any cartridge that dumps more energy into my shoulder better dump more energy into the animal I am shooting at...... .45/70 doesn't interest me
 
Ardent said:
Grizzlies were brought up on the first page in the context of .45-70s being the gun to drop them on the spot inside 100 yards, it snowballed from there when the statement raised a couple of our eyebrows. The same applies to all game, Grizzlies have just been the examples here.

Very good points on the .30-30, .303 Savage, and really all the cartridges of the small bore nitro era from the 8x57 on. The same class swept Africa too, they're just far more effective and it's all down to the speed, which comes with other benefits like trajectory.
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This all said, isn't the 4570 in a lever gun a fantastic rifle for the walking north American hunter who will generally get fairly close to his quarry, will often be shooting at a moving target and wants something relatively light to carry.
And yes, I can appreciate there is a multitude of rounds and rifles that will do this.
 
to throw this into the mix, in a brushy scenario, where twigs or branches may provide issue, which will track better, a .30 cal at 2700 fps or a .458 at 1700 fps?

I'm thinking this would be one of the biggest reasons for the .45/70 resurgence in popularity. As far as brush guns go, is there anything better?
 
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