Mauser milsurp ammo-a heads up.

[LawrenceN]

Well, myself and a few friends finally got to the range! the lock-downs had lifted enough that we could go and get some shooting in. To make a long story short, my buddy has a lovely BYF44 Mauser and was banging off this Russian ammo. I happened to look at a few fired cases, and it gave me cause for concern. He had 2 fail to fire rounds but the bases showed inconsistent pressure and (to me) signs of overpressure. He said he had the headspacing checked when he bought it and considering that most of the ammo seemed OK, I don't think it's the rifle. Here are some pics of the expended ammo. In the second pic, you see a dud next to a normal firing, a pierced primer, and a severely flattened primer. I took a pic of 20 random cases so you can see the differences. So, a question to my fellow gunnies. Am I being a nervous Nellie or would this inconsistency give you cause for concern? I couldn't find the one casing that showed signs of blow-out near the base, so incipient case head separation. This stuff is all Berdan primed so it's not reloadable. Any input would be appreciated.

 

[Tomasaurus]

Looks like the ammo has some overpressure problems. I wouldn't be concerned, k98s are insanely strong. Not sure I can recommend shooting it though. You could pull the bullet and attempt to fix the cartridge.

 

[Potashminer]

I have no experience with that brand of ammo, so can not help on the pressure questions - pierced primer though - as per the Kuhnhausen book on Mausers, he writes a bit about the firing pin tip - must be round - a half of a hemisphere - not pointy or flat ended. I have some used milsurps here that headspace checked fine, but with magnifier on the firing pin tip, could see chip had flaked off - the "long way" - as if "hardened" through use? and then piece fell off? So would have still been very close to correct firing pin length, but the pin tip shape was not as described in the book - so I changed it out for a "good one". He also describes to check a mauser firing pin protrusion from the bolt face - mentions doing it with firing pin all the way forward to stops, not held up by any residual spring action - so actually wanting to see how far it truly can fly forward, not where it comes to rest with cocking piece in "fired" position.

I do not know if that is re-packaged mil surp ammo?? Was always a question in my mind - mil surp stuff almost always produced by lowest bidder - to meet a gov't spec - so not made to be the "best" possible, but to meet a minimum standard or performance level at least possible cost. So random samplings to check for compliance - but vast majority of any ammo has to be "fired" to "check it". I presume that means a number of failures are not only inevitable, but acceptable. If there is a "problem" every 100,000 rounds fired, and will cost an additional 1 cent per round to eliminate that problem, probably not worth to do, for many militaries. Mil surp system, generally, is to chamber, to fire without blowing up rifle or injuring the shooter, to extract, to discard brass, and to reload another "fresh" round. Despite the issues that you point out, that ammo seems to have done exactly what mil surp ammo was intended to do? The notion of recovering brass, or even analyzing the brass after firing, seems to be a foreign concept for most mil surp ammo??

Should be a picture below of a problem firing pin tip - was actually from a Winchester made P14 - and led me to discover that "E" and "R" firing pins do not "drop in" to a Winchester cocking piece without grinding, etc. Picture taken with a cell phone, through a magnifying glass - might need to zoom in on picture to see the damage at the tip.

 

[tiriaq]

Try other ammunition. That eliminates that variable.
If there was an incipient separation, get the rifle checked again with proper gauges. It is not unusual for a used rifle to accept a No Go gauge; this is not necessarily a problem. If it accepts a Field gauge, there is a problem. Excess headspace can be addressed by using appropriately prepared handloads.
The firing pin assembly should be removed when the gauge is used for best feel.
Carefully inspect the firing pin assembly. Strength of mainspring. Firing pin fit, shape and protrusion.

 

[Rayleigh_Scattering]

Ruined by age and bad storage.

Sold as scrap metal for $1/kg.

Through a vibratory polisher and 20 at a time into a $0.75 cardboard box.

Sell to distributor for $5/box.

Retail for $15/box.

 

[diabeticfreak]

I have a bunch of this ammo, and a Spanish Airforce Mauser that they bought from German in the late 1930s, pre-WWII. The bolt on the Mauser got sticky after a few rounds of this stuff, but other ammo I have put through it has been fine. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my ammo, but it's definitely going to the back of the "use" pile for sure.

 

[LawrenceN]

Ruined by age and bad storage.

Sold as scrap metal for $1/kg.

Through a vibratory polisher and 20 at a time into a $0.75 cardboard box.

Sell to distributor for $5/box.

Retail for $15/box.

A fair question; do you know this for a fact with this ammo or only informed speculation? The ammo doesn't show signs of polishing and interestingly, I've noticed that each casing is faintly marked on the body "K(in a square)8X57IS". I just finished pulling the bullets on the 2 duds and weighing the powder charges. I re-calibrated my scale and one casing contained 44.2 gr. of flake powder and the other contained 45.1 gr. I may get him to sacrifice 10 rounds for deconstruction, do the same again, and tabulate the results. Personally, I'm not happy if I'm .02 gr. off my thrown charge so to be a full grain (or near to) off would certainly explain the pressure signs.

 

[tiriaq]

Ruined by age and bad storage.

Sold as scrap metal for $1/kg.

Through a vibratory polisher and 20 at a time into a $0.75 cardboard box.

Sell to distributor for $5/box.

Retail for $15/box.

In the absence of a headstamp how do you know this?
And $0.75 for a cardboard box - that much?

 

[Potashminer]

A fair question; do you know this for a fact with this ammo or only informed speculation? The ammo doesn't show signs of polishing and interestingly, I've noticed that each casing is faintly marked on the body "K(in a square)8X57IS". I just finished pulling the bullets on the 2 duds and weighing the powder charges. I re-calibrated my scale and one casing contained 44.2 gr. of flake powder and the other contained 45.1 gr. I may get him to sacrifice 10 rounds for deconstruction, do the same again, and tabulate the results. Personally, I'm not happy if I'm .02 gr. off my thrown charge so to be a full grain (or near to) off would certainly explain the pressure signs.

Variation in powder charge - long time ago - like early 1980's, a buddy and I liked to blast at clay pigeons in a field - hand thrower - would buy 12 gauge ammo - cheapest we could find - in Army and Navy store in Saskatoon - wooden crates - came from Bulgaria or Romania, or somewhere like that?? I think?? Noticeable difference in shells - from "pops" to must have been equivalent to 3" magnum recoil - and smell left was if hair or something was used as wadding, instead of felt?? But, main redeeming feature was "cheap", compared to anything else. It tied up his Remington semi auto more than once - my Browning pump just kept chugging - but that was "old days" - long time ago...

FYI - I have pulled many bullets from unknown rounds to weigh them - with an RCBS collet puller. Almost never leaves a mark on the bullet. I dump out the powder into glass bowl, partial full length resize with pin removed from stem, then dump back in that powder, and re-seat the bullet. "Partial re-size" so I do not lube the case bodies - and only resize part of the neck, as a result. Had read of others that pull multiple, like hundreds of, rounds - dump all powder into a container, then re-meter that powder more equally back into the cases, and re-install bullets. Not sure if the re-sizing of neck is really needed or not - I always have been doing that. Sometimes, some mil-surp bullets have a sealant between bullet and case neck - seems to work okay to first seat that bullet a couple thou deeper - breaks the sealant - then pull much easier. I did one batch of about 30 lead tipped bullets in a stainless pin wet tumbler - made them nice and shiny - cleaned up nice - did not seem to affect the exposed lead tips at all.

 

[The_Red_Rabbit]

Its the ammo.

 

[Potashminer]

OP - I do not know if it helps - I found a discussion forum on-line about that exact ammo - by TechCrim - at least one poster saying it is re-worked 1930's German military ammo - no headstamp - discussions about exact shape of the Berdan primer holes, sealants, etc. The "K" in a box, etc., is apparently their attempt to meet C.I.P. requirements for commercial sale of that ammo in Europe.

go here: https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/techcrim-russian-8x57-is/26508

 

[Rayleigh_Scattering]

In the absence of a headstamp how do you know this?
And $0.75 for a cardboard box - that much?

Conjecture only, based on “shiny unlabelled berdan that acts like it’s expired”.

And that conjecture is heavily dosed with the cynicism that my few first-hand glimpses at the dark hairy backside of the surplus re-selling market have given me.

They might also be production seconds diverted from the scrap stream. That happens.

Or just a really unlucky box from an otherwise excellent, first rate manufacturer. That happens too.

>0.75

Hey, it’s a really nice box

 

[call2arms]

That looks like the Canada Ammo 8mm. I have used some. Flat primers. No other issues. Considerably more recoil than NA commercial ammunition

 

[LawrenceN]

Thank you all for your input. I pulled the bullets from the 2 dud rounds and checked the powder charge. There may be some defective primers but the real culprit seems to be inconsistent powder charges. Out of the two duds, one had 44.2 gr. and the other had 45.1 gr. I don't know about my fellow reloaders, but I'll accept a .01 gr. difference when I'm reloading. I'm not doing long range precision shooting. I may even accept .02 as long as I'm not loading to max recommended load. But almost a whole grain difference? Unacceptable! The distributor should be told and shooters should be warned.

 

[Potashminer]

You are a damn sight more fussy loader than I am, and must have a much better scale!! I use a Hornady balance beam - shows 10 grains on one scale, 1 grains on another scale and 0.1 grains on the third scale, so to XX.X is the finest that I can set it - maybe "split" the pointer markings to think I can go to XX.05, but suspect that I am fooling myself. For "red line" loads, pointer is going to be within a single granule of powder of "0" - tend not to use much ball powder, but noticed they can be trickled to pretty much exact, as well. Just never owned any volume measure that I would trust to load directly when I know that I am very near "the edge". But blaster and practice ammo - known to be a grain or more away from max, will just get every 10th one or so weighed - I am okay with up to +.1 or down to -.1 grain for that volume thrown loadings - kind of was the point of trying to find that Optimal Charge Weight - 0.1 grain more or less isn't going to make a difference...

 

[Potashminer]

A further recollection that might help you - I think it was unknown factory Norma loads we were trying to figure out - 7x61S&H - so likely 30 or 40 years old - pulled bullets and poured out powder and weighed it - quite a bit of variation - good light and looked into cases - still some left in there - clumped or packed close around the primer hole. So, worth a look inside when comparing one to other - to make sure it all came out!!

 

[SustainingGopher]

My buddy has a pile of this stuff for his k98. Seems to be the most affordable 8mm Mauser ammo available. I did notice a sticky bolt when firing it, didn’t have a close look at any of the brass I will see if he still has some.

 

[Potashminer]

I must say, multiple posts on this thread referring to the stuff as 8mm Mauser. That is SAAMI's name for a reduce pressure version of this cartridge. European C.I.P., uses a high pressure, original, level, is at it says on that box - 8x57 IS (or JS) - is NOT the same stuff as an 8mm Mauser. Probably demonstrate why SAAMI felt obligated to "protect" North American users who could not differentiate between 8x57I and 8x57IS, as is expected to be done in Europe.

 

[Suther]

I must say, multiple posts on this thread referring to the stuff as 8mm Mauser. That is SAAMI's name for a reduce pressure version of this cartridge. European C.I.P., uses a high pressure, original, level, is at it says on that box - 8x57 IS (or JS) - is NOT the same stuff as an 8mm Mauser. Probably demonstrate why SAAMI felt obligated to "protect" North American users who could not differentiate between 8x57I and 8x57IS, as is expected to be done in Europe.

Two different pressure levels for the same diameter bullet? I knew about there being two different bore diameters for "8mm Mauser" (318cal and 323 cal I think it is?), and I suspect the older of the two probably has a lower pressure level, but are you saying there are two pressure levels for 323cal stuff?

 

[Potashminer]

Yes. Go to kwk or another site with the pressure ratings. Go to PPU website - they load for both and use both names - much lower pressure limit by SAAMI in their "8mm Mauser" - that is SAAMI name for it - not a name from Europe - because a North American might use it in a .318" bore rifle and would not blow his head off with the SAAMI loading. European CIP differentiates between the bore sizes - 8x57I and 8x57IS. And European ammo makers will load for 8x57IS (sometimes spelled as "JS", instead of "IS"). PPU also loads for North America - 8mm Mauser - same bullet, same brass, about 200 fps less velocity...

go here: http://kwk.us/pressures.html - SAAMI versus CIP piezo limits for 8x57JS - 35K versus 57K in PSI; 37K versus 49K using crusher - so that would be CUP units.

EDIT 7-Jun-2021 - was able to get to PPU website - 8mm Mauser - 200 grain Match - bullet used is B-451 - 665 m/s; 8x57IS - 200 grain Match - bullet used is B-451 (same bullet) - 740 m/s. So, 75 m/s difference. That is pretty much 250 ft/s difference. Will find similar with the regular soft point hunting loads. 8mm Mauser versus 8x57IS PPU factory loads.

Basically, if you go to a store in Canada and bought a box of PPU 8x57JS, and a box of PPU 8mm Mauser, you bought two different loading that will both fit and work in your WWII 7.92 marked Mauser rifle - significant difference in "power" though, even with identical bullet weights. Most likely the source of the stories about how "wimpy" the 8mm Mauser was, compared to 30-06, because SAAMI limited it to be like that. Now load up 8x57JS and do the comparison... Mix up likely most often occurred when gun rag writers (especially American) wrote as if "8mm Mauser" was interchangeable name for "8x57" and never bothered with the letters that differentiate between the bore sizes, and who's only experience was with SAAMI compliant American loaded ammo.

I do not know if they exist, but a North American made rifle, with barrel stamp as "8mm Mauser", is using the SAAMI designation, and should meet SAAMI requirements - would not think it is "rated" for the European 8x57JS loads, but I do not know that...

If someone screwed a barrel onto a receiver and stamped it as "8x57" - not sure what that is - is neither a SAAMI, nor a CIP, name for any cartridge.