Mil vs MOA
- Thread starter GundamZero
- Start date
Basically just pick one and make sure both the reticle and turrets on your scope are the same. IE MIL MIL or MOA MOA. As in if you want a mildot reticle make sure the turrets are mil.
Mil is metric MOA is imperial. That is the coles notes of it
If you are really interested this is prob more info than you ever wanted:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/674900-Optics-Review-for-the-newer-Precision-Shooter
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/20/mil-vs-moa-an-objective-comparison/
Shawn
Mil is metric MOA is imperial. That is the coles notes of it
If you are really interested this is prob more info than you ever wanted:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/674900-Optics-Review-for-the-newer-Precision-Shooter
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2013/07/20/mil-vs-moa-an-objective-comparison/
Shawn
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Ok just to clear a few things up Milliradian is not metric. They are both an angular measurement. Mil is based off of the measure using a radians, take the radius of a circle then take the radius measurement and wrap it around the outside of a circle then connect the end back to the centre and the angle that is created is called a radian., there is roughly 6.36 radians in a full circle. Milli is a measurement of thousandths so yea it is really easy to relate it to the metric system but it works in imperial measure as well.....to save me writing a short book on here Google "understanding Milliradians" and you will find a YouTube video on it by the NSSF it is very descriptive but once you go out with someone that understands it and can teach you on the range with it you will find Mils are very user friendly and once you understand you to use a mil retical second shot engagements are super fast.
Now that I've gone metric, MOA seems foreign to me for scope adjustments. But group sizes is all MOA. I found MIL to be much easier to understand. Its milli meaning 1000th. So 1 mil at 1000 yards is 1/1000 1000yard*0.001 = 1 yard = 36" But its easer on meter ranges, 100=10cm and on just drop the first zero and add cm. Best part though, mil reticle mil turrets, your reticle gives you exact numbers to turn on your turrets.
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I am well aware of that. Ever heard of information overload?
The guy is brand new.
LOL
Shawn
As one poster noted, all that really matters is that your turret adjustments and reticle are in the same format. That being said i've never seen a mil dot scope with mil turrets (they may exist but i don't believe so). 1 mil is 3.6(.7?) moa, its a PITA to do conversions on the fly during a shoot. I always recommend MOA reticle/turret since we measure groupings in MOA mostly anyways and having them both the same allows you to make on the fly corrections by quickly counting the hashmarks on your reticle and either holding over accordingly or adjusting the turret. MILRAD ret/tur being the same but i'm an MOA man.
^^This
If you're only doing simplistic things (dialing an elevation or a simple hold over) it doesn't make a difference. But when you start compounding things (wind + lead, hold overs/unders from a dialed setting, urban prone offset + wind, etc...) and trying to do it on the fly under the clock, its easier with mils. You're dealing with smaller numbers, fewer digits and 1/10s vs. 1/4s. Formulas like the correction factor for the Improved Riflemans Rule for steeper inclines and longer distances is simpler with mils than with MOA.
Consider that the vast majority of top PRS shooter use mils and most of them learned on MOA. They aren't using mils because they learned on that or because they prefer metric (they're Americans). They SWITCHED because there IS an advantage when time is a factor, when you're doing more andvanced things than just dialing on wind and elevation.
This has been my exact experience. Once I learned the Mil system I find it strange when I pick up one of my rifles that has an MOA scope on it. Remember, MILs and MOAs are NOT a fixed unit of measure, i.e.: 1" or 1 foot, they are angular and as such as the distance to your target changes so does the size of one MIL or MOA. I like MILs because one MIL is 1/1000th of the distance from you to your target REGARDLESS of the unit of measure, it can be yards, metres, feet, inches, miles, kms, who cares it is always 1/1000th of the distance. Once you wrap your head around that you are away to the races.
To keep even simpler, get a FFP scope, then you can do all this hold over and shot correction stuff at any magnification level and not worry about a multiplication factor.
good evening
I have only one small corrective on MILs Milradian they are not metric they have been adopted but are not. Mils are an angular unit of messure
For the record, it is not a “Metric” scope or calibrated in meters, nor does it require conversion to yards. By definition a Radian is, “the angle subtended at the center of a circle by an arc that is equal in length to the radius of the circle.” So, a Milliradian is 1/1000 of a radian. When applied to a circle the number we use is 6283.2,
Now, because a milliradian is 1/1000 of a radian, it doesn’t matter what linear distance you use is, the reticle or adjustments subtends 1/1000 of that number. So you have a milliradian equaling:
1 mile at 1000 miles
1 meter at 1000 meters
1 yard at 1000 yards
10 centimeter at 100 meters
3.6 inches at 100 yards (3600 inches)
Most scopes adjust in .1 MRAD or 1/10th a Milliradian per click, so this allows the shooter to break up the space between each Mil Dot 10 times for an easy corresponding adjustment.
As this is the black rifle forum and your sport of choice might be precision or PRS commit to Mil scope. IF however this is your first scope go with MOA. your local club is 100yrds or 1moa vs. .277mil those grid targets (you get at the box stores) are moa squares. There are far more MOA scopes then MIL (cost consideration)
All the best
Trevor
I will add this, if you have a MOA scope with a turret that one full revolution is 10moa you should be fine. as long as you know your drops you could spin them to good affect. watched the Vegas 2016 video that Kombayotch posted and see. MOVERS are a different animal. I hope Kombayotch will provide more insight as he as shot PRS matches i have only shot precisions I uses an old Bauch and Lomb Tac 10 with MIL rectical and MOA turrets. it works for me but i don't advise you get one. stick with MIL/MIL or MOA /MOA
I have only one small corrective on MILs Milradian they are not metric they have been adopted but are not. Mils are an angular unit of messure
For the record, it is not a “Metric” scope or calibrated in meters, nor does it require conversion to yards. By definition a Radian is, “the angle subtended at the center of a circle by an arc that is equal in length to the radius of the circle.” So, a Milliradian is 1/1000 of a radian. When applied to a circle the number we use is 6283.2,
Now, because a milliradian is 1/1000 of a radian, it doesn’t matter what linear distance you use is, the reticle or adjustments subtends 1/1000 of that number. So you have a milliradian equaling:
1 mile at 1000 miles
1 meter at 1000 meters
1 yard at 1000 yards
10 centimeter at 100 meters
3.6 inches at 100 yards (3600 inches)
Most scopes adjust in .1 MRAD or 1/10th a Milliradian per click, so this allows the shooter to break up the space between each Mil Dot 10 times for an easy corresponding adjustment.
As this is the black rifle forum and your sport of choice might be precision or PRS commit to Mil scope. IF however this is your first scope go with MOA. your local club is 100yrds or 1moa vs. .277mil those grid targets (you get at the box stores) are moa squares. There are far more MOA scopes then MIL (cost consideration)
All the best
Trevor
I will add this, if you have a MOA scope with a turret that one full revolution is 10moa you should be fine. as long as you know your drops you could spin them to good affect. watched the Vegas 2016 video that Kombayotch posted and see. MOVERS are a different animal. I hope Kombayotch will provide more insight as he as shot PRS matches i have only shot precisions I uses an old Bauch and Lomb Tac 10 with MIL rectical and MOA turrets. it works for me but i don't advise you get one. stick with MIL/MIL or MOA /MOA
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Put it this way. If you're using your system to shoot farther distances at various targets, then get Mils. Less math and less turret turning to get you POI (point of impact) where you need it to go.
If you're shooting mostly off of a bench, maybe the occasional long range shooting with guys, then go MOA. For a new shooter this is always easier to understand and will benefit your experience rather than getting frustrated with Mils.
If I where you? Do your homework, understand your system and use Mils! Once people master MOA, they usually go over the Mils.
Cheers, Matt
If you're shooting mostly off of a bench, maybe the occasional long range shooting with guys, then go MOA. For a new shooter this is always easier to understand and will benefit your experience rather than getting frustrated with Mils.
If I where you? Do your homework, understand your system and use Mils! Once people master MOA, they usually go over the Mils.
Cheers, Matt
From what I'm reading, the move to Mils is pointless without involving metric measure to utilize the "speed" of the mil system, right?
The reason I have been so hesitant to make the move is due to that right there. I have grown up with the metric system but I still see, think and dream in inches. The problem is compounded because I make so many measurements everyday at work and at home with hobbies, in INCHES!! I can look at an item and know, almost instantly, it's dimensions in inches or feet.
Before I go out and buy a Mil/Mil scope I will buy a metric only tape measure and see if it doesn't drive me off the deep end...
The reason I have been so hesitant to make the move is due to that right there. I have grown up with the metric system but I still see, think and dream in inches. The problem is compounded because I make so many measurements everyday at work and at home with hobbies, in INCHES!! I can look at an item and know, almost instantly, it's dimensions in inches or feet.
Before I go out and buy a Mil/Mil scope I will buy a metric only tape measure and see if it doesn't drive me off the deep end...
Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
I offer both and use both so it just doesn't matter to me but here are a few points to consider.
Start with MOA.. Why? The scope industry is vastly larger wrt to MOA products. Far more shooters use MOA. ALL paper targets in competition that I am aware of are scaled in MOA. The Gun industry talks in MOA. Accuracy is discussed in MOA. And on it goes.. so start here and understand what MOA represents and how angular measurements work.
Once you are comfy with MOA, THEN consider what game you want to play and what units the people you shoot with use. Ideally, you want to communicate in the same units as those around you... otherwise, you better be quick on the math conversions. Not the end of the world and I am sure there is an APP for that.
Even in PRS events, you will hear shooters going back and forth between MRAD and MOA depending on the subject being discussed. You will hear many shooters in these vids talking about target size in MOA but come ups in MRAD...
So the ONLY appeal I see with MRAD is that your scope adjustments can be thought in a base 10 system (0.1MRAD click) as opposed to using fractions (1/8 or 1/4 min). But to be honest, I dont think in terms of number of clicks... way too slow. I need so much change... just dial the number and send it. If I need to go from 100 to 1000yds with my FTR rifle, I can either think 36MOA or 10 MRADs same thing... I will never work out the number of actual clicks... I just dial to that number and done.
And pretty much everyone has a good understanding of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 unit... it is not a mental stretch to think I need 25 1/2 MOA vs 25 1/4 MOA of scope adjustment and translate that to a fraction of scope adjustment between two unit numbers.
But if you are field shooting, the further you go, the more you will appreciate the finer MOA adjustments offered in many target scopes especially if dealing with small targets. Today, Sightron does make high mag target scopes with 0.05mrad clicks so this debate is getting closer to a wash. 0.1MRAD can get pretty coarse way out there... the bigger the target, the less important this becomes especially if the task is to simply hit the target somewhere.
If you are talking about object scaling, it becomes far easier to talk in MOA vs MRADs as now you are scaling using "base 10" with MOA per unit distance in yds. Real easy for shooter to understand 1 MOA is like 1" at 100yds, 10" at 1000yds. The MRAD is 3.6" at 100yds, 36" at 1000yds so a 10" object is what again?
Despite a metric system in Canada, many think of size in Inches vs CM's... and for those going south of the border, inches and yards are the language of choice.
So despite the push for MRAD in some sports, every LR shooter better have a solid understanding of MOA or better... angular measurement and scaling using the unit measure they choose.
Jerry
Start with MOA.. Why? The scope industry is vastly larger wrt to MOA products. Far more shooters use MOA. ALL paper targets in competition that I am aware of are scaled in MOA. The Gun industry talks in MOA. Accuracy is discussed in MOA. And on it goes.. so start here and understand what MOA represents and how angular measurements work.
Once you are comfy with MOA, THEN consider what game you want to play and what units the people you shoot with use. Ideally, you want to communicate in the same units as those around you... otherwise, you better be quick on the math conversions. Not the end of the world and I am sure there is an APP for that.
Even in PRS events, you will hear shooters going back and forth between MRAD and MOA depending on the subject being discussed. You will hear many shooters in these vids talking about target size in MOA but come ups in MRAD...
So the ONLY appeal I see with MRAD is that your scope adjustments can be thought in a base 10 system (0.1MRAD click) as opposed to using fractions (1/8 or 1/4 min). But to be honest, I dont think in terms of number of clicks... way too slow. I need so much change... just dial the number and send it. If I need to go from 100 to 1000yds with my FTR rifle, I can either think 36MOA or 10 MRADs same thing... I will never work out the number of actual clicks... I just dial to that number and done.
And pretty much everyone has a good understanding of 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 and 1 unit... it is not a mental stretch to think I need 25 1/2 MOA vs 25 1/4 MOA of scope adjustment and translate that to a fraction of scope adjustment between two unit numbers.
But if you are field shooting, the further you go, the more you will appreciate the finer MOA adjustments offered in many target scopes especially if dealing with small targets. Today, Sightron does make high mag target scopes with 0.05mrad clicks so this debate is getting closer to a wash. 0.1MRAD can get pretty coarse way out there... the bigger the target, the less important this becomes especially if the task is to simply hit the target somewhere.
If you are talking about object scaling, it becomes far easier to talk in MOA vs MRADs as now you are scaling using "base 10" with MOA per unit distance in yds. Real easy for shooter to understand 1 MOA is like 1" at 100yds, 10" at 1000yds. The MRAD is 3.6" at 100yds, 36" at 1000yds so a 10" object is what again?
Despite a metric system in Canada, many think of size in Inches vs CM's... and for those going south of the border, inches and yards are the language of choice.
So despite the push for MRAD in some sports, every LR shooter better have a solid understanding of MOA or better... angular measurement and scaling using the unit measure they choose.
Jerry
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There's lots of scopes with Mil dot reticle and mil turrets.
Mil vs moa, dialing the turrets for corrections. Being from across the pond, I could never get into working with 1/4 moa clicks. Mil is just easier to work with as 10 is a nice round number compared to 4. Now M1 Garand and M1A GI sights are 1 moa per click so that's easy (nice whole number to work with) I used to shoot them alot. But a scope in moa always foooks me up.
Mil.
1 click at 100 is 1cm
1 click at 200 is 2 cm
1 click at 300 is 3 cm
1 click at 400 is 4 cm
1 click at 500 is 5 cm
1 click at 600 is 6 cm
and so on.........
Your round impacts right 20cm at 500....you go 4 clicks left (0.4 mil). Simple.
Moa.
1 click at 100 is 1/4"
1 click at 200 is 1/2"
1 click at 300 is 3/4"
1 click at 400 is 1"
1 click at 500 is 1.25"
1 click at 600 is 1.5"
Your round impacts right 8" at 500....you go ? clicks left. Not as simple.
With Mil/Mil FFP, if the target is a steel plate or gets indicated after the shot, you can use the reticle to find the distance from round impact or the target marker to the bullseye/center. If I see I'm 0.5 mil out I can hold off by that amount (FFP) or click my windage knob. If its a non indicated paper target (can't see the hit), I am relying on my shooting partner (who hopefully saw the trace) to give me an approximate correction in cm (plain spotting scope) or Mil (his Mil riflescope) which I then correct for.
Mil.
1 click at 100 is 1cm
1 click at 200 is 2 cm
1 click at 300 is 3 cm
1 click at 400 is 4 cm
1 click at 500 is 5 cm
1 click at 600 is 6 cm
and so on.........
Your round impacts right 20cm at 500....you go 4 clicks left (0.4 mil). Simple.
Moa.
1 click at 100 is 1/4"
1 click at 200 is 1/2"
1 click at 300 is 3/4"
1 click at 400 is 1"
1 click at 500 is 1.25"
1 click at 600 is 1.5"
Your round impacts right 8" at 500....you go ? clicks left. Not as simple.
With Mil/Mil FFP, if the target is a steel plate or gets indicated after the shot, you can use the reticle to find the distance from round impact or the target marker to the bullseye/center. If I see I'm 0.5 mil out I can hold off by that amount (FFP) or click my windage knob. If its a non indicated paper target (can't see the hit), I am relying on my shooting partner (who hopefully saw the trace) to give me an approximate correction in cm (plain spotting scope) or Mil (his Mil riflescope) which I then correct for.
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And that is the problem. Canadian math/science is a joke. Simple trigonometry is beyond most Canadians; joke that we are suppose to be a developed nation, G7... country. Calculus is a foreign language to most of us but Europeans learn it by grade 10. No need to talk about Asian and math.
Nope. I work in inches, yards and MPH. Still faster in mils.
At a PRS match, you will see 1 or 2 MOA scopes out of 100 shooters, the rest are using mils. And these are Americans who think in inches and hate the metric system.
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Mystic Precision
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Summerland, BC
You can create any situation to make either system "look" easier to use.
500 m or yds?
What if it is 450yds and a foot off target? now you are back to some math regardless of the system used.
There is no unit that is devoid of calculations... All shooters have to be prepared to do the math or at least a SWAG to get the shot on target.
But better, learn to shoot with enough control to see the impact. Then use the reticle as a ruler to let you "do the math" and just hold off for the follow up shot (assuming condition is the same).
Again, no advantage to which unit you use. If shooting on the clock and I see a miss 2 lines to the left, I couldn't care less what that works out to in MOA, MRAD, inches or CM... I hold 2 lines to the right and send it. Why would you bother to dial the knob?
What would it matter what the actual subtension really was? Unless you had to convey that information to someone else and when would you need to do that in an sport shot for individual score?
So this then tickles on the subject of FFP vs SFP scopes. Except of elevation, does anyone go into a stage and add windage into their scope before they start and then dial more or less as they progress through the various tasks?
Or do you just do a basic guess, then holdover to get the rest of the shots on target?
I am sure the answer is all the above but I just don't see wanting to dial a scope which could create a user input error when all I have to do is aim the reticle off target... and that I am not likely to screw up.
Jerry
I don't wish to discourage you... you are making it too complicated.
Mils are simply a unit of measure just like MOA.
Example
To go from 100yards to 400yards how many inch drop (308 220gn 3000FPS, G1 .500) you get 24.6inch which is 5.9moa or 1.7mil (24.6/4)/1.047moa or divide by 3.6" mil
And for your purposes you don't have to do any math. there are dozens of ballistic solvers available for smart phones or you can find them on the internet for FREE. I use JBMballistics exclusively.
You have to make sure the data you provide the ballistic solver is accurate and it will spit out the MIL or MOA you need for the distances you want to shoot. which solver should you chose... unknown there are 3 that get top billing FFP, Coldbore, and Applied ballistics.
The important thing once you get baseline numbers is to ACTUALLY shoot the distance and then adjust your numbers or input the corrected value in your solver to get the proper come up for all distances.
no math on your part just input data. if you understand the math even better
all the best
Trevor
