Mixed .303s and 30-06's on aircraft? Pictures inside!

TheIndifferent1

TheIndifferent1

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Hello all,

I'm posting this as by request or a good historian friend of mine - we're hoping to tap into the vast knowledge base of CGN to solve a mystery :D

He's doing some research on Curtiss Tomahawks, and sent me the following:

I attached three photos, one of which you have already, of Curtiss Tomahawks of 414 Squadron, RCAF in the UK in early 1942. The story is essentially as follows: The first RAF Tomahawks were ex-French contract (140 aircraft) taken over by the RAF and had in the wings four .303s, two in each wing. These were Tomahawk I’s. Following this were aircraft from British contracts, known as Tomahawk II’s – the first 110 being IIA’s with .303’s and the remainder IIB’s with .30 Brownings. However, photos, as those attached, show some with apparently a mixed armament - .303’s inboard and .30’s outboard. This is contrary to all that has been written (which means little) and to common sense (which does mean something).
Click to expand...

As you can see from the pictures below, the two barrels are different - one has a star-shaped device at the end (gas booster?)) the other is plain. In one of the pictures, both .303 and 30-06 ammunition is clearly visible sitting on the wing.

Does anyone know (or have any guesses) as to why planes from this squadron would have mixed calibre guns? Wild theories are also appreciated! :)

7-3c.jpg


7-9c.jpg


7-10c.jpg
 
Could be salvaged guns from wrecked or not repairable aircraft fitted as a mix-and-match, although I can't understand why the squadron mechanics and armorers would do that unless they were desperate.
 
How about this? Equipment and maybe ammo was in short supply so had to use what was available. So for balance install one of each in each wing so at least 2 guns would be available in any case rather than some aircraft with and some without.
Purely from my imagination. No basis in fact.
 
When 133 FS RCAF was stationed at Boundary Bay, BC, things were still desperate enough that even the Instrument Mechanics and Technicians pulled coast-watch duty.

Their instructions were very simple: "If the Japs land, fire your 5 rounds and run like hell!"

The Rifles were from the previous war, but the ammo was so tight that a man coming off coast-watch had to turn over his ONE CHARGER of ammo to his replacement. Men who were not on coast watch had ZERO ammunition. And that was in Canada.

Another point to think on is the cone of fire. Our .303 generally was held to a bullet as close as possible to 174 grains, at least for Ball ammo, but the US had TWO different weights of bullets: 150 grains or thereabouts in the M1906 and the M2 Ball loadings, and 173 in the M1 load. The 150 started off faster than a .303 but slowed down faster, while the M1 Ball (if they had any) would have functioned more or less like a .303 with slightly extended range. That certainly LOOKS LIKE Ball '06 in those belts: US AP, API, Tracer and so forth were tip-marked quite prominently, although the tip mark on Tracer would tend to wash out on the Panchromatic film they were using. Too bad we can't see the headstamps on the .303; all I can tell from the photo is that it isn't Buckingham IV in the belts: very distinctive 'stepped' bullet shape and rather neat stuff: APTI.

I think it would have been a combination of "make-do, Tommy" and trying to extend the cone of fire, using what equipment and ammunition was actually IN stores, rather than what Establishment figures said SHOULD BE there.

Anybody know any WW2 RAF or RCAF Armourers?

Maybe somebody should pop over to Milsurps and ask Captain Laidler; he might have an idea. Frankly, I'm guessing, trying to make sense from what I know for myself and some things my Dad said.

Hope this helps.
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My uncle served as an air engine mechanic (fitter) with RCAF 135(F) Squadron stationed in Terrace BC during the latter part of the war. Squadron was equipped with P 40 Kittyhawks. He often mentioned his issued 3006 Enfield rifle (P17). 135(F) also flew Hurricanes for a period of time. I'm sure he also mentioned both Mosquitos and Bolingbrooks flying from the same station at one time or another. Mossies were probably with 133 Squadron. Like many of our WWII vets Uncle Gordon passed away a few years ago. He was extremely proud of his RCAF service.
 
Thinking more on this.

The British didn't use the P-40 because it was the Fighter of Choice: they used it because it was what they could GET.

Rolls-Royce could only turn out Merlins so fast, especially after the Cornercraft plant was turned into smoking ruins. In the end, Merlin production was partly Dispersed for safety reasons, even though it was somewhat less efficient.

A Spitfire took 33,000 man-hours to build. There never existed a set of stamping dies for the all-metal stressed-skin fuselage and wings of the airplane. ALL that delicate metal-bending was done by hand, using little hammers and big sheets of metal.... and there was hardly a straight line in the whole machine. Each and every Spit was an individual work of art and works of art take a long time to make.

The Hurricane was faster to build but even it required materials which were in very short supply. Britain had no native source for Bauxite and Jerry was sitting on the French supply (at Baux, of course) which meant that most of their supply had to come from HERE. Thank Gawd for Kitimat!

Jerry, on the other hand, was flitting about the sky in 109s and 190s. The 109 was a very agile bird (so long as you didn't wipe it out on takeoff or landing) and could fly circles around a Tomahawk. The 190 was a good low-level aircraft but turned into a pig much above 15,000.

As well, the Tomahawk carried only 4 wing-mounted MGs to the Hurricane's 8 and the Spit's 8.... and this was modded to 12 in later production: the Canadian-built Huricane II mounted a dozen Brownings.

Considering all of this, I would think that ANY effort toward making the Tomahawk's armament more efficient in a fight, or of extending the range of this somewhat-limited array of guns, would be regarded as worth the effort on the part of Supply.

Just my take on things.
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133 was using Hurricane IIs. They were stationed up at Tofino for some time before 135 was posted there, so there was a massive construction project to build more hangars and more shops. In the end, they had the single runway set, with 133 on one side and 135 on the other.

Hurris were the bird of choice at Tofino for some time, 133 and 135 both having them there.

I wonder...... did your uncle ever say anything about the day the 133 Sqn Armourer put about 150 rounds into the top of the 135 main hangar? My Dad was standing beside the aircraft at the time, still inside the propeller arc, just having checked the tach drive, said it was very loud!

lol!
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re: good stuff

smellie said:
When 133 FS RCAF was stationed at Boundary Bay, BC, things were still desperate enough that even the Instrument Mechanics and Technicians pulled coast-watch duty.

Their instructions were very simple: "If the Japs land, fire your 5 rounds and run like hell!"

The Rifles were from the previous war, but the ammo was so tight that a man coming off coast-watch had to turn over his ONE CHARGER of ammo to his replacement. Men who were not on coast watch had ZERO ammunition. And that was in Canada.

Another point to think on is the cone of fire. Our .303 generally was held to a bullet as close as possible to 174 grains, at least for Ball ammo, but the US had TWO different weights of bullets: 150 grains or thereabouts in the M1906 and the M2 Ball loadings, and 173 in the M1 load. The 150 started off faster than a .303 but slowed down faster, while the M1 Ball (if they had any) would have functioned more or less like a .303 with slightly extended range. That certainly LOOKS LIKE Ball '06 in those belts: US AP, API, Tracer and so forth were tip-marked quite prominently, although the tip mark on Tracer would tend to wash out on the Panchromatic film they were using. Too bad we can't see the headstamps on the .303; all I can tell from the photo is that it isn't Buckingham IV in the belts: very distinctive 'stepped' bullet shape and rather neat stuff: APTI.

I think it would have been a combination of "make-do, Tommy" and trying to extend the cone of fire, using what equipment and ammunition was actually IN stores, rather than what Establishment figures said SHOULD BE there.

Anybody know any WW2 RAF or RCAF Armourers?

Maybe somebody should pop over to Milsurps and ask Captain Laidler; he might have an idea. Frankly, I'm guessing, trying to make sense from what I know for myself and some things my Dad said.

Hope this helps.
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Click to expand...

I always enjoy your posts Smellie,...always a good read..keep up the good work
 
"Thank Gawd for Kitimat!"

Smellie, I sure hate to contradict you. But the Kitimat smelter didn't come into existance until about 1950, or just past that date.
I presume the aluminum came from Quebec.
 
Wow, thanks for all the replies guys!

We had thought that it could have been a shortage of supply of one type of another, as several of you suggested. You may be right, howasan, that this was done so that in the event that they ran out of one calibre or the other, each plane would still be able to shoot at least two guns. I'll have to think more on that.

You guys rock :D
 
Maybe the bauxite came form Jamaica?

The 303 and 3006 guns are bascally the same. It makes sense that both would bolt in. The a/c came with a set of 4. In service, if the same caliber was not available for replacement, it makes sense they would bolt in something else that would fit.
 
All of the possibilities make sense, and they are all most definitely plausible.

I'm tending to lean more towards Smellie's "increasing effectiveness" but that may have been an unintended pleasant surprise of the "take whatever we have and get in the the air" thought process.
 
Reminded me of a story about a Home guard officer. When asked what he would do if the germans landed, his reply was "I would tell the men
"don't fire until you see the whites of their eyes"
When asked why, he replied,
"I have three enfields with five rounds each and one lewis gun with a broken return spring"
 
If it has the .303 machine guns it may be a ground attack variant. They usually had larger weapon pods mounted under the wings as well.

The .303 was often outfitted with tracer rounds and used for strafing trains/convoys etc. The tracers allowed them to see where the rounds would roughly go before opening up with the bigger firepower such as 20mm cannons, or rockets.

The German Meschersmitt BF109G fighter used this approach as well. It had a 20mm cannon in the front nose. The pilot would shoot with the smaller caliber machine guns, to make sure he had the right lead on another plane for any deflective shooting. When they were scoring hits they would open up with the 20mm cannon. They didn't have much ammo for the 20mm and they fired slower so shots were made more sparingly.

My Grandfather flew in the RAF during WWII. He flew the Spitfire, the hurricane and even the mustang. They would mix and match weapon types for the purpose. For example while he was in Africa the primary role was ground attack against troop/transport trains and convoys. The planes they flew were modified with two very small bombs on the wingtips. They would use these to fly ahead and bomb the train tunnel entrances so the troop trains couldn't hide. Weird weapon configurations could have been a combination of use and what was available. I seem to recall that my Grandfather said he was flying American Mustangs while in Africa? I'm not positive but I do recall him saying this. If I'm right on this it would show they mix/matched what they had to get the job done.
 
Ganderite said:
Maybe the bauxite came form Jamaica?

The 303 and 3006 guns are bascally the same. It makes sense that both would bolt in. The a/c came with a set of 4. In service, if the same caliber was not available for replacement, it makes sense they would bolt in something else that would fit.
Click to expand...

Kitimat was just a smelter, built there because of the power they generated when they dammed the Nechako River and at a deep sea port. All the bauxite was shipped in.
 
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