Modern Sporter - Build Discussions

[koesdibyo]

It's not a luxury, it's a requirement to do a job properly. Can you install a barrel nut without a torque wrench? Yes. Can you install one properly? No.

Are we talking torque wrench or action rod/Bev block?

Either way, they answer to both is they can both be NOT used and a rifle can be still assembled PROPERLY.

Is it ideal? Absolutely not.

If we’re on the topic of torque wrenches, think how many applications a torque wrench is called for in DAILY things, but don’t get used, and life goes on.
- vehicles: tires... I’d hazard a guess and say a majority of wheels on cars haven’t gone through the ‘proper’ procedure of torquing, and even less that have gone for that second torque re-check after driving.
- back to guns: scopes... be it rings or mounts. Important parts to a rifle, yet many don’t torque to specs, but simply ‘go by feel’

So semantics says you’re wrong. I’m not arguing against proper tools, I’m just saying adapt and overcome is a wonderful thing, and past and present circumstances proves you don’t NEED the tools to get the job done.

 

[koesdibyo]

Grease - tighten - loosen?? Been professionally pulling wrenches for 15 years in dealerships.... this is a new one to me. Lubrication doesn’t affect torque, but it does affect clamping force. Torque values are there for a reason, and accuracy will be affected with improper values.
You’re building at minimum a 2000$ rifle, spend 40$ on the only tool you really need to build it properly. We aren’t assembling these in a cave where our lives depend on it

Most people installing barrel nuts are generally familiar with the method, so I assume you’re playing dumb to make the point.

Grease the threads, put on the nut, begin torquing (aiming for between 30-80ft/lbs). If you’re unable to achieve that on the first pull, loosen the nut, retorque again. Repeat as necessary until you’re within the range AND the nut and receiver has holes align.

It’s not rocket surgery, nor as complex as you want it to be.
Without the action rod or Bev block, it is far more complex... but 100% achieveable. Whether that be a hack vice created, hell I’ve even heard of it being done without a vice of some sort (T-shirt, stand on the upper, tap the wrench with a hammer to get to the next barrel but hole for the gas tube)

If it was as dire as you make it out to be, a 50ft-lb difference wouldn’t exist between the values.
I can’t say I’m familiar with anyone that uses the barrel nut torquing for their accuracy development. It’s not standard procedure to try different barrel torques to check grouping sizes.

 

[Sqr]

Most people installing barrel nuts are generally familiar with the method, so I assume you’re playing dumb to make the point.

Grease the threads, put on the nut, begin torquing (aiming for between 30-80ft/lbs). If you’re unable to achieve that on the first pull, loosen the nut, retorque again. Repeat as necessary until you’re within the range AND the nut and receiver has holes align.

It’s not rocket surgery, nor as complex as you want it to be.
Without the action rod or Bev block, it is far more complex... but 100% achieveable. Whether that be a hack vice created, hell I’ve even heard of it being done without a vice of some sort (T-shirt, stand on the upper, tap the wrench with a hammer to get to the next barrel but hole for the gas tube)

If it was as dire as you make it out to be, a 50ft-lb difference wouldn’t exist between the values.
I can’t say I’m familiar with anyone that uses the barrel nut torquing for their accuracy development. It’s not standard procedure to try different barrel torques to check grouping sizes.

It’s quite obvious many have different philosophies when assembling AR type rifles. Grease no grease, torque no torque, engine oil, tranny oil etc etc. Assembling firearms and vehicles are very different and most need to understand that. First time builders must view some of the professional builders on YouTube or the Brownells and Midway offerings before attempting theirs because sure as Hell the receiver manufacturer will be criticized for a poor result.

As you have said it’s not rocket science but it requires attention to detail. Use mil grease, torque loosen then retorgue ( Max 80 lbs) to align the gas tube holes. Some will lap the receiver but not required. Yes in Canada it’s not used for life but who wants a poorly assembled black rifle blowing up in your face.

Your post was ver informative.

 

[purplezuk]

The argument is lost on people who think " good enough " is the same as "done properly".

When you tighten/loosen, repeat, what you are trying to accomplish is lapping all the components together. While this will eventually work, there are much more efficient ways of doing it, but involve proper tools or additional parts. Again, anything can be done in a pinch, but why would anyone suggest doing that when you have better options and the time to do it right?
If you damage your upper, it's going to cost you far more money than the correct tool to replace it

 

[DILLIGAF]

Anyone around Wainwright that needs proper tools to build their rifle shoot me a PM and i'll hook you up.

 

[koesdibyo]

The argument is lost on people who think " good enough " is the same as "done properly".

When you tighten/loosen, repeat, what you are trying to accomplish is lapping all the components together. While this will eventually work, there are much more efficient ways of doing it, but involve proper tools or additional parts. Again, anything can be done in a pinch, but why would anyone suggest doing that when you have better options and the time to do it right?
If you damage your upper, it's going to cost you far more money than the correct tool to replace it

Done properly is a relative term. As mentioned earlier in this thread. The reaction rod also causes issues and can be argued an incorrect/improper way to do about an install.

If the results come out identical, why is one done ‘improperly’?

If done ‘improperly’ using a vice, block, wrench, and all the tools at your disposal, the end result is the same. It’s the user, their skill and knowledge (and patience) that will result in a successful build.

Again, not advocating against the right tools for the job, just your description that anyone that doesn’t do it your way is wrong.
This came about because you called out people that have come up with alternative routes and stated they ‘clearly have no concept of what 50 ft-lbs is’.

It can be done ‘by hand’ with a wrench and man power. It has been done. I’d wager you wouldn’t tell the difference between the 2 rifles if set side by side and both were done ‘properly’. My definition of proper is completed to the correct torque, and time was taken to ensure no additional damage occurred.

I have all the tools, and use all the tools in my build... because I can. They are time saving, and dumb it down. But if my tools magically disappeared, I could make do - and am comfortable enough in my skills they would both be done correctly.

 

[HotSoup]

The argument is lost on people who think " good enough " is the same as "done properly".

When you tighten/loosen, repeat, what you are trying to accomplish is lapping all the components together. While this will eventually work, there are much more efficient ways of doing it, but involve proper tools or additional parts. Again, anything can be done in a pinch, but why would anyone suggest doing that when you have better options and the time to do it right?
If you damage your upper, it's going to cost you far more money than the correct tool to replace it

Youre making a huge nothingburger out of tightening a barrel nut. Its a ####ing nut. Your grease the threads, and tighten it. I did it with my SLR and it doesnt come loose. It doesnt affect the MOA accuracy. What risk do I run of damaging my upper? Id argue the risk of overtightening and breaking something is greater when its clamped to a vise and the forces exerted run the risk of being too great.

 

[purplezuk]

So I won't argue this concept when using basic milspec barrel nuts, but what do you do when you are running something that doesn't require indexing? Do you simply guess with aluminum and titanium barrel nuts?
I rarely used standard parts on any of my builds, so itinerary a torque wrench is a no brainier.

 

[HotSoup]

So I won't argue this concept when using basic milspec barrel nuts, but what do you do when you are running something that doesn't require indexing? Do you simply guess with aluminum and titanium barrel nuts?
I rarely used standard parts on any of my builds, so itinerary a torque wrench is a no brainier.

You tighten it til its tight and then you put on the handguard.

The end/

 

[no-one special]

Good demonstration of how to install a barrel by an actual barrel manufacturer.
https://youtu.be/DC4CCwk6fEw

So putting ALL the torque onto the upper is a good thing?
Thanks but I don't think so.

 

[Sqr]

To answer the BEV block question:

Isn’t a BEV block for AR15’s? I guess that’s why it will not work on the MS because it’s not an AR15. Simple, no?

 

[no-one special]

After some thought, maybe you’re right.
I deleted the post.
I just figured ,as they don’t sell 6mm, they wouldn’t give a ####.

As I recall the guys said YES to a 6mm Grendel option when it was asked.

 

[greg olmstead]

I think they said 6.5 Grendel.
They can get the 6MM AR barrel but maybe not the dies and BCG.

6mmAR is a different cat and hard to source everything at one place.for a reasonable cost.

Bcg is the same as 6.5 grendel

 

[tbough]

Isn’t a BEV block for AR15’s? I guess that’s why it will not work on the MS because it’s not an AR15. Simple, no?

So for those that have a Bev Block and don't want to buy another tool just drive out the pin in the center of the Bev Block, move the central metal part upwards in the housing until you can engage both the barrel extension and the hole for the front pivot pin. I know this works for my MV and I assume the MS is similar.

 

[quikcolin]

Quick question. I’m looking at all the different BCG’s available and I’m a little overwhelmed. I’m going to build a .223, looking to put together a quality rifle. Not saying I’m looking to pour money into this MS unnecessarily, but at the same I don’t plan to cheap out either. Could you guys offer some recommendations on BCG’s? I’ve looked at Aero Precision...? But which one? Or another brand?Does the “bolt” come with these when purchased? Or is that something needed to be purchased separately? Everyone seems to be gung-ho on the JP Enterprises 6.5 grendel bolt.

Currently I’m planning Mapleridge Armoury for much of the build. Stainless 18.6 barrel, plus many of their other parts.

No clue on trigger?

Thanks guys.

 

[koesdibyo]

Quick question. I’m looking at all the different BCG’s available and I’m a little overwhelmed. I’m going to build a .223, looking to put together a quality rifle. Not saying I’m looking to pour money into this MS unnecessarily, but at the same I don’t plan to cheap out either. Could you guys offer some recommendations on BCG’s? I’ve looked at Aero Precision...? But which one? Or another brand?Does the “bolt” come with these when purchased? Or is that something needed to be purchased separately? Everyone seems to be gung-ho on the JP Enterprises 6.5 grendel bolt.

Currently I’m planning Mapleridge Armoury for much of the build. Stainless 18.6 barrel, plus many of their other parts.

No clue on trigger?

Thanks guys.

JP bolt is because of the reliability/durability with the design. It’s proven itself not prone to breaking, like many of the predecessors in the type 1 and type 2 (and 7.62 bolts). This is due to the size of cartridges means removal of material on the bolt to accommodate... which made them prone to breaking.

Since you’re going 223, there aren’t many bolts these days that won’t be good. The bcg itself is essentially one in the same, as most companies are using the same steel to make it, so essentially paying for a name. But if you want weight reduction, this is the place to look at cutting some of that mass.

Brownells bcg/bolts are hard to beat for the price.

Triggers are subjective to what you prefer. Timney, Geisselle, triggertech, etc... or lower costs would be 2 stage in a brand like Armalite or the likes. If you can, get your hands (or finger) on some firearms with a curve, flat, different pull weights, etc to find what you like.

 

[purplezuk]

The Brownells bolt Carriers are very affordable, and have lifetime warranty.
If you want to keep it basic and reliable, simply get a full mass ( standard ) bolt carrier in any coating you desire, and simply pair it with a standard gas block.
There are no weight savings here, but you also don't get the headaches that can accompany lighter parts.
As far as triggers, it's all preference.. and how much you can spend.

For anyone on Facebook, there is a modern Sporter build page. Some very helpful people on there, and easy to share pictures/ ideas

 

[cwpowell]

I have a brownells light weight. I’m happy with it so far. It’s nicely built.

If you can I’d try to find one in either Black Nitride, Nickel Boron, or Titanium Nitride. They have a nice slick coating that makes cleaning very easy!

 

[quikcolin]

Thank you so much, guys! These Brownells, are they something that you’re purchasing online in the USA and importing into Canada? Is there a lot of red tape associated with that process?

Regarding the Black Nitride, Nicole Boron and TiNi... I read somewhere that the extra coating on the bolt carrier can cause fitment issues? Any truth to that?

Keep those trigger recommendations coming

 

[cwpowell]

Thank you so much, guys! These Brownells, are they something that you’re purchasing online in the USA and importing into Canada? Is there a lot of red tape associated with that process?

Regarding the Black Nitride, Nicole Boron and TiNi... I read somewhere that the extra coating on the bolt carrier can cause fitment issues? Any truth to that?


Keep those trigger recommendations coming

The coatings are microns thick. Like anodizing. Never heard of an issue like that.