Modern SXS choices

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TheCarpenter

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Hey folks, looking around for a modern SXS manufacturer. I see Cheap stoegers and want to spend more money than that. I would like a "nice" SXS. something light, quick handling, good pointing etc. Pretty is nice and all, i would like to be proud of it, but I know It's going to get banged up in the brush.

I'm not looking for a super fancy 5-20K firearm, I think that's a little rediculous for my lifestyle. I would expect to pay 1000 to maybe 1500$ for a lifetime keeper gun, but maybe that's not realistic?

20 gauge is my favorite gauge, but I enjoy 12, 16, 20, and soon to be .410

It's mostly going to be used for upland bird. Pheasant, maybe ruffed grouse. might get used on a rabbit or something here and there. I was hoping for 16 gauge as I don't have much in 16, and heard it "hit's like a 12, kicks like a 20".

You experienced claybusters and bird blasters have any opinions or advice to share? or anyone know of good modern manufacturers of SXS? If i HAVE to..i'll look at O/U but really love SXS.

Thanks in advance.

Carpenter
 
As far as newer goes, the higher end Italians like the Fausti, FAIR, RFM, and Berrata SxS guns are all very nice and there are some very high end semi custom built Italian makers as well. The Spanish Grulla ans Aya guns and others are also nice but fr more than your budget.
It is not really what is best when you get up in price like those, but what you want.
The English are still building some nice SxS guns as well, but if it were me, I would be looking at a vintage gun, and likely an English made one .
You can pick up a fairly vintage nice gun for $1,500 from several sponsors here.
I have two Westley Richards guns, a hammer double and a newer made nitro proofed box lock.
Both were under $1,500, although I have owned the hammer gun for many years. The 1899 Box lock is nitro proofed and was bought from Denis at Intersurplus a few years back
Cat
 
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At $1000 to $1500, your choices are very limited, you are either looking at new Turkish made guns, or older shotguns of a little higher quality. I have owned Huglu in your price range, and they funcrion well, but they aren't light and balanced like my AYA and Grulla shotguns.
 
Welcome, TheCarpenter, to the enjoyment of side-by-sides.

I agree with Iron Cat and Sillymike; you might wish to consider a used double instead of a new one, and used British guns can still offer a lifetime of worry-free use. I've been shooting old British guns for more than 45 years now, guns that have been shot for generations, and I have yet to have anything break on me (though, of course, it can happen). I routinely hunt grouse with a 161-year-old British double; I doubt the warranty still applies :), but I don't expect it to break down before I do.

For the type of upland shooting that you want to do, you might want to try low-recoil 12-gauge 2 1/2" shells. The birds are just as dead, and it makes for pleasant shooting. A bit of a pain to score ammunition, but a flat will last for many years of hunting. For regular clay-bird shooting, standard 2 3/4" makes for easily-sourced ammunition, but I would still recommend the softest-shooting loads available, like 1oz or 7/8oz. No clay bird can outrun the mildest loads, despite what advertisers tell you. I'm also a huge fan of the 16, especially as it makes for a beautifully proportioned gun, and there are used ones out there. Find one if you can.

Last year, for fun and out of curiosity (I had just advised family to not overspend on a double, and felt I needed to put my money where my mouth was), I bought from Intersurplus the cheapest, plainest boxlock double that I could find, which had the features I considered essential. It had to have been built before everything got cheapened, so anywhere up to the 1950s. I could then expect it to be balanced and constructed with high-quality materials, and finished to a high standard. It had to be as unmolested as possible. I sought a British-made double, but I ended up getting a Belgian-made no-name one from the 1950s, which had undergone British proofs. It handles and performs very well (I'm picky) and is ideally suited for upland shooting and occasional clay-bird fun. The best part? It was $375. And it will outlive me. So I'm also a big fan of Intersurplus, where good working guns can be found.

WBwx11B.jpg
 
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Like Pinfire, I'm a big fan of some of the offerings of Intersurplus when I'm trying to get a reasonably priced gun. I just don't think they have to be English. But Intersurplus isn't the only game in town. You just have to keep your eyes open and not be in a hurry. Great guns show up. Also, I can't speak for English, but as a rule, I avoid post WWII Continental guns as the post war infrastructure was just too damaged.

A couple years ago I went on a bit of a binge.......bought 4 Continental made 16 ga SxS and one American 20 gauge, an AH Fox. Had a couple of the stocks refinished and any excess oil removed from the wood so I know the stocks are solid. Barrels reblued. New pads if the old one was beat. All but one are 29" to 30" barrels......the one is 28". All were in great mechanical condition with solid barrels and tight actions. Just gave them a bit of a cosmetic makeover so the finishes are ready for the next 80 years. All make fantastic plains birds guns.....pheasant, sharptail and huns. In total I don't have over $1500 in any of them and most are around $1000. And I'd happily put them up against any new gun up to about $4-5K Canadian.

The only thing they don't have is removable chokes. Meh. Hunting guns don't need removable chokes.

As an aside, I hunt upland over setters. There is no other gun to use except a SxS!
 
Years ago (20+) I hunted a lot with 3 friends. Mostly grouse and woodcock over dogs. Each of us had 20 ga Ithaca/SKB's SxS. All of us loved them. Mine had 28 in barrels and chocked M&F. The other 3 were 25 in ImpC/Mod.. Mod 100's if I remember correctly. They occasionally still come up for sale. A couple years ago Switzers Auction sold one. No idea of value now. Paid $500 for mine in mid '90's.
 
This little back actioned 16x16/ 9.3x72R drilling has worked very well super with lighter hand loads on every upland bird I have ever hunted with it from ruffies to pheasants as well as Sharptails!.
It was under $1,000.
Cat
 

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If you are just gonna shoot lead, there are lots of decent older gun choices.

If ya wanna new gun that shoots steel, look at a Churchill, Weatherby Orion or CZ Bobwhite. 3" chambers and choke tubes. Fairly light and decent looking.
 
TheCarpenter said:
Hey folks, looking around for a modern SXS manufacturer. I see Cheap stoegers and want to spend more money than that. I would like a "nice" SXS. something light, quick handling, good pointing etc. Pretty is nice and all, i would like to be proud of it, but I know It's going to get banged up in the brush.

I'm not looking for a super fancy 5-20K firearm, I think that's a little rediculous for my lifestyle. I would expect to pay 1000 to maybe 1500$ for a lifetime keeper gun, but maybe that's not realistic?

20 gauge is my favorite gauge, but I enjoy 12, 16, 20, and soon to be .410

It's mostly going to be used for upland bird. Pheasant, maybe ruffed grouse. might get used on a rabbit or something here and there. I was hoping for 16 gauge as I don't have much in 16, and heard it "hit's like a 12, kicks like a 20".

You experienced claybusters and bird blasters have any opinions or advice to share? or anyone know of good modern manufacturers of SXS? If i HAVE to..i'll look at O/U but really love SXS.

Thanks in advance.

Carpenter
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Fausti....
 
sillymike said:
The Husqvarna 3xx and 6xx shotguns would probably fall in the more modern category...
- most of them have 2.75" chambers and seems to weigh in the 7lbs range. Not exactly a light gun, but similar to the Weatherby Orion/CZ Bobwhite... And can be had for little $
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When we are talking "modern" we often mean that it has modern dimensions and can handle modern powders and loads. And modern powders and loads kinda got started about 1925 with the introduction of Super X from Winchester. Most gunmakers very quickly got on board with barrels well able to withstand the forces generated by modern nitro powders. So I kinda take 1925 as the dividing line.

The most common problem that arises from shooting modern powders and (specifically) loads is that over time the wood has shrunk away from the metal and become oil soaked. The oil weakens the wood, the gaps of contact mean less wood manages the forces of recoil and eventually something gives. Usually resulting in a cracked or broken stock.

The American makers were relatively quick to adopt the 2 3/4" shell as standard but the Europeans and Brits took much longer.

The Husky 310 series ran roughly from 1910 to 1940. The 610 series replaced it. They are easy enough to find so I stick with the 310 guns. Better made and better handling. I had a 16 from the late 1930s that I sold to a good friend and currently have a 16 from the mid 1920s. The 20s are rare as hens teeth but I think the 16s give the Fox 16s a run for their money at 1/4 the cost. Actions sourced from Sauer, fantastic Swedish steel barrels and if you are curious it's possible to find out the names of the specific craftsmen who made your gun.

As far as weight for an upland gun goes, it's my experience that good upland 12s generally range between 6 1/2 and 7 pounds with 28" to 30" barrels. The 12's I use run between 6 lbs 9 oz and 6 lbs 11 oz. Good longer barreled 16s tend to run between 6 and 6 1/2 with longer barrels of 28" to 30". The 16s I have really liked tend to be quite close to 6 1/4 pounds. And I find longer barreled 20s typically are between 5 3/4 and 6 1/4 pounds. These weight ranges soak up relatively little of the recoil, typically making the guns less than ideal for clays games or waterfowl.
 
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Out of respect to my grandfather I still take out a Belgium made SxS he bought me when I was a teenager back in the 60’s. Added to the stable a Win Mod 23 in 20g and several Browning BSS in 20g since.
The Japanese Brownings are extremely well made and I’ve seen them come up on CGN occasionally for $1,600-$2,000.
 
TheCarpenter said:
Hey folks, looking around for a modern SXS manufacturer. I see Cheap stoegers and want to spend more money than that. I would like a "nice" SXS. something light, quick handling, good pointing etc. Pretty is nice and all, i would like to be proud of it, but I know It's going to get banged up in the brush.

I'm not looking for a super fancy 5-20K firearm, I think that's a little rediculous for my lifestyle. I would expect to pay 1000 to maybe 1500$ for a lifetime keeper gun, but maybe that's not realistic?

20 gauge is my favorite gauge, but I enjoy 12, 16, 20, and soon to be .410

It's mostly going to be used for upland bird. Pheasant, maybe ruffed grouse. might get used on a rabbit or something here and there. I was hoping for 16 gauge as I don't have much in 16, and heard it "hit's like a 12, kicks like a 20".

You experienced claybusters and bird blasters have any opinions or advice to share? or anyone know of good modern manufacturers of SXS? If i HAVE to..i'll look at O/U but really love SXS.

Thanks in advance.

Carpenter
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You can still get a very nice 16 gauge Huglu sxs from Prophet River. however once these are gone you wll be SOL, since Prophet River is no longer importing Huglu shotguns for some unkown reason. I have had a number of them over the years, since CZ shotguns are actually made by Huglu and currently have a Huglu 200AC 12 gauge which is the nicest shotgun I have ever owned.
 
If you do decide to go with an older SXS I would recommend doing some research on proof marks and chamber lengths. Vintage gun journal has some great articles. Sourcing 2 1/2” shells can be difficult at times, I’ve been hunting with gamebore 1 oz loads they have been very effective.

Since pictures are always appreciated here’s an 1896 sidelock 6 lbs 8oz and on the lower end of your price range.
 

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Wow, thanks for all the replies folks. Great community here.

I guess i'm not opposed at all to older guns. Really, I would likely prefer an older firearm (i'm an old soul at heart, I prefer the use of vintage hand tools as carpenter, grow my garden by hand, I do everything "the old fashioned way" for the most part) if I knew I could trust it, I wouldn't know what to look for in an older firearm. I'll read up on proof marking and chamber lengths like gunholic suggests

I'm no mechanic, and though I very lightly tinker with firearms I'm worried I 'll make a crap purchase, something won't work correctly shortly after purchasing, or something will be off slightly and I won't know how to fix it. Much like a vehicle purchase.

I guess an important thing to note: I'm left handed, and left eye dominant. Not sure how many bothered making left hand firearms back then, or if it matters at all for a SXS

Carpenter
 
TheCarpenter said:
I guess an important thing to note: I'm left handed, and left eye dominant. Not sure how many bothered making left hand firearms back then, or if it matters at all for a SXS
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It would have been about as common as the predominance of left handed shooters. Not exactly common, but certainly not unheard of.

An English shotgun will typically have either cast-on, cast-off, or a neutral buttstock. Cast means the buttstock is bent to one side or the other to allow the shooter to align his eye with the rib. RH shooters will have the stock bent to the right; this is cast-off. Cast-on is bent to the left for LH shooters. Neutral stocks fit both left & right handers equally poorly.

The best way to learn to evaluate a used double is to find someone knowledgeable with a few guns to examine.

The wood should be slightly 'proud', that is the wood surface should be slightly higher than the adjoining metal. If the metal is proud of the wood, then the stock has either been sanded and refinished, or it's shrunk from loss of moisture.

Dents; best seen looking through clean barrels, they will appear as little shadows. Some will tell you it's ok to fire a gun with dented barrels, but I don't agree and most English trained smiths would disagree as well. Count on a couple hundred bucks to get a dent lifted.

Loose barrels; barrels can come off the face. Sometimes this can be seen, if you hold the gun up to the light, a sliver of light can be seen between the standing breech and the breech face of the barrels. Another way to test is to take the forend off, hold the gun vertically and give it a shake. If it's off the face the barrels can be felt or heard to rattle. Fixable, but this should be reflected in the price of the gun.

Suspend the barrels by the lumps, ( the protuberance under the chambers) from your finger. Careful not to drop them, or you'll get an example of dented barrels. Give the barrels a tap with your other finger. They should 'ring' or 'chime'. If they sound 'dead', it likely means loose ribs. Fixable, but it's not cheap getting ribs relaid as it generally means a polish and reblack at the same time.

Don't get hung up on the maker's name engraved on the action. Thousand of guns were sold to the trade by big manufacturers like Webley, and the small gunmakers would simply finish and put their name on it. The name is not an absolute indication of who made it and everybody bought in actions or complete guns to some degree.

Don't get hung up on ejectors either. Extractor guns should be a little cheaper, and it's one less thing to worry about going wrong.
 
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For new guns in your price range Turkish makers is about all you're going to get. Not all are bad. I own 4 huglu doubles and all have been great. Huglu makes cz guns to cz specs
Churchill and Weatherby Orion are options as well in you're range
The next step up is itailian FAIR and RFM project upland lands. While slightly over over your budget on the base models they are fone guns
Used guns have been debated above and I can't add much to what others have posted

I shoot with skeet with a lefty who I just got into sxs guns. He choose an AyA a plainer model used from intersurplus and he shoots it well despite it not being a left handed built gun. The stock is closer to neutral than cast off.
AyA always used good materials and even they're cheapest guns are well made. For $350-600 you can get a 12ga dual trigger english gripped sxs that will easily out last you
Some sponsors have the higher end models from AyA being #2 design. Prophet river has a couple I keep looking at. While more expensive they are much more elaborate gun
The AyA #2 IS likely the most popular sxs in the the UK
 
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