MOOSE AT 550 yards

I think you are referring to this one, but I don't seem to be able to make it bigger.
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That is the one,it's a good eye opener.



400 yards a gimmee?
Where exactly do you aim for a 400 yard shot?
What if its blowing 10MPH...or is that 17mph?
What if the shot is a steep down angle? How steep? Where do you aim at a 400 yard moose with a 18% slope? How do you measure slope on your garden variety bolt action rifle?
What if you just cleaned your rifle barrel?
What if it's 20 below zero? Do you aim somewhere else?
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Where do I hold at 400 yards?
With my 7mmstw sighted in 2-3/4"high at 100 yards,the point of impact is 6" low at 400 yards,so I am still holding well onto the animal.

What if there is an 18% slope?
Given that the point of impact with my load is about 1" high at 300 yards,and that the difference in point of impact only changes 5" from 300 yards to 400 yards,a range error of even 50 yards will only result in the point of impact being a couple of inches out,which means very little on a moose.That 18% grade is totally insignificant with the rifle and load that I am using for an example,so I don't need to be able to measure slope.

What about a clean barrel?
I have checked the zero with a clean barrel,and with the rifle in question,and it will shoot the first three rounds out of a clean barrel into 1/2",as will most of my rifles,so no compensation required for a clean barrel.

How about -20?
As for -20,the point of impact with my load changes by less than 1" at 400 yards,after the gun is sighted in at around 0 degrees to +5 degrees.I purposely sight in at this temperature to minimize the effect of changes of temperature.

That leaves only the wind drift.The wind drift with a 10mph wind is around 9" at 400 yards for my load.If I misjudge the wind by 7mph,My shot would be out less than 7" worst case scenario with a 90 degree wind.With a quartering wind it would be less,depending on the angle.If the wind feels to strong or too variable,I don't try the shot
 
well spoken Stubble -- like it is some big mystery to sight your rifle in at cold temperatures or know your drops.

I agree that wind is the one factor that would stop me in my tracks from a long shot. But it would have to be a pretty complex wind that would stop me from contemplating a good solid kill.

I have said this before on othe rposts on this subject (which really appears to divide people quite strongly) -- it is not an everyday shot, but if you have waited 10 years or more for your tag, and you have 2 weeks to get it, and you have given up everything else you have pressing on your time to hunt this animal, and you have travelled soo far to hunt, and you have a 500 yd shot that you have trained for, and you cannot get closer as it is on another ridge or across a swamp and time is ticking away -- I see absolutely no reason not to shoot the animal.

Or you say - no too far - cant shoot because I have not used this rifle for more than one shot a year and I have not practised and I cannot climb up there anyway ......- pack up and go home and wait another 10 years for your next crack.

I choose to be ready for the one chance I MAY get and be ready to make my choice on the spot - yes or no. And live with my choice.
 
a 500 yd shot that you have trained for,
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That is the key factor.It doesn't matter if you have waited 10 years to draw a tag,and have driven 1000 miles,and have taken all of your vacation,and have spent a considerable sum,if you haven't prepared for a 500 yard shot by actually shooting your load at 500 yards,and practiced regularly at 500 yards,don't take the shot.
 
I have fired thousands of rounds of 308 at all distances from 100 to 1200 yards with a 308 (similar to a 30-06). Even when I know exactly the distance to the target, the first shot is not always in a moose kill zone at 500 yards.

You were right in passing on the shot. That was the ethical choice.

My buddy and I once saw a moose enter the cut-over a long way away. We both shot, aiming high. I had a 358 Win. he had a 308 with open sights. The moose turned and walked back the way he had come from.

it took us a half hour to get there, the walking was so bad. Moose was dead. Hit twice in the lungs. Once from each side. Later two 308 bullets were recovered. other than rifling marks, they could have been loaded again. The soft points were almost intact. Zero expansion.

That was 425 yards.

If I was going to set up to take a 500 yard shot, I would want a good bipod set up and my 338 Mag. And a range finder and some known elevations from actual range shooting.
 
Good call on passing it up. You definatly dont have the rifle for it. Accurate kill shots at 600yds and beyond are quite doable with the proper equipment and ability and mostly MONEY. The gear required isnt cheap and neither is the amount of practice. Many of todays 30cal and larger magnums have sufficiant energy to take down a moose at over 1000yds with accurate shot placement. Ive taken animals at over 600yds. with no hesitation unless there was a wind. I dont like guessing that. The downside is whats between you and the animal once its down. On one occasion there was two rivers between me and the downed moose. That was a bad pack job.
 
"Ganderite - did you hit it with your 358?"

When I got home I checked the elevation tables. I am guessing my bullets hit the ground about 50 yards in front of the moose.

I am a skilled rifle shot. My buddy is the typical hunter. He was using a Winchester 88 with open sights. The inititial assumption was that it was me that did the deed. I was modest about my incredible long range skill.

Later, the butcher presented my buddy with a pair of 180 gr 308 bullets. His friends then accused him of being "lucky". He was. He told me he "aimed over the moose's back" because it was so far away.

A moose at 425 yards looks like a dog with little antlers. Based on this experience, I would say that if the animal is not beyond 300 yards, and I can get a solid rest, I would take the shot (assuming I had something better than a 358). But not over 300 yards.

My range estimatings skill is plus or minus 100 yards, at best.
 
A win88 with open sights! good story tho -- I would likely not attempt that shot with my win 88 with peep sight. I wouldnt be able to see the moose anymore - but it goes to show that a rifle is a tool that can be used in remarkable ways if you can use it. Whats the saying ? A poor craftsman blames his tools....

I dont agree that you need tons of money to learn to shoot well. Any good accurate rifle and likely scope with practice, practice --- you know, is all you need.

Sharps rifles with peep sights are still shot at distance accurately - as they were in years gone by.

There is no magic; there is no "right" rifle; it is a skill that you learn and practice.

Just like knowing where to hunt and how to hunt -- they are all skills that you learn, practice and just whe you think you know everything, you learn some more.

Have fun however you want to hunt.
 
The ORA used to stage sniper matches on field fire ranges. These were places where one could shoot in almost any direction, and there were no known-distance targets or prepared mounds to lie on. If one shot prone, tall grass and some bushes would create some problems. No wind flags. No range finders.

Targets were set up at distances of 100 yards out to about 800 yards. The target was the Figure 11 "Charging Hun". 20 " wide and about 48" tall.

Each pair of shooters had to shoot at all targets in a limited time period - say about 20 minutes. The other shooter would try to spot for his buddy. The time and ability to spot shots was a big advantage over a hunting situation where there is only one good shot opportunity.

The shooters were all very experienced target rifle and F Class shooters. After 300 yards the hits were scarce and few if any hits beyond 500 yards. The problem was wind. Wind drift can easily be a foot or two on a taget that only allowed 10" of error. I can estimate wind fairly well, but this assumes one knows the distance - which i did not. So adding range error to wind error the result is a miss, even if my range estimate was close enough to get a hit for elevation - which it often was not.

Based on the observation that a couple of dozen very experienced shooters with better equipment and ammo than a hunting rig could not get reliable hits much beyond 300 yards suggests that 300 yards is a realistic maximum.
 
All good info mostly, lets just not get the wrong message out to new to the sport of hunting shall we.
Anyone that can walk up an extra 300 meters , and does not, well these folks make me sick.:D no matter if its a 338 Lapua or a 308 win :)
 
My last post on this -- I agree that everyone owes a duty of care to the animal to kill it dead as quickly as possible.

I also know that close or far, great shot or poor shot, magnum or blackpowder, an animal may not just bang flop as we all hope. It is a gritty bit of business.

Bullets, wind, sticks, flinching .... all can and will cause an issue at 10 yards or 1000 yards. That is why you should start early on your skills and keep working on them for your entire lifetime. But never be scared of trying to do something that you believe you can make happen - otherwise you dont get better.

I cannot stand to see an animal suffer in any way - and I swear that I do all that is possible to end it's suffering quickly.

Levi is right as are others in this thread - you do what you can to improve your odds at ALL times - and then do your best.

Sometimes there is nothing like packing a bull elk out over a couple of streams through tree stumps and snow up to your butt for some distance to set your mind straight as to what not to do next time. Life is a learning experience. Try it and learn.
 
Boomer said:
The question is not one of shooting big game with bullets designed to expand within the velocity range of the .30/30. By the way, .30 caliber big game bullets designed to expand fully at .30/30 velocities have become quite specialized and are not normally chosen for even a .308 or a .30/06. The question is about shooting big game with bullets designed to expand reliably and without failure when fired at high velocity but with low velocity impacts due to extended ranges. The pretty pictures you refer to are evidence that bullets designed for use in modern cartridges, and for use on big game, do not do particularly well when the velocity drops much below 2000 fps.
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What the fu_k are you talking about dude?? "30 caliber big game bullets designed to expand fully at .30/30 velocities have become quite specialized " your in la la land

regardless I will concede big game bullets do not expand as easily as most bullets however my beef was with your statement that "most bullets do not expand much under 2000 fps" and thats just not true most big game bullets maybe but thats not most bullets.
 
WOW catfish I'm thinking your location tells it all you do just sit in front of your computer you should get out and actually see what is going on in the real world, newbie armchair quarterbacks that haven't a clue are such good humour.

I'm thinking next time you should do some hands on research before you spew...

Oh and welcome to gunnutz... :p
 
goring said:
Hi just wondering if anyone could tell me the best rifle, load, scope for knocking down a large bull moose at 550 to 600 yards. Have a 30-06 pump and did not want to take the shot being afraid it wouldn't have enough when it got there and did not want to wound it and turn it into wolf bait. Thanks
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Sneakers, dude, sneak up on it, that's too long of a shot to be responsibly shooting at an animal one shot one kill, unless you are a trained sniper, you need to rethink your strategy.
 
Catfish, perhaps you can explain how it is that the bullets in the pictures I posted didn't expand if what you say is true. According to you they should have all expanded to 1.5X their original diameter regardless of velocity. But don't take my word for it, do your own research. Grab your .30/06 or a .300 Winchester and set up some impact targets at various ranges, that you can retrieve a selection of bullets from and that allows you to measure the wound volume in, then get back to us on that. Or you can handload your ammo to simulate long range velocity for similar results. Oh, your only rifle is a .30/30, oh, you don't handload, ah I see.
 
Barnes

Just one quick visit to the Barnes web site is all you need to do. Since we're talking about HUNTING, we will exclude all match, varmint etc bullets. Most of the Barnes HUNTING bullets are listed as expanding at 1800fps to 3500, 3600, 3700, or 3800 fps.

I guess Barnes doesn't know what they are talking about. They know a bullet has to be able to expand at very close range with the assorted magnums and at very long range with the same guns. Usually once you drop below 1800fps your ft-pds also drops below acceptable levels for clean kills.
 
notenough said:
Just one quick visit to the Barnes web site is all you need to do. Since we're talking about HUNTING, we will exclude all match, varmint etc bullets. Most of the Barnes HUNTING bullets are listed as expanding at 1800fps to 3500, 3600, 3700, or 3800 fps.

I guess Barnes doesn't know what they are talking about. They know a bullet has to be able to expand at very close range with the assorted magnums and at very long range with the same guns. Usually once you drop below 1800fps your ft-pds also drops below acceptable levels for clean kills.
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The bullets I was referring to were lead core hunting bullets. Far more traditional cup and lead core hunting bullets are used in the field every year than are either premium mono-metal bullets or bonded lead core solid shank bullets. Mono-metal hollow-point bullets like those from Barnes or from GS Custom open hydraulically when fluid is driven into the nose of the bullet and the bullet then upsets to the depth of the hollow point. Lead core bullets expand through a very different process, dependent upon not only the impact velocity, but also the density of the target. The TSX is fully expanded within a few inches of penetration of a game animal, but when the lead core bullet upsets, the amount of upset is controlled by the thickness of the tapered jacket and by the length and hardness of the lead core. If a lead core bullet is to achieve a similar amount of upset to the mono-metal hollow-point bullet, it requires a higher impact velocity, and the harder the lead core, the higher the impact velocity if a similar amount of upset is to be achieved. I've recovered cast bullets with impacts of 1800 fps that show no expansion at all, so if a jacketed hunting bullet had a lead core of the same alloy one might expect that it would not upset either. If you prefer to say that reliable bullet performance requires 1800 fps I won't argue too loudly, as it does not contradict my message that velocity cannot drop much below 2000 fps is reliable bullet performance is to be maintained, and atleast you took the trouble to find out.
 
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My comments on the Nolser Accubonds opening up below 1800fps is from discussions with a Nolser tech that when I mention that Nosler had used the technology of the J bullets that were designed to open at far lower velocities than 1800fps he did not disagree.

Basically J bullets were originally designed for use in the then new T/C Contender handguns where velocities would drop well below 1800fps very quickly example the original .375" jacketed/bonded 235gr J bullets designed for the 375JDJ would open at velocities as low as 1400fps.

Nosler states to the general public that 1800fps is the lowest velocity that the bullets will expand but when pressed as in my case agree that they will most definately open at lower velocities than 1800fps.

With that said my personal cut off for my T/C Contender carbine in 375JDJ with 260gr Accubonds with a muzzle velocity of 2300fps = 1800fps @ 300 yards.
 
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