Moose Bullet Selection

buckhunter49 said:
I would choose the barnes bullet if you can get it to shoot in your gun. This year a guy from our group shot a cow and she dropped drt. The range was 455 yds and he was shooting a 308 in 165 gr barnes. Now he actually is on a competitive shooting team through his work and he puts more shots down range in a day then most of us do in a lifetime of hunting. He knows his gun and knows his drop and windage etc.
But that Barnes went through the boiler room and exited the far shoulder. It passed right thru and didnt fragment at all. I was highly impressed with this bullet after seeing that. the same guy dropped a small bull on the same trip at 283 yds. Bull dropped right there. Another perfect pass thru.
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That shot, if it happened, was luck. That bullet would knitting needle at that range and velocity so to hit and kill a moose "DRT" means a CNS hit which, at that range, is just a lucky shot. And luck, in the hunting field, shouldn't be aspired to or hoped for. The Barnes, as good a bullet as it is, is a dog#### bullet for long range hunting.
 
H4831 said:
You sure must have small moose in Ontario!
I would say the deadly zone on a mature moose is about twenty inches, considering the big deadly spine and hump area on a high shot, it may be more.
The OP said super accuracy, usually meaning sub MOA. So what's the point in having a rifle that accurate, when taken to the hunting field where it would be an extremely rare shooter who can shoot two MOA and a more realistic figure for moose hunters under actual hunting conditions is probably more like 4 to 6 inches like at 100 yards, even with your run of the mill rests, like resting the rifle against a tree and the shooter is well practiced.
Besides the poor shooting at game that I have seen, I base part of my opinion on the results of a major shooting competition that ran for several years in BC and Alberta, starting in the early 1970s and may still be held in some areas, the Rifleman's Rodeo.
It was designed for hunters, using life size big game animal targets with scoring rings place over the vital areas, with the ten ring being 4 inches and going down at least an inch between each ring of 9,8,7 and so on. The targets were from 100 to 300 yards, with running, actually smoothly running on tracks, deer and antelope, at 100 yards, a bear at 200, a sheep at 250 and a goat at 300.
A shooter could use any position, like prone or sitting, but could not rest the rifle on any inert object and was allowed one shot at each target. When he/she was ready a target would appear, but the shooter would not know which target until it appeared. The stationary targets would pop up and stay for 4 seconds.
I was one of the club officials running the show at our town, I was secretary of the club for several years and I still have most of the official scoring books.
A perfect score would be 50, meaning each shot in a ten ring. There were several hundred events shot every year and in the 8 or 9 years our club hosted the shoot, and shooters came from wide areas in Alberta, BC, and, even one or two from Sask., the highest score ever shot was 44 and this by a young lady who's dad, that always shot in the events, was a virtual professional rifle shot.
More years than not there wouldn't be one single score of 40 or more, shot! Meaning no one would average all five shots in the 8 ring, for those years. The Rifleman's Rodeo, which started in Calgary, was designed to get hunters out shooting and meant to attract hunters, as well as target shooters. The rifles had to be at least 6mm bore.
And here was the pay off. Many, and I mean a lot, and often, shooters who were hunters, but not target shooters, would shoot their five shots and not touch a scoring ring, not even a 1 or 2 ring. A score of zilch!
As I stated, I still have the official score books from several years of shooting, so I am not going by memory, but have the books to prove what I have said.
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If we are talking accuracy, then we need to talk of a contiguous kill zone.... Not 10!inches there, 5 inches there etc..... Point of aim plus or minus your chosen radius.....

I will go out on a limb.... If I Am going to squeeze the trigger at an animal 500 yards away, I want a rifle in my mitts that I am confident with and will shoot MOA...... (I don't shoot over 250 for this very reason)....
 
H4831 said:
You sure must have small moose in Ontario!
I would say the deadly zone on a mature moose is about twenty inches, considering the big deadly spine and hump area on a high shot, it may be more.
d.
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I was going to say the same thing, the kill zone on a moose is closer to 2 feet in diameter than 10" in diameter! Heck, the heart alone is pretty close to 10" :)
 
Superbrad said:
If we are talking accuracy, then we need to talk of a contiguous kill zone.... Not 10!inches there, 5 inches there etc..... Point of aim plus or minus your chosen radius.....

I will go out on a limb.... If I Am going to squeeze the trigger at an animal 500 yards away, I want a rifle in my mitts that I am confident with and will shoot MOA...... (I don't shoot over 250 for this very reason)....
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It looks like you have completely missed my point. The average moose hunter is such a poor shot, under actual hunting conditions, that there is no practical difference in whether his rifle shoots 1 or 2 MOA off a bench rest.
I am finished with this.
Good night.
 
H4831 said:
It looks like you have completely missed my point. The average moose hunter is such a poor shot, under actual hunting conditions, that there is no practical difference in whether his rifle shoots 1 or 2 MOA off a bench rest.
I am finished with this.
Good night.
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Bruce, sorry you tuned out.... And I agree with you....

You either need to answer the OP or use your personal idea of what the "average moose Hunter" is........

I rsespect your opinion, but it has zero to do with the original question.....
 
I have had MAJOR bullet failure with the .208 Amax. Shot a two point mule deer with a 300wsm and the 208 @2750fps. Can't remember the exact range now but it was a bit over 300 meters. I shot off a really steady tree limb and the bullet hit perfectly on the center of vitals. The bullet exploded on the hide and didn't even get inside the chest. The two ribs that were directly under the impact spot were turned to dust and the energy transfer was enough to dislocate the front side shoulder. Even though you couldn't get a quicker kill than this, I quit using them. I'm sure if this had been a moose things would have turned out a lot worse.
 
Bruce, 95% of the people who post on this site seem to me to be shooters first and not primarily hunters. The name of this site says it all. I have witnessed first hand the pathetic shooting of many of our "elite" moose hunters in Saskatchewan during a moose hunting clinic taught by a skilled biologist that I hosted on my property some years ago. When faced with the challenge of shooting a moving moose target, towed by hand, shooting offhand, at 80 yards distance, ( similar to the basic qualification test in Finland) the majority of the 40 or so shooters present could only put 2 or 3 of 5 shots in the vital zone. Some struggled to make any vital hits. Some could only get three shots off in the time allocated. Problems with loading/ejection, safety operation, whatever. However, a few experienced hunters had no trouble shooting 5 quick shots into the vitals. Some of the group shot big magnums, with thumbhole stocks, scopes with turrets, muzzle brakes, bipods attached, etc. etc. But none of the good shots used such equipment. I doubt that any of the rifles / shooters who posted good scores could have produced tiny groups off a bench. I know who I would have bet on if a winter's meat was the prize.

So, given that general lack of basic rifle handling skills among typical moose hunters, I wonder about the ones who are primarily shooters at a range and who don't even have the limited field experience of the hunters that I witnessed. They can shoot very tiny groups off a bench, or off bipods from prone, and that is all they have to measure their potential hunting success. So they obsess about tiny groups from controlled conditions. That's is only natural. But also pretty much irrelevant in real hunting conditions. I would bet on the skills of an experienced field shot any day over someone who obsesses over tiny groups from a bench.

And bullet performance IN moose once you hit them trumps tiny groups from a bench rest every time.
 
Cleftwynd said:
Partition, A-Frame, Accubonds, interbonds, scirocco II, TSX, gameking, etc....
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Most of mine were shot with swift a-frames, awesome bullet and hole out other side. None over 200 yards though, you shouldn't have to shoot one more than 250ish I'd think, but ya never know. I'd use the a-frame if I had a fly in booked.

But if ya think you need to go long, I'd use 168lrx or 180 accubonds in the wsm and 165 accubonds or maybe 150ttsx in the '06.

Moose aren't hard to kill, there kinda wimps for how big they are.

Disclaimer - I don't own any 30cal and won't never hunt/own an '06 :)
 
Practical marksmanship is pretty much beyond the capability of anyone who lacks the self discipline required to take shooting seriously. In addition to the jitters associated with "buck fever", one must be dressed appropriately for the weather, which when wet or cold affects LOP, eye relief, and the feel of the trigger. You can shoot all summer long, and be completely unprepared for the realities of shooting during a cold or wet weather hunt.

The only way to get hits on a moving target is to shoot at moving targets in practice, but instead everyone is worried about group size, rather than the point of impact from their point of aim. Shooting from a small boat or from a canoe in a current is a challenge that is seldom addressed, and means you have to aim behind where you want the bullet to strike, which is counter intuitive to most shooters, and if the craft is subject to a bit of chop on the water, well good luck.

But the greatest challenge to the big game hunter's marksmanship is the open ended timing of making the shot on a live target. Varmint and predator hunters have the advantage over target shooters in this regard, because every shot, has open ended timing, the target is never motionless for very long, and is smaller with less margin for error than a big game animal. When your sight finds it's mark, the tendency is to rush the shot, and jerk the trigger, not knowing if the animal will move in a second or a minute, but knowing it will move, and that you don't have all day to get your breathing under control, and then slowly press the trigger with that cold numb finger. One must learn patience, and take his time quickly, in order to make that compressed surprise break. Once mastered, it appears to the observer that the rifle speaks the moment the shooter's cheek hits the comb, but riflemen know what's going on.
 
Well said Boomer, I was raised shooting at running rabbits with a 22, running deer with rifles, and ducks with shotguns. The range is where I do NOT shine lol. I guess only hunters and not range shooters know the difference. Bench practice is about the gear, field practice is about the shooter.
 
Agree with the above.... the bench is a great place to develop a load, get your rifle zeroed and that's about it...... I practice way more offhand than I do rested.... And when I want to practice on moving targets that's what the gravel pit and an old tire comes in handy...
 
Thank you, Longwalker, for your post. I grew up in the bush lands of north easterly Saskatchewan and by the end of my teen years I had shot four deer and a bull moose, shot north of the Torch. But that was a looooong time ago.
In my report on the once held Rifleman's Rodeo, I made it clear that the good scores were all made by target shooters, and not by primarily hunters.
By "target shooters," I did not mean those who shot targets from a bench rest. I should have said, "competitive shooters."
In those great years of shooting, the approximately twenty years following WW2, shooting competitions, large and small, were held in every city, town and settlement in Canada, for both small bore and full bore rifles. None of these competitions allowed any artificial support for the rifle. Many of them were for three position shooting, with off hand being one of the three positions. This was the type of target shooters I was referring to.
I was a quite active shooter during those great years of shooting.
Here is a picture, showing my trophies won with rifle and pistol. This picture is not posted for bragging purposes, as it is simple compared to what some have won and is posted here with the hope of encouraging more people to post what they have won in competitions.
 
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H4831 said:
Thank you, Longwalker, for your post. I grew up in the bush lands of north easterly Saskatchewan and by the end of my teen years I had shot four deer and a bull moose, shot north of the Torch. But that was a looooong time ago.
In my report on the once held Rifleman's Rodeo, I made it clear that the good scores were all made by target shooters, and not by primarily hunters.
By "target shooters," I did not mean those who shot targets from a bench rest. I should have said, "competitive shooters."
In those great years of shooting, the approximately twenty years following WW2, shooting competitions, large and small, were held in every city, town and settlement in Canada, for both small bore and full bore rifles. None of these competitions allowed any artificial support for the rifle. Many of them were for three position shooting, with off hand being one of the three positions. This was the type of target shooters I was referring to.
I was a quite active shooter during those great years of shooting.
Here is a picture, showing my trophies won with rifle and pistol. This picture is not posted for bragging purposes, as it is simple compared to what some have won and is posted here with the hope of encouraging more people to post what they have won in competitions.
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Excellent comment H4831, and congrats on your achievements in competitive shooting. I always encourage hunters to get out to the range more often and practice, it makes a person a better shooter. Personally, I don't have the type of hardware/trophies as yours, mine are not displayed on shelves but on the walls and in 5 photo albums. My son and I practice several times annually and it paid off this year on a running 80 yard shot at a bull moose.......right behind the shoulder into the lungs.
 
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