More headspace understanding needed

[MartyK2500]

In theory, neck tension would be the difference between case neck opening and bullet dia., and the bullet doesn't compress during seating.
Will seat some soon and see if this holds the road.
Got a few questions regarding my die but will start a thread of my own not to contaminate yours too much!

 

[bigedp51]

Biged
Speed bumps are user error
If you dry tumble, and resize using this technique: resize neck, pull back slightly, rotate casing 1/8 turn, resize neck 2nd time
There shouldn’t be any bump marks or streak marks or whatever people call them, it’s in the LEE instructions Tips for Using LEE Collet Dies
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/...e-collet-dies/

Size Twice and Spin Your Case 1/8th Turn
After reaching fully “down” on your press handle, withdraw the case about an inch and manually rotate it about 1/8th (NOT 1/4 or 1/2) turn while still in the shell-holder, then size again. This will place the die’s collet petals on the four “high spots” of the case neck and will result in a rounder, more evenly-sized neck with slightly more bullet tension. This takes only about one second more per case and is well worth the slight extra effort.


These redding match shell holders look great, I’ll probably buy some.
I remember with my Lee setup, i had to shave a shellholder to allow 2 thou bump as die would contact shellholder before bump was made.

I am not saying forster FLS is bad and will even buy one in 2018 to experiment a limited batch of ammo with.This will place the die’s collet petals on the four “high spots” of the case neck and will result in a rounder, more evenly-sized neck with slightly more bullet tension
Just making sure there’s no misconceptions on lee collet die, as it doesn’t make speed bumps if used right

The Lee collet die has slots cut in the collet and brass flows into these slots as the neck is compressed. Rotating the case simply compresses the slot marks on the neck. The Lee collet die compresses the case neck inward around the mandrel and the slots in the collet grab the case neck putting marks on the neck.

Bottom line, it is not user error it is the design of the collet and how it compresses the case neck and brass flow into the slots in the collet. I like to check my cases after sizing for neck runout and do not need "speed bumps" on my case necks to screw up the gauge readings.

As you can read below the collet leaves four vertical raised marks on the case neck and rotating the case and sizing again simply flattens these raised marks. (speed bumps)
The slots cut in the collet can be very rough and hard to polish smooth and do leave vertical marks on the case neck. I have several Lee collet dies and do not use them because they do leave marks on the case neck and I prefer to full length resize my cases and no speed bumps on my case necks.

Tips for Using LEE Collet Dies
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/01/tips-for-using-lee-collet-dies/

Size Twice and Spin Your Case 1/8th Turn
After reaching fully “down” on your press handle, withdraw the case about an inch and manually rotate it about 1/8th (NOT 1/4 or 1/2) turn while still in the shell-holder, then size again. This will place the die’s collet petals on the four “high spots” of the case neck and will result in a rounder, more evenly-sized n “high spots”eck with slightly more bullet tension. This takes only about one second more per case and is well worth the slight extra effort.


Please notice above it says it will make the raised marks "rounder" and it does not say it eliminates the marks on the case neck. And you can forget using a concentricity gauge on your case necks checking neck runout if you use a Lee collet die.

 

[bigedp51]

I’m a greenhorn Reloader but have been finding yours and Jerry’s posts very informative.

I’m about to order the Forster FL die. Will it work with standard shell holders? I currently have RCBS holders.

Yes the Forster die will work with any standard shell holder, RCBS, Lee, etc.

 

[RonR]

My rifle is not too fancy, but i got a fancy barrel on order on the way from Jerry.
It will help eliminate if the barrel is a factor in my groups not being where i want.
If barrel doesn't help, I could chalk it down to shooter and/or reloads.

On a target sheet, I can place 25 shots, 5 shots x 5 groups.
Biggest group is 0.7 moa and smallest is 0.4 moa.

Sure, if I'd go for an only 3 shot group i could claim my rifle is quarter moa, being honest with myself involves having many rounds shot before actually claiming certain accuracies (or inaccuracies).
Really hoping for steady sub 0.5 moa accuracy with this barrel, then i'll stop d***ing around with reloads and just shoot.

I believe my rifle is where I am at for limit for accuracy. A nothing fancy factory bolt, but when I achieve the right load...and the reloading process is in control...and the rifle and bullets really start zipping together it's just around MOA. The satisfaction of the moment is starting to match the results.

My plan is to save the action and have Mystic put something together that's within budget. But in the mean time it's all about learning and putting meat in the freezer.

RonR, how did you remove material from the mandrel? Hand held drill and fine sandpaper? Lathe?

Drill and 80 grit is what I had on hand. I ordered an extra mandrel (-.002) from Higginson's for about $10 including shipping but it must have been labeled incorrectly. It matched the factory mandrel dia. (I ordered with them because it was available according to their website and in stock.)

The surface finish on the mandrel wasn't polished so I wasn't concerned too much. Rough or mirror shine didn't matter. I've got it rationalized in my head that any roughness on the mandrel may be "translatable" to some more friction resulting in the same effect as neck tension or helping the mandrel grip the inside of the neck during sizing.

Don't be shy about the hand grip pressure applied with the sand paper or emery cloth...it's steel. That being said do be careful to not create inconsistencies. Smooth and consistent from the start to the end of the mandrel, like the feed rate on a lathe or milling machine. Measure often. It may take a while.

Regards
Ronr

 

[mod7rem]

The Lee collet die has slots cut in the collet and brass flows into these slots as the neck is compressed. Rotating the case simply compresses the slot marks on the neck. The Lee collet die compresses the case neck inward around the mandrel and the slots in the collet grab the case neck putting marks on the neck.

Bottom line, it is not user error it is the design of the collet and how it compresses the case neck and brass flow into the slots in the collet. I like to check my cases after sizing for neck runout and do not need "speed bumps" on my case necks to screw up the gauge readings.

As you can read below the collet leaves four vertical raised marks on the case neck and rotating the case and sizing again simply flattens these raised marks. (speed bumps)
The slots cut in the collet can be very rough and hard to polish smooth and do leave vertical marks on the case neck. I have several Lee collet dies and do not use them because they do leave marks on the case neck and I prefer to full length resize my cases and no speed bumps on my case necks.

Tips for Using LEE Collet Dies
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2016/01/tips-for-using-lee-collet-dies/

Size Twice and Spin Your Case 1/8th Turn
After reaching fully “down” on your press handle, withdraw the case about an inch and manually rotate it about 1/8th (NOT 1/4 or 1/2) turn while still in the shell-holder, then size again. This will place the die’s collet petals on the four “high spots” of the case neck and will result in a rounder, more evenly-sized n “high spots”eck with slightly more bullet tension. This takes only about one second more per case and is well worth the slight extra effort.


Please notice above it says it will make the raised marks "rounder" and it does not say it eliminates the marks on the case neck. And you can forget using a concentricity gauge on your case necks checking neck runout if you use a Lee collet die.

I agree with you, the lee collet die does leave "speed bumps". But I disagree with your last statement. I find it very easy to accurately measure the run out on the case neck after using the collet die. The "speed bumps" create 4 little consistent blips on the dial indicator per rotation that measure less than 1/2 a thou. Its very easy to see this happening and accurately measure whats going on with runout, even on 223 cases.

I'm not tryimg to say the lee collet die is better than a Forster FL die, they're just the dies I'm using now for a few different cartridges. The next time I tool up for a different cartridge I will probably be buying a Forster FL die to go with the Forster BR seating dies that I already like.

 

[bigedp51]

I agree with you, the lee collet die does leave "speed bumps". But I disagree with your last statement. I find it very easy to accurately measure the run out on the case neck after using the collet die. The "speed bumps" create 4 little consistent blips on the dial indicator per rotation that measure less than 1/2 a thou. Its very easy to see this happening and accurately measure whats going on with runout, even on 223 cases.

I'm not tryimg to say the lee collet die is better than a Forster FL die, they're just the dies I'm using now for a few different cartridges. The next time I tool up for a different cartridge I will probably be buying a Forster FL die to go with the Forster BR seating dies that I already like.

Many reloaders like the Lee collet dies "but" I just can't make myself like them verses standard dies.

And the best part of reloading is the person pulling the press handle decides how to do it.

With Redding bushing dies if you do not neck turn they recommend reducing the inside neck diameter .004 smaller than bullet diameter. And use the expander that come with their dies to expand the neck.

So remember you have no control over how much your case necks expand when fired. And the neck expanding when fired works the brass and you have to reduce the fired diameter to below bullet diameter.

Meaning the Lee collet die only reduces the neck diameter a few thousandths less than a standard die. And the only real advantage is not having to lube the cases.

And again if your happy with "your" reloading methods then this is all that matters.

I tried many type and make dies when testing .223 dies and the Forster full length benchrest die came in first place in my opinion. And I then installed the Forster expander and spindle assemblies on my RCBS and Redding dies to reduce neck runout.

Below RCBS and Redding dies with Forster expander and spindle assemblies.