My first precision rifle .223 or .308

C9-Gunner

C9-Gunner

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Hi guys,

I'm a new guy in the world of precision rifles (as I have not have any reloading tools yet to tweak)

But I'm still deciding a rifle but it has somewhat come down to the Remington 700 R-5.
I've yet to decide a caliber...
I heard mix review and suggestion saying that if I'm building a 1000yrd rifle, it'd have to be a .308
Then I've had a bunch telling me that with practice and the proper ammo, the .223 could match the .308 at 1000yrd no problem.

So basically, I've decided it'd be the Rem 700 R5. but what caliber?
 
I've heard arguments in favour or both, but I just bought a Rem 700 R5 Milspec in 308. My reasoning was if it's good enough for the M24 and M40, it's good enough for me. There must be some reason Police and Military snipers use the 308 instead of the .223 cal.
 
How often will you actually shoot out to 1,000 meters? If you are shooting out to 300m most of the time then you can send a lot more .223 down range than .308 cost wise and practice makes perfect. Wind effect more noticeable with lighter .223 thus easier to learn the effects.

.223 69gr SMK 51 moa drop to 1,000m
.308 175 SMK 39 moa drop to 1,000m

Once have the trajectory, gravity should be fairly constant so will follow the same arc to 1,000m... thus that is not the issue. Wind is another matter with the lighter .223 projectile (sometimes they also have different horoscopes).

robertf said:
There must be some reason Police and Military snipers use the 308 instead of the .223 cal.
Click to expand...
If you do not intent to use your firearm for the same purpose that the Police and Military snipers then their criteria may not be as relevant to you (presumably you intent to punch a hole in paper, not a person, requires different amount of energy).

Would approach it something like this (percentages of course fairly arbitrary), shoot out to 1,000m
>75% 300WM
75% - 25% .308
<25% .223
And are all made in the 5R version.

My solution to the .223 and .308 5R decision is fairly uncomplicated:
5Rs.jpg
 
Well on a windy day even at 200 yards it is frustrating shooting a .223 and 55gr bullets. I am going to have to work up a load with some heavier bullets just for the windy days. It is cheaper to shoot .223 and my range only goes out to 200 yards so I see no reason to go with the .308. For now!!!
 
If money is an issue, you can shoot .223 cheaper. If you are a novice shooter you may develop a flinch problem with a 308 as your first rifle.
 
If you are set on that model and want to use it for long range then you should buy it in 308. The rate of twist on that 223 limits it to 69 Grain bullets. It will not match the ballistic coefficient of the 30 CAL 155 sierra palma match or the 175 grain smk.

However if you bought a faster twist 223 you could match the ballistics of the 308, for cheaper.


To understand the price difference between these two calibers here are prices from crafm for cheap ammo.

PMC .223 55gr FMJ (5.56mm M193 Spec)469.99$+tx for 1000 rounds
PMC .308 147gr FMJ (7.62mm M80 BallSpec)1089$+tx for 1000 rounds
 
Last year at Nationals at Connaught F/TR class .308w & 223r was won with 223 shooting 80gr bullets, this year the same fellow will be using 90gr as he changed barrel to faster twist 1/6.5 or 1/7. The best 155gr .308 is about 505 BC , the 90gr Bergers are 551 BC, it will be a plus for the 223 less wind drift.
 
Quibble #1: 1000 metres is *NOT* the same as 1000 yards.

Standard distances for competition shooting are 300y, 500y, 600y, 800y, 900y, 1000y. And on metres ranges, the standard distances are 300m, 500m, 600m, 700m 800m and 900m.

Shooting a good purpose-built .308 target rifle at 1000yards is within the limits of the gear, but pretty near the edge. At 1000 metres (~1100 yards), you are definitely in "specialist" territory.

A purpose-built .223 target rifle (long barrel, fast-twist, using 80+ grain match bullets) can roughly equal the performance of a .308. But all other things being equal, the .223 is more difficult to work with. Simply because it is smaller, it is that much more important to load precisely. A 0.1 grain variation in a 45 grain charge weight (.308) gives less of an effect than a 0.1 grain variation in a 25 grain charge weight (.223)..

noneck180 said:
A flinch from a .308?
Click to expand...

Absolutely. I've been target shooting with a .308 (13+ pound target rifle at that), and to this day I still work on controlling/suppressing/avoiding a flinch.


jasonburnsdundee said:
If you are set on that model and want to use it for long range then you should buy it in 308. The rate of twist on that 223 limits it to 69 Grain bullets. It will not match the ballistic coefficient of the 30 CAL 155 sierra palma match or the 175 grain smk.
Click to expand...

Agreed. If the 5R is a 10" twist or slower (bigger number), you won't be able to shoot the 75+ grain match bullets that are needed in order to give a .223 comparable wind-drift with a .308. Shooting 69-grain match bullets in a .223 is fine out to 600, but you get blown around by the wind a *LOT* more than a .308. Shooting 69s beyond 600 gets pretty iffy (it works on calm days, otherwise it gets disastrous).

However if you bought a faster twist 223 you could match the ballistics of the 308, for cheaper.
Click to expand...

Yes. A 1-9" twist .223, or even better a 1-8" .223, will allow you to match the .308. You'll get less recoil and it's cheaper to load for, but making ammo for it is fussier. There are more factory .308 match rounds available than .223 match (only a very limited selection).
 
You mention a factory rifle and then you mention a "build" so i am not sure if you're talking about two rifles or one

Daniel is correct on all fronts. 223's are ballistically very similar and use just over half of what you use in a 223 for powder. 308's can kick like a mule in a light gun and that is something to consider, but the 223 is less forgiving of small variables in loading and technique.


successful 1K shooting is not simply a case of poking at targets further away. All the small variables that affect 100M shooting are multiplied by a factory of at LEAST 10 UNDER IDEA CONDITIONS.

Learn to master short range before you dive head first into long range shoot
 
thank you so much for all the inputs.

I currently have a Savage 10fp in .308 (I'm a right-hand shooter for side note)
at 100 meters I could put a 10 round group within the size of a quarter. (i'm not sure if that's sufficient enough as a beginner precision shooter.)

But I do notice the .308 giving me a kick everytime. I bench rest the bugger but about every 20 rounds or so, I'd feel that flinch, which also equals out to the weird WTF shot.
my spotter is a friend sitting right beside me for marking down shot placement and helps me adjust for the wind.

I don't have loading equipments so all of my ammo are factory/store bought.

I wanted to head into the precision shooting because shooting at 100 ~ 200 meters with a .308 is now just plainly too easy as I could guarantee a group with about 1.5 inch (at 200 meters) (laser ranged it at 194 meters)
Plus the cost of .308 150gr is costing me about $25 per 20rounds
I tried those 168gr match bullets and they do about the exact same group at 200 m

Then I stumble on the Remington 700 R5 when this old guy from the range let me took a shot from it. I was able to place 5 shots (.223) touching one another at the 200 meters mark.

Hence why I bring it up to question. I found a nice place here in Chilliwack, B.C. up the mountain and laser ranged it out to 784 meters.
And my savage rifle is shooting "decently" *cough cough* the group size at first try was about 2 hands span on a piece of sheet metal... so... roughly... 1 foot and a few inches...

Now... I know the twist on the Rem R5 .308 to be 1:11.25
but what's the twist on the R5 in .223?

it seems to me that the decision is if I want kick ass shots and heavy bullet stability, I should go with the .308
and if I want a cheaper shooting but possible larger drift due to wind factor, I should go with .223?
 
If you are putting ten shots into a quarter-sized group at 100, you are shooting quite well. You couldn't do that unless you have figured out how to hold, aim, and shoot, and do so repeatedly and reliably.

I think (from a brief search) that the Rem 5R .223 has a 1-9" twist, though I'm not certain. A 1-9" twist is quick enough to stabilize most of the good 75 grain match bullets, and will allow you to get performance ("performance" = resistance to wind drift) approximately comparable to a .308.

Since you don't handload, .308 has the advantage of having more match ammo available for it than 223 does. I don't know what good long range match ammo there is in Canada (I think that Black Hills in the US makes some ammo with 75 grain match bullets)
 
C9-Gunner said:
it seems to me that the decision is if I want kick ass shots and heavy bullet stability, I should go with the .308
and if I want a cheaper shooting but possible larger drift due to wind factor, I should go with .223?
Click to expand...
Seems about right (though you also mentioned recoil - so choice whether just not want to bother with it (.223), or condition self to it (.308). The 5R may also be heavier than the SPS & Savage you're shooting now which should reduce recoil

May also want to consider the likelihood that you will end up reloading... If you want to see what it entails can send a PM (if you're shooting in Chilliwack you may not be too far from me). If you hunt then .308 reloading gear may be more practical and also reduces the overall cost of .308 (though of course both calibers will both be proportionally cheaper).
 
C9-Gunner said:
it seems to me that the decision is if I want kick ass shots and heavy bullet stability, I should go with the .308
and if I want a cheaper shooting but possible larger drift due to wind factor, I should go with .223?
Click to expand...

No what most are saying here is with the right twist 223 can duplicate the 308 ballistics. Similar ballistic coefficients at similar velocity means similar ballistics.
 
I prefer 308 over 223. Easier to load and shoot. Just me. For those that have developed a flinch from the 308 come shoot my 338 lapua then go right back to the 308. You will find the 308 has the same recoil as the 223. At least that is what I found lol.
 
C9-Gunner said:
thank you so much for all the inputs.

I currently have a Savage 10fp in .308 (I'm a right-hand shooter for side note)
at 100 meters I could put a 10 round group within the size of a quarter. (i'm not sure if that's sufficient enough as a beginner precision shooter.)
Click to expand...

You already own a superb platform to do anything you could possibly want.

have the rifle properly bedded and handload. The accuracy will get better and more consistent.

Then just crank up the scope and head for the horizon.

There is nothing the Rem can do that the Savage will not do for less money.

If recoil is an issue ( I no longer shoot 308), you can put on a different barrel in any chambering that floats you boat.

223 - a new bolt, barrel and you can play as far away as you want.

how about a 6BR?

Or a 6.5

Or one of 150 chamberings.

Please visit my website and look in the rifle tech section. I have a number of articles and rifle builds.

If you look under Barrels, you can see all the various options that you can plug and play with.

You have a wonderful foundation already. With the money spent on a Rem 5R, you can have an AMAZING shooter and keep some money for....

RELOADING EQUIPMENT...

Jerry
 
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