My Lead Smelting Setup

[Andy]

I spent two hours this evening turning an almost 100kg bucket of wheelweights into over 60kg of ingots and decided to take some pics. This is not intended to be a primer on smelting, just shows what I think is a pretty typical and effective setup.

Pic 1 - Wheelbarrow to throw hot waste into, Camp Burner from Lebaron, Stock Pot, Propane Tank

Pic 2 - What you get from the Garage or Tire Store. Mostly Wheelweights, but also paper, rubber, dirt, and the odd Zinc Wheelweight (these are bad - more later). If there is any moisture or oil (i.e. liquids), they must be eliminated before the smelting occurs

Pic 3 - some of the stuff you need to remove beforehand

Pic 4 - Lead is very dense, so all the junk will conveniently float on top, ready to be scooped off with a Ladle Sieve

Pic 5 - a Zinc Wheelweight. These are bad for bullet alloy and must be culled. I used to try to pick them out by hand, but as l was only finding three or four per 100kg, and they are not all as easy to identify as the one in the pic, I found a better way. Zinc has both a higher melting point than Lead (420 deg C vs. 328 deg C), and is only about 2/3 as dense, so if you are careful and keep the temp to about 350-400 deg C, the zinc wheelweights just skim off like this one did.

Pic 6 - Lead with junk skimmed off

Pic 7 - my Dollar Store Utensils. The Ladle Sieve is used to remove the stuff floating on top, and the Soup Ladle is used to pour the molten Lead into my Ingot Mold. A full Ladle weighs about 1 1/2 kg, and first time I scooped lead with it, I couldn't believe how heavy it felt (Lead is 11 1/2 times as dense as water).

Pic 8 - My Ingot Mold. An Aluminum Muffin tin (thanks again Dollar Store). The Aluminum is soft when hot, so it takes some care when handling. I have since changed to steel - much better.

Pic 9 - The finished product. The Ingots are about 4 lbs, 2lbs and 1 lb in weight - good sizes for handling and use.

 

[mouse]

Haha presto bango, its simple! If you have the equipment. Thats so damn neat. What does the finished product look like? A few more pictures and you go from crap to trap.

 

[blindside]

Ya I use your ingot/muffin thing to..The zink has never been a prob. for me. Either I've never had one,which is doubtfull in thousands of pounds, or its just gotten skimmed off with the dross and I didnt notice...Anyhoo loads of fun huh..Getting a consistant sub moa final product is where the bear pooped in the buckwheat though

 

[tiriaq]

A bigger batch makes for greater consistancy, wheelweights probably being less consistant in their alloy than desirable for good shooting bullets.

 

[undertaker]

I have been doing the same for MANY years as well, and I find, the best molds are cast iron ones. Heat em up a but with a torch to get the moisture out, then off you go. So much easier to get the ingot out after. Never sticks.
A large commercial wok is good for doing the melting as well- larger opening in the top to ladle everything out

 

[fogducker]

thanks for the show and tell i believe i picked up a few tips here

 

[nrut]

Hi Andy...do you use cast bullets in any of your 8mm's ?.....reason I ask is that I just acquired a older Bruno in 8X57 and looking forward to shooting cast in it...this is my first 8mm but I have some experience casting bullets....

 

[Levi Garrett]

That sludge is very toxic,be careful not to get it on you, or left in areas where kids play.
Frank

 

[Gibbs505]

Great setup there!! Do you flux at this stage as well?

 

[Andy]

Great setup there!! Do you flux at this stage as well?

I do all my fluxing when I move the ingots to my Lee Production Pot. As I do that indoors, I use Marvellux which does not give off smoke.

 

[Andy]

Hi Andy...do you use cast bullets in any of your 8mm's ?.....reason I ask is that I just acquired a older Bruno in 8X57 and looking forward to shooting cast in it...this is my first 8mm but I have some experience casting bullets....

I shoot plenty of varieties of 8mm (8x50R Hungarian, 8x50R Lebel, 8x52R Siamese, 8x56R Hungarian, 8x57, 8x60R Kropatschek, etc.), which have bores ranging from about 0.323" to 0.330". All I use in my milsurps is cast, mostly gas-checked and I have come to like the Lee Alox Lube and their sizers. I go 2-3 thou over groove diamter, and I have a Lee 323 sizer, a Lyman 325, another 325 I lapped out to 327, and a Lee 329. Those cover it all. With cast you save on powder, bore wear and recoil and they can be accurate.

For the 8x57, the Lee 8mm mold is a good place to start. I have a couple of special order Lee 8mm dies I bought from the States through "MidSouth Reloading Supplies" - the 8mm Maximum, and the 8mm Karabiner. They throw "fat" (325 and 327) and heavy (230 and 245gr) bullets and are my mainstay for most of the 8mm's.

 

[kodiak1]

Nice Show ANDY you put a little time into a very very informative thread and a interesting subject to all that shoot lead bullets. Keep up the good work and have fun.
Ken.

 

[nrut]

I shoot plenty of varieties of 8mm (8x50R Hungarian, 8x50R Lebel, 8x52R Siamese, 8x56R Hungarian, 8x57, 8x60R Kropatschek, etc.), which have bores ranging from about 0.323" to 0.330". All I use in my milsurps is cast, mostly gas-checked and I have come to like the Lee Alox Lube and their sizers. I go 2-3 thou over groove diamter, and I have a Lee 323 sizer, a Lyman 325, another 325 I lapped out to 327, and a Lee 329. Those cover it all. With cast you save on powder, bore wear and recoil and they can be accurate.

For the 8x57, the Lee 8mm mold is a good place to start. I have a couple of special order Lee 8mm dies I bought from the States through "MidSouth Reloading Supplies" - the 8mm Maximum, and the 8mm Karabiner. They throw "fat" (325 and 327) and heavy (230 and 245gr) bullets and are my mainstay for most of the 8mm's.

Thanks Andy....I have seen those molds at Midsouth that you are talking about but have'nt ordered them yet because it is stated in the add that they are for Milsurps........I will be sending a money order south for the 8mm "group buy" on the LEE six banger at www.castboolits.gunloads.com this week....the more I study the 8 mm the more I like it....with heavy cast softnose bullets it should be one heck of a hunting round....cheers mic

 

[gerardjohnson]

For ingot molds, I use the small tinfoil pie plates that come with frozen meat pies etc. You don't have to wory about geting the lead out, you simply peel off the tinfoil. I have the aluminum Lee ingot mold, and the RCBS & Lyman cast Iron molds but seldom use them anymore.

 

[stocker]

Andy: The waste in the wheelbarrow seems to have a lot of metal mixed with the steel clips. If you aren't fluxing it's probable that a lot of the discarded metal is tin which you probably don't want to lose.
I try to scoop off as much of the clips that are floating high (and generally free of melt metal) on the melt as possible to make a bit of room for stirring. Then flux well , stir, skim off more clips with a perforated dipper that has been submerged in the melt until it's very hot so the melt does not cling on the dipper. Shake each dipper full to move any melt through the perforations and back into the pot. After all clips and valve stems etc. are gone I re-flux, stir and skim off other dirt that may have fallen through the perforated dipper. Then into the ingot moulds.

 

[the rifleman]

I've heard that some will use sawdust as a flux, to help raise the garbage to the top, ever heard of that, and does it work?

 

[stocker]

Anything that produces carbon as it smokes/burns off will act as a flux as long as you are stirring the melt. Used motor oil will work for ingot casting and is what I normally use when melting down large amounts of weights. Once in my bullet casting pot I usually stir thouroughly with dry oak strips cut from shop scrap about the size of a painters stir stick. The melt chars the oak and carbon is released from the stick. Softer woods like cedar, pine also work but may burst into flame and the amount of resin and oils in them tend to make a bit of popping and sizzle when you are stirring. Avoid any wood that may have pockets of resin or pitch inside them as they will cause lead to erupt from the pot as they can be released from the wood below the surface of the melt. Or, you can use old candle stubs, the lube that oozes out of your sizer, toilet bowl ring pieces. I used to buy blocks of canning parafin and cut them into small cubes with a band saw when I wanted a whole bunch on hand. Rarely use it now as I like the oak wood better and no flame up or excessive smoke with the oak. Some of these smoke quite a bit and are only suitable for outdoor use.

 

[ckid]

Good thread Andy, I was thinking of showing my set up but I have yet to take pictures of it. I constructed a bottom pour pot out of a piece of 8 inch water well casing and use a tiger torch as a heat source. I figure the pot has about a 200 lb capacity when full. I started using cup cake pans for molds but they didn't seem to stand up to the abuse I was putting them through. I have since constructed my own 6 cavity ingot molds out of 18" long sections of 4" channel iron with pieces of 1 1/2 angle welded in to form the dividers. With 2 people manning the pot it can process 3 full 5 gallon pails of wheel weights per hour.

 

[Rick]

I've heard that some will use sawdust as a flux, to help raise the garbage to the top, ever heard of that, and does it work?

I personally don't know as I've never tried it. I'm not sure I want to go on the assumption that all the remnants of the sawdust are removed with fluxing, however.

Fluxing is a regular discussion topic within the Cast Bullet Association email list. The group includes the crowd that are casting for - and getting - well under sub-MOA in cast bullet benchrest, a metallurgist who makes his living doing nothing but selling alloys and related supplies to bullet casters, and another metallurgist who makes his living turning scrap into commercially cast rifle bullets for the discerning shooter.

With that in mind, I have never heard anyone talk about using sawdust or anything other than some form of paraffin or Marvellux. I'm not saying it doesn't work; I've just never heard anyone on the list talk of going that route. The professional smelters on the list don't seem to think it matters much for the home caster; one of them just buys canning paraffin. Ultimately, good fluxing for cleaning your melt may just as easily come down to your technique rather than what you use.

I really dislike Marvelux as I find it rather hydroscopic and I am fairly obsessed with maintaining a clean casting pot when casting to produce accurate rifle bullets. I have been chided by one of the resident metallurgists as probably using too much Marvelux when fluxing, and he may well be right. However, I have settled on shaved carnuba wax for fluxing my pot with and I love the stuff. Definitely not hydroscopic, seems to work very well, smoke levels are more than acceptable for indoor use, and has a very pleasant smell. Using carnuba wax was something I picked up from the CBA guys and NEI also sells shaved carnuba wax. You can buy what might well be a lifetime supply from them for about $20. I imagine you can find the stuff in fine woodworking supply places as well.

When I am processing wheelweights I flux the hell out of them. I would rather get as much of the dirt out of the melt then, rather than later when it is in my actual casting pot. Cleaner is better.

My general rules of thumb are just enough temperature to melt the WW's, lots and lots of stirring, and lots and lots of fluxing and skimming to get the crud out. I use candle stubs, crayons, canning paraffin, and anything similar for this as it is conducted outdoors and I do a lot of fluxing while cleaning the melt. I call it good when fluxing appears to bring up little or no crud. Some people believe you can flux all the tin out of your alloy if you aren't careful, but the resident metallurgist says this isn't going to happen at standard fluxing temperatures. He's a metallurgist, I'm not, so I take him at his word. And my bullets heat treat just fine, so I assume he's got that part right.

For moulds, I use channel iron cut into lengths with square pieces welded on the end. Sand blasted nice and clean. Cheap, makes great ingot moulds. Just don't leave them out in the wet where they'll get scaley with rust.

To enhance the consistency of my alloy from successive WW smelting episodes, all ingots get a number that day from a magic marker. "2", "3", "4", etc. When charging the pot for a casting session, I mix numbered ingots that go in the pot i.e. a "2", a "3", and a "4" each time the pot needs replenishing. I think that when you are processing a couple of hundred pounds at a time from various time frames and WW manufacturers you are getting a good mix to begin with, and by then mixing the resulting ingots from different sessions together, that just helps even further. Doesn't really take any additional time.

Nicely done series of pictures and explanation for those who are new at WW recovery. BTW, I highly recommend the Cast Bullet Association for those in search of high quality results in casting; the associated e-list is extremely informative and has some of the best bullet casters on the planet on it. No shortage of help should you have a question...

 

[Andy]

I'm still learning (who isn't?), and have made a few adjustments since I posted my setup. Gone are the aluminum muffin trays, replaced with larger steel - aluminum gets too weak when hot and I moved up to 2 lb ingots when I went to a 20 lb Production Pot. I still don't worry too much about Tin loss, as I add 2% anyways, but I do flux a bit more during smelting than before. That having been said, I never did believe that the Tin came out that easily once in solution, and do tend to lean towards the metallurgist's opinion.

I am not at present seeking extreme consistency of bullet composition that I would if I was dedicated to wringing out top accuracy, so I treat all ingots from wheelweights as the same for simplicity's sake, knowing them to differ somewhat. When I do up loads for a Milshoot, I do sort bullets by weight, and with my eyes, my guns, my loads, and my requirements, that's more than sufficient.