My M305 went kaboom

[Savage]

The design of the M14 /M1A /M305/M14S features a an internal design that prevents the firing pin from going into battery in fired /extended position .In simple terms a slam fire with the firing pin jammed forward simply will not happen.
When the bolt cycles to the rear after charging or firing the rifle ,It resets the trigger and as the bolt moves back into battery the firing pin strikes the firing pin bridge safety this is located between the rear sight and the charger guide . This feature resets the firing pin to the rear and if the firing pin is damaged and siezed the bolt will not move forward in to battery.Unless this bridge has been altered or removed the firing pin will always reset to the rear .Remember that this is a Battle rifle and that they included this feature to prevent frozen or stuck firing pins from causing AD's

 

[Claven2]

Except that if it's out of tolerance, it can still happen. Also, soft primers and an unlucky strike of the pin can cause problems.

Finally, single-feeding (i.e. not feeding from the mag) and non-military primers is a huge NO-NO with the M14.

 

[workerunit]

Your bolt is done but the reciever might still be ok "with a new bolt installed"

The bolt is toast, the receiver is suitable for use as a dummy gun, paper weight or maybe a .22LR conversion.

My opinion, and worth every penny that was paid for it.

 

[landcruiserguy]

Your quite right about the case length (doh!), I had never really thought about it. I'll PM the dude that did it. To pose the question for clarity on my part - upon undoing the gas lock, is it normal to be able to grasp the remaining gas cylinder and pull it forward along the barrel towards the flash hider?

I am the dude. My measurements refer to the size of the case sitting in a sinclare cartridge headspace gauge. Obviously that measurement includes the size of the gauge as well as the case so can't be compared directly to a headspace measurement you read on the internets. What it does tell you is the expansion of the case between fired and unfired. As beavis said his rifle was about .5mm (20 thou) whereas in my older bolt action it's .25mm/10 thou and my old mans kimber montana is about half that again.

So in summary it had large but typical for all the other m305's I have measured headspacing.

 

[powmia56]

The bolt is toast, the receiver is suitable for use as a dummy gun, paper weight or maybe a .22LR conversion.

My opinion, and worth every penny that was paid for it.

So now my curiosity is piqued. You have posted six times in six years and most of them have been a single comment about a catastrophic failure. If you have the knowledge to comment with authority on these failures, how come you don't post up some of your other knowledge to help us here on CGN as we debate and discuss everything related to this rifle. I'd love to hear more from you.

 

[beavis_m305]

I am the dude. My measurements refer to the size of the case sitting in a sinclare cartridge headspace gauge. Obviously that measurement includes the size of the gauge as well as the case so can't be compared directly to a headspace measurement you read on the internets. What it does tell you is the expansion of the case between fired and unfired. As beavis said his rifle was about .5mm (20 thou) whereas in my older bolt action it's .25mm/10 thou and my old mans kimber montana is about half that again.

So in summary it had large but typical for all the other m305's I have measured headspacing.

Thanks for clarifying massive. Well it's being sent back to the shop to see if they'll warranty it. If not well i guess I've got a bunch of M14 parts...

 

[landcruiserguy]

Are you not sending it to gunworks? I think under the circumstances you will get your money back despite reloaders being their usual gruff self. Reloaders will just replace it whereas gunworks will tell you why it went kaboom which will be useful info to know for safe operation in the future.

 

[workerunit]

So now my curiosity is piqued. You have posted six times in six years and most of them have been a single comment about a catastrophic failure. If you have the knowledge to comment with authority on these failures, how come you don't post up some of your other knowledge to help us here on CGN as we debate and discuss everything related to this rifle. I'd love to hear more from you.

What would you like to know??
As for me, I currently own several M14 type rifles, most of them are based on Chinese receivers. I have done USGI bolt and/or USGI or Civilian barrel conversions on most of them. I do all the work myself. I do not do conversions for others, I am not a gunsmith, or a military armorer. I have about 30 years of experience as a mechanic and I do know a little bit about how machines are supposed to work.

If my very limited experience or opinion is not appreciated or wanted here I can always just keep my fingers quiet, but as far as civilian semi auto M14's go, I do have some, limited, experience with them and I would imagine that someone may benefit my limited knowledge of these rifles.

I am very, very sure that there are many others out here that have far greater experience with the M14 than I, and will have much more learned responses for whatever question may arise. Whatever I may post is just my opinion and worth what was paid for it.

As far as my comment about the bolt and receiver damage, it is my opinion (based on the photograghs) that they have received to much damage and metal displacement on critical areas to be returned to the service that they were built for.

 

[lcardinal]

Guru,s

What would you like to know??
As for me, I currently own several M14 type rifles, most of them are based on Chinese receivers. I have done USGI bolt and/or USGI or Civilian barrel conversions on most of them. I do all the work myself. I do not do conversions for others, I am not a gunsmith, or a military armorer. I have about 30 years of experience as a mechanic and I do know a little bit about how machines are supposed to work.

If my very limited experience or opinion is not appreciated or wanted here I can always just keep my fingers quiet, but as far as civilian semi auto M14's go, I do have some, limited, experience with them and I would imagine that someone may benefit my limited knowledge of these rifles.

I am very, very sure that there are many others out here that have far greater experience with the M14 than I, and will have much more learned responses for whatever question may arise. Whatever I may post is just my opinion and worth what was paid for it.

As far as my comment about the bolt and receiver damage, it is my opinion (based on the photograghs) that they have received to much damage and metal displacement on critical areas to be returned to the service that they were built for.

I agree with you, too much damage. Don,t take the flaming from these internet guru,s too seriosly, most were still a gleam in daddy,s eye when the M-14 was issued, or maybe they have daddy issues or whatever. The chinese steel is superior, but the timing on most receivers is out of spec,combine with a smaller heel on chicom firing pin does cause slamfires. Anybody using POW-MIA as a handle had better be a nam vet I would like to see his DD-214

 

[Savage]

As far as my comment about the bolt and receiver damage, it is my opinion (based on the photograghs) that they have received to much damage and metal displacement on critical areas to be returned to the service that they were built for.

He is correct the reciever and bolt are essentialy scrap metal .We only see the damage that is visible the other concern is that the bolt also smacked hard on the reciever heel this can cause critical metal fatigage in the reciever .

 

[M14Doctor]

been offline for several days and just caught up with this thread.
I will never use American Eagle ammo in my m14 rifle period.
I had the exact same experince as the OP in this thread but was lucky enought to have caught it before blowing the rifle up.
in my case, the rifle chambered the first round... fired, chambered the second, fired...... appeared to chamber the third, pulled the trigger and nuthin ....... waited the gratuitous minute for a dud/hangfire and extracted by hand, letting the oprod fly home on round number 4 ....... pulled trigger....... nuthin ...... repeat hangfire process and chambered the 5 round......... hammer drops and again nuthin.

inspect the 3 rounds.... light primer strikes .... but the wierd thing is the neck deformation on each one...... only then does the light go on and i peer into the chamber and see exactly what the OP shows in his pic ..... a hunk o brass left in the chamber and on the ground , soure enough is a .308 case that looks like a .45 case hehehe

I realized right there how stupid it was of me to keep racking that oprod and how close i was to an incident as shown in this thread.

In my professional opinion, I would absolutely suspect the ammo in this instance.
American Eagle is the bargain basement side of Federal ammunition co. and in my opinion thier 7.62 x 39 and .308 brass is too thin and brittle for use in semi auto rifles.
federal powershock has a zero failure rate in any m14 type rifle i've shot it in, regardless of import year and headspace measurement.

 

[M14Doctor]

I agree with you, too much damage. Don,t take the flaming from these internet guru,s too seriosly, most were still a gleam in daddy,s eye when the M-14 was issued, or maybe they have daddy issues or whatever. The chinese steel is superior, but the timing on most receivers is out of spec,combine with a smaller heel on chicom firing pin does cause slamfires. Anybody using POW-MIA as a handle had better be a nam vet I would like to see his DD-214

Powmia56 is a Gulf war veteran, I know him personally and he is highly repsected in the circles i spin in I don't think his comment was meant to start a battle hehehe

as for commenting on these rifles in general and hypothesizing on why this rifle had this particular issue, and stating that these rifles have out of spc timing and smaller firing pin heels which cause slam fires........ where does this come from? not trying to be brash nor spark the debates, but i'll say hawg wash

it is not a common occurence for these chinese rifles to slam fire or fire out of battery.
MOST , and hard to find one that does not, have receiver safety bridges machined and hardened within the USGI drawing specifications. Firing pins interchanged from USGI bolt to chinese bolts on rifles imported in the last 10 years , pass protrusion tests and pin overall length guages. same goes for swapping the chinese firing pin to the usgi bolt. This is all relative to the actual bolt's firing pin hole diameter being within tolerance, again, chinese bolts pass just fine.

every rifle across my bench for the past year and a half has had it's receiver guaged using genuine USGI guages that check every critical funtion of the receiver. None have failed and we are talking in excess of 175 rifles in under 18 months.

perhaps there was some foreign matter in the chamber, perhaps it is indeed crappy, thin walled brittle brassed ammo....... and in the event that this happened with a reloaded round in the pipe.....

anyone with true M14 riflesmithing experience will tell you..... reloaded ammunition is the number one cause of catostrophic failures in these rifles, the second is crappy ammunition

 

[beavis_m305]

M14doc - A shooter on another forum told me he had issues with American Eagle in his '305 as well. Some of his cases were showing cracks after the first firing.

 

[M14Doctor]

M14doc - A shooter on another forum told me he had issues with American Eagle in his '305 as well. Some of his cases were showing cracks after the first firing.

yup
my first experience with AE 7.62x39 in an otherwise flawlessly functioning sks, back in '90 , was the same situation we describe here. seperated case ruined the day as we had no extraction tool handy at the time. inspection of fired cases on the ground showed obvious case failures in the form of bulging and cracking near the base.
In my opinion, AE ammo is just not worth the cardboard box it's sold in when it comes to the m14 platform..... i'm sure there are many who will disagree or flame on as it works fine in thier rifles, but i'll steer clear

 

[beavis_m305]

yup
my first experience with AE 7.62x39 in an otherwise flawlessly functioning sks, back in '90 , was the same situation we describe here. seperated case ruined the day as we had no extraction tool handy at the time. inspection of fired cases on the ground showed obvious case failures in the form of bulging and cracking near the base.
In my opinion, AE ammo is just not worth the cardboard box it's sold in when it comes to the m14 platform..... i'm sure there are many who will disagree or flame on as it works fine in thier rifles, but i'll steer clear

I tell you what man, it is a real piss off situation. I went to the gun shop and bought ammo marked .308 to shoot through my rifle marked .308, for a bit of fun on a Sunday afternoon. Now my .308 rifle is forked and all I might end up getting out of it is a bunch of spare m14 parts. Oh well. At least i still have hands.

 

[powmia56]

I agree with you, too much damage. Don,t take the flaming from these internet guru,s too seriosly, most were still a gleam in daddy,s eye when the M-14 was issued, or maybe they have daddy issues or whatever. The chinese steel is superior, but the timing on most receivers is out of spec,combine with a smaller heel on chicom firing pin does cause slamfires. Anybody using POW-MIA as a handle had better be a nam vet I would like to see his DD-214

For one thing I wasn't flaming him, I was asking for more input on the board. I love it when people who have worked on these extensively come on here and post up their knowledge. If someone has enough experience to tell when a receiver is junked and non-reparable, they may have enough experience to help us out in other areas. I was just wondering why he didn't come on more and share. Ask anyone on this board who has been around for a while, I don't flame.

Second, talking about flaming, I ask a guy to share his knowledge and you jump back on and slag my knowledge and my background, knowing nothing about me.

Thirdly, I am a Gulf War veteran, I am actively involved in veteran's issues, I have a lot of friends who are Vietnam veterans, and there are 56 POW-MIAs missing from the State of Washington (my home state) from the Vietnam conflict. Ask and I'm happy to tell you the source of my handle.

Finally, welcome to the discussion, workerunit. Hope to see you here more. There are tons of interesting discussions about the operation, repair, and maintenance of these rifles. We put on regular clinics to teach people about their rifles. (for free, btw). Would be cool if you were ever up this way and could attend a clinic. It's all about sharing the knowledge.

Now, back to the discussion.

 

[Brobee]

As an aside, I can't help but want to address one of the "evils" of the type of discussion we regularly have round here:

In the past when the first batches of these rifles were hitting the shores and there was a large amount of enthusiasm (which I shared and still do) towards how cool they were, there were other threads where I've argued that long headspace could both cause some of the issues discussed in this thread (the case-head separation described by M14Doc) and be dangerous (ie: after case head separation the gun still has the ability to partially chamber and possibly fire another round, despite the bolt not being properly in battery). In fact, when I was first experiencing the M14 style rifle I created a thread here on CGN specifically looking for discussion on the possible inherent dangers associated with both tight and long headspace in these types of guns. (I went to look for the thread, however I think it was before the database reset).

Anyway, the result was that I was pretty much dismissed as an ignorant and annoying child by other forum "experts" who would not debate, but rather would fall back on their status as "seasoned experienced veterans with high post counts" who were insulted you would even dare to politely question their position. As we live in a free country and people are entitled to their own opinions and the soap box upon which they rant about them, it made me roll my eyes a bit as I went away to post less but play more with my M14 type rifles.

Anyway, I'm glad the original poster was not injured, and as more and more of these types of incidents come to light I hope it gets more people thinking about how the rifle works and what are the pitfalls to avoid.

Cheers,

Brobee

 

[Savage]

Jason I agree with you about headspacing the real issue lies with commercail ammunition it can have a wide tolerance from lot to lot and still be with in SAMMI spec while military ammunition is held to a much higher spec .The miltary casing are heavier with reinforced webs ,thicker walls on the casing for a reason .It increases the user's survivabilty whan a catastrohic failur occurs. We have been fortunate that no one has been seriously injured

 

[Claven2]

As an aside, I can't help but want to address one of the "evils" of the type of discussion we regularly have round here:

In the past when the first batches of these rifles were hitting the shores and there was a large amount of enthusiasm (which I shared and still do) towards how cool they were, there were other threads where I've argued that long headspace could both cause some of the issues discussed in this thread (the case-head separation described by M14Doc) and be dangerous (ie: after case head separation the gun still has the ability to partially chamber and possibly fire another round, despite the bolt not being properly in battery). In fact, when I was first experiencing the M14 style rifle I created a thread here on CGN specifically looking for discussion on the possible inherent dangers associated with both tight and long headspace in these types of guns. (I went to look for the thread, however I think it was before the database reset).

Anyway, the result was that I was pretty much dismissed as an ignorant and annoying child by other forum "experts" who would not debate, but rather would fall back on their status as "seasoned experienced veterans with high post counts" who were insulted you would even dare to politely question their position. As we live in a free country and people are entitled to their own opinions and the soap box upon which they rant about them, it made me roll my eyes a bit as I went away to post less but play more with my M14 type rifles.

Anyway, I'm glad the original poster was not injured, and as more and more of these types of incidents come to light I hope it gets more people thinking about how the rifle works and what are the pitfalls to avoid.

Cheers,

Brobee

FWIW, back when we could have GI M14's, they typically had WORSE headspace than we see on the Norincos. True, GI bolts have longer lugs than Chinese bolts and when a GI bolt fits in a Norc receiver, you often get match headspace just like that, but GI receiver lugs are machined further back and the loose headspace is a battlefield feature.

When you use thick NATO brass and fight in the mud, you want it to be loosey goosey.

I'm not saying the AE ammo caused this failure, but the M14 with factory headspace was NOT designed for use with commercial ammo.

I do fire commercial in mine, but I have SAAMI minimum headspace and a GI bolt.

 

[RememberTheSomme]

Great comments from all posters.

Question still largely unanswered here.

Lots of reasons why action was out of battery.

What was the last thing in chain of regrets, that caused the firing of the round?

If the hammer was not allowed to fall by the shooter ,what fired the round. In Battery, out of Battery, what fired the round?? If firing pin not protruding fixed like an SMG pin, what allowed round to fire?
Back to one of my threads.

Primer cups too soft for the inertia of the firing pins on the 100mph to zero stop, regardless of why it is stoppng and where in "space and time" it is stopping. I've pieced primers by these rifles on commercial .308WIN primers and I want CCI 34 from now on. I spoke with the Gentleman today whos handloading for me till I set my press up again on this very issue of primers and its 34 or broke for me. I believe this catastrophy would not have occurred with Mil-spec primers unless it was a full hammer strike initiated by the shooter on a partially closed bolt. We have NATO chambers and firing pins strong enough to deal with NATO cups(causing occasional pieced .308WIN primers),free floating pins sent home with much haste from a strong recoil spring, but we mostly use commecial .308 WIN ammo, and these days to stay competetive seems everything is thinner(primer cups/bullet jackets etc etc) to be cheaper.
I'm impressed with the old chinese manual telling me not to use commercial .308WIN ammo, the more I read this thread.

Great point made by Brobee and M14Doc of rifle being able to partially chamber and fire a round after a partial case left from separation, but unless shooter lets hammer fall, primer should not fire from firing pin strike of chambering a round.

I may use .308WIN commercial for 5000rds and never have this happen but how close am I to it happening ever time I fire if the ammo is cheap or separates from repeatedly fired handloads in a dirty, sticky chamber.

And has the Doc stated he shouldn't have kept doing the stoppage drill and firing repeatedly but, we will all squeeze on an auto chambered round once, when aiming at a target, unbeknowing of a separation stuck in the chamber from thin walled cases that the strong extractor will remove , in whole or in part.

On a lighter note, I was firing over my new Garand sights today at 200 meters, and I absolutely love this Rifle!!