My Swiss Arms Story: UPDATE Post#162, My Theory on the Extraction Issues

Steve the frustration is easily understandable.
Like everyone else here we kind of treat this as an immediate action, no one is happy until you are back shooting.

If anything I have been taught by shooting, it is as much a community event as it is an individual event. While I consider myself more of abrass maker rather than as a target shooter, I love this sport as much for the people I have met and who have taught me, as for how I may perform or from the satisfaction of what I build or solve. I only hope to be as supportive of others as they have been to me.

If there is disappointment in me or others, it is only the fact that we could not have been there to help you out on the spot in helping to determine the problem.

Thankfully there are other rifles that need loving in the meantime.
Do please keep everyone posted.
 
I had the exact same problem with my Black Special.

It was failing to eject 1-2 rounds out of 10 consistently. The case would become pinched in the action at 90 degrees, 180 degrees, or even one freak one where the case head got pinched against the front of the ejection port and the case mouth against my charging handle....melting it. I had noticed ejections seemed weak for the ones that ejected successfully. Occasionally this would happen in such a way that it damaged the next round as it was being chambered.

The first thing I looked at was my NEA lower. I did some research and found no similar issues. I do not have my factory Swiss lower so I'd have to do some leg work to find a factory one to try anyway. But since I found no other similar complaints it went to the bottom of the priority list.

Next I ordered a crapload of new AR magazines (NEA lower, remember). Until that point, I was only using LAR-15 mags. The problem remained with 5/30 and 5/20 mags of various brands and materials.

Next I shelved the AE Tactical .223 I had been using and tried some S&B 5.56 instead. Problem solved! No issues so far using this ammo. I did notice that there is a huge difference between the condition of the brass between the Federal AE stuff and the S&B. The AE is VERY dirty brass and the S&B stuff is well-polished and shiny.

I must also ask how do you lube your firearm? Do you oil or grease? Excessive grease could cause your action to slow down.

Anyway, try S&B 5.56 ammo. Worked for me. Hope this helps.
 
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Jäger said:
I must also ask how do you lube your firearm? Do you oil or grease? Excessive grease could cause your action to slow down.

Anyway, try S&B 5.56 ammo. Worked for me. Hope this helps.
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I use have tried using both oil and grease and the malfunction still occurs

I also have a piece of rubber torn off my charging handle from where a case hit it, i believe it would have been in the same fasion as you described except mine didn't melt it sliced it like cheese with the sharp part of the case mouth. Yours is literally doing the exact same thing as mine. How often does it occur when shoot AE? and whats your round count for that rifle, if you know that is???

Also, I found that the malfunction happened more often with the AE .223 however it happened with other ammo too. I found that some brass seemed softer than others, the softer cases had deeper double dents and jammed more Quite simply, this is a Swiss Arms rifle, I shouldn't have to buy only S&B ammo to make it work, what happens when there's no more S&B. It should eat EVERYTHING i feed it as long as it's 5.56/.223 and yours should too. It's interesting to hear that your rifle is doing this too, perhaps when I figure out whats happening with mine, you can get yours fixed too.
 
Steve, Marcus is from Switzerland, worked on 550's in Ch and knows them inside and out. Beltfeds suggestion was a great one. In this case Marcus is likely the most expert on the platform in Canada. I too would only take mine to Marcus if I needed help.


Your best clue is the gun functions well on second port setting. Dead give away in fact.
 
Steve Janes said:
I also have a piece of rubber torn off my charging handle from where a case hit it, i believe it would have been in the same fasion as you described except mine didn't melt it sliced it like cheese with the sharp part of the case mouth. Yours is literally doing the exact same thing as mine. How often does it occur when shoot AE? and whats your round count for that rifle, if you know that is???
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About 1-2 times out of 10. I bought the rifle second hand. The previous owner claimed only 200 rounds down the pipe and the malfunction occurred in the first magazine I put into it.

Also, I found that the malfunction happened more often with the AE .223 however it happened with other ammo too. I found that some brass seemed softer than others, the softer cases had deeper double dents and jammed more Quite simply, this is a Swiss Arms rifle, I shouldn't have to buy only S&B ammo to make it work, what happens when there's no more S&B. It should eat EVERYTHING i feed it as long as it's 5.56/.223 and yours should too. It's interesting to hear that your rifle is doing this too, perhaps when I figure out whats happening with mine, you can get yours fixed too.
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You're right. Since the round count is so low on my gun I assumed it was still breaking in and would improve over time. We'll see. I barely have 300 through it.

I knew it couldn't be the ejector because if I popped a snap cap in the chamber and pulled back on the charging handle the thing would fly out with authority (does yours?), Yours is likely short-stroking for some reason, which is why the problem is alleviated on gas setting #2. Personally, I never tried using #2 because I had a brain fart and forgot it was adjustable... But it's so curious because your gun is definitely broken in.

For now I'm happy with the ammo selection solution, and I'll report back in this thread once I've put all 1,000 S&B 5.56 through it and try a few other brands of .223 and 5.56 again. I'm going to stick with my theory that the gun is still teething so, if that's the case, after another few hundred rounds it should be broken in nicely. If it's a stiff action spring....maybe I'll lock the bolt back for a few days and see if that loosens it up a bit.

I just feel it can't be the ejector since it ejects positively using a snap cap and empty cases to test, and I doubt the Swiss let too many easily measurable out of spec parts leave the factory (such as out of spec gas ports).

Maybe try dumping some solvent down the gas port?

Oh and how heavy is the ammo you're using? The GP-90 is 63gr if memory serves. Try getting your hands on some 62gr .223. I think SFRC has some reasonably priced (http://www.theammosource.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_108_109&products_id=616). The heavier projectile will yield higher gas pressures acting upon the action. When I bought mine, the seller specifically stated that the rifle liked heavier ammunition.
 
It's pressure that causes the gun to cycle. Just the right amount of gas is taken from the barrel and redirected into the gas tube which pushes the piston back, the piston spring then returns the bolt to closed position and readies the gun to fire. When you move to the second position you increase the gas pressure in the piston tube enough to overcome whatever unwanted resistance is present and is causing the malfunctions. Break it down. What can cause reduced gas pressures? It's obviously not over pressured because it works on 2 it's under pressured. So you either have impeded gas flow, or you have resistance in the bcg. Thats pretty much it.
 
Jäger said:
If it's a stiff action spring....maybe I'll lock the bolt back for a few days and see if that loosens it up a bit.

Maybe try dumping some solvent down the gas port?
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Locking the bolt back will do nothing to break in the spring, springs wear by being cycled not staying static. Cycle your gun while watching tv if you want to break in the spring

The best way to clean your gas port is to use wipeout foam bore cleaner. The little ports must be cleaned with little wires that you can poke through and really clean them well. Wipeout softens the copper fouling. Once you clean the gas system out with wipeout, which is also a rust inhibitor do not lube it. The gas system should remain dry, any lube turns to carbon quickly and fouls things fast. You can lube the spring with something like ezzox or breakfree clp more as a rust inhibitor than anything and very lightly. Both of tose lubes go on wet but end up drying
 
Jäger said:
About 1-2 times out of 10. I bought the rifle second hand. The previous owner claimed only 200 rounds down the pipe and the malfunction occurred in the first magazine I put into it.
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Dude, I would want that guys balls, he sold you a bung rifle. Period Plain and Simple, man I knew I could've done that, but the smile on my face was when I got my swiss was such that I knew how horrible it would be to sell someone a broken 3000 dollar rifle. What an #######, that below low IMO. You know he knew it was buggered to, first mag. That sux man.



Jäger said:
Maybe try dumping some solvent down the gas port?
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I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Swiss smith at the Edge actually took apart the entire gas block and detail cleaned the whole thing, he then tried with an entirely knew gas block. Did you read the OP?

Jäger said:
I'm going to stick with my theory that the gun is still teething
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For your sake I wish you were right, but Swiss Arms rifles do not do this very often if ever, and so I believe your wrong about the "teething" unfortunately. There is something wrong with your rifle and it sux, I tried everything excuse I could to justify it, teething, under loaded cases, american eagle in general, but then it started doing it so much, I had no excuse left. I feel your pain and I hear where your hoping it is something simple is coming from, but I suggest you follow the thread closely and as soon as I have a fix you send yours off and have the same thing done because it's only a matter of time.
 
dizzy said:
It's pressure that causes the gun to cycle. Just the right amount of gas is taken from the barrel and redirected into the gas tube which pushes the piston back, the piston spring then returns the bolt to closed position and readies the gun to fire. When you move to the second position you increase the gas pressure in the piston tube enough to overcome whatever unwanted resistance is present and is causing the malfunctions. Break it down. What can cause reduced gas pressures? It's obviously not over pressured because it works on 2 it's under pressured. So you either have impeded gas flow, or you have resistance in the bcg. Thats pretty much it.
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Interesting you mention this.

As I said before I bought a Classic Green to use while the Black Special is away, and as soon as I got it I felt the recoil was a bit heavier than the Black Special, only slightly but still different, and you'd think I'd know the recoil on my gun after 5000 rounds in a year.

Anyway, if the recoil on the Green rifle is more like what I should get on a swiss arms, then the light recoil on gas setting 1 with the black special is the problem, why it is happening is another thing all together

Good thinking, thank you
 
Steve Janes said:
Dude, I would want that guys balls, he sold you a bung rifle. Period Plain and Simple, man I knew I could've done that, but the smile on my face was when I got my swiss was such that I knew how horrible it would be to sell someone a broken 3000 dollar rifle. What an a**hole, that below low IMO. You know he knew it was buggered to, first mag. That sux man.
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I edited my previous post to include he said it preferred heavier bullets. He may have put only 77gr through it for all I know. He was a stand-up guy, a family man, and we met up at his house for the exchange. I refuse to believe he knowingly sold me a rifle with issues.


I mentioned earlier in the thread, the Swiss smith at the Edge actually took apart the entire gas block and detail cleaned the whole thing, he then tried with an entirely knew gas block. Did you read the OP?
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Yes I did, and then I read the other 50 posts and forgot a few details from the first :p.


For your sake I wish you were right, but Swiss Arms rifles do not do this very often if ever, and so I believe your wrong about the "teething" unfortunately. There is something wrong with your rifle and it sux, I tried everything excuse I could to justify it, teething, under loaded cases, american eagle in general, but then it started doing it so much, I had no excuse left. I feel your pain and I hear where your hoping it is something simple is coming from, but I suggest you follow the thread closely and as soon as I have a fix you send yours off and have the same thing done because it's only a matter of time.
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I hope I'm right too:D. Please refer back up to my previous post for an edit referring to heavier ammunition. Worth a try. I still know what you're saying though...you shouldn't have to be too picky with ammo. It's a service rifle and every other SAN owner is putting whatever through their guns with no issues to report.

After I'm confident the gun is broken in I'll abandon that theory. I only put AE .223 in it and found there was an issue. I switched to S&B 5.56 and there's no more issue. I have not put any other type of ammunition through the gun. I just got a case of MFS 55gr hollow points.... I'll give them a try and see if I run into the same problems. But if it's just the AE.... my gun just probably hates it. That's not terribly uncommon. So I'm not ready to move on to broken parts and factory defects just yet when it's only one type of ammunition I've experienced failures with.

There are a number of potential causes in our case I think. Some no longer are potential causes.

- Gun not broken in
- Gun not lubricated correctly
- Gas port obstruction
- Gas port out of spec
- Broken ejector
- Out of spec action spring
- Out of spec receiver
- Out of spec BCG
- Bad extractor
- Bad mags
- Bad ammo
- Bad luck?

Who knows. I'll be definitely following this thread closely.
 
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Steve Janes said:
I use have tried using both oil and grease and the malfunction still occurs

I also have a piece of rubber torn off my charging handle from where a case hit it, i believe it would have been in the same fasion as you described except mine didn't melt it sliced it like cheese with the sharp part of the case mouth. Yours is literally doing the exact same thing as mine. How often does it occur when shoot AE? and whats your round count for that rifle, if you know that is???

Also, I found that the malfunction happened more often with the AE .223 however it happened with other ammo too. I found that some brass seemed softer than others, the softer cases had deeper double dents and jammed more Quite simply, this is a Swiss Arms rifle, I shouldn't have to buy only S&B ammo to make it work, what happens when there's no more S&B. It should eat EVERYTHING i feed it as long as it's 5.56/.223 and yours should too. It's interesting to hear that your rifle is doing this too, perhaps when I figure out whats happening with mine, you can get yours fixed too.
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FWIW My Swiss has an NEA lower and I have zero problems.
 
I just read this entire thread. I especially enjoyed the people asking how the gun works, since they have no experience with it, so they can solve the problem.

I have nothing useful to add.
 
I didn't read the whole thread, but I read the first post. I wonder how the Swiss would solve the problem.

I mean, if you swap out all the parts on the rifle and it's still acting up does that mean it's no longer and gun and now a computer?
 
cancer said:
I didn't read the whole thread, but I read the first post. I wonder how the Swiss would solve the problem.

I mean, if you swap out all the parts on the rifle and it's still acting up does that mean it's no longer and gun and now a computer?
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IMO if the gun is dead then I should get a new one....I don't think it's dead, just in need of a fix. Here's hoping.
 
Except that I'm sure it would get kiboshed by admin, we should start a pool and we can all armchair guess what the problem is, and then we will let the Swiss diagnose it and we'll split the $$ with OP.

:D
 
I haven't seen yet anyone post what the SwissArms warranty is. Is it a lifetime warranty?

Being the Ugly American that I am I would send it back and demand they replace it with Stgw57 immediately. :rockOn: (Or we will invade their little country, take all their holy cheese, neat little army knives and nuke the rest.)

The Schweiz don't know how to design a firearm. I have three bolt action guns from them that totally suck. I can't get the bolts to lift up to cycle a round. They are broken! I have to pull straight back to get the action open obviously a flawed unsafe design. :bsFlag: If ever a fiream needed a John M. Browning makeover my M1911 and K31s are it. I should know my ancestors emigrated from that stink hole country a century ago. :p
 
I noticed both users mentioned they have issues with the black export variants. Could this be a connection? Perhaps the the black ones are are made tighter and with diffrent QC standards for the civilian market, thus compromising its reliability compared to the green variants and original military cousins.

Just a theory.
 
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