My thinking for a first hunting rifle

[tactical lever]

I'll see your Finnish plastic and raise you American walnut and blued steel.

That's a nice one. Something you could pass down generations.

And lest anyone think I'm anti-Tikka; I'm not. I do have one; but it's an old one made with real steel and wood.

 

[Demonical]

People give you so much 'advice' on what to buy, based off SOME GOOD INFO, SOME PERSONAL BIAS...

But there's nothing like actually handling the rifles.

When I bought my first rifle, I literally went through every rifle they had on the rack, until it came to an absolutely hideous Remington M700 ADL in .30-06.
This was in 1980, and if you know what the ADL looked like then, it had a retarded gloss varnish finish, blind magazine, Monte Carlo cheek piece, pressed checkering etc...

And it was the LAST rifle on the gun rack.

But when I shouldered it, I immediately knew this was the rifle to buy. I fit me like a glove.

I still have that rifle today, arguably my favorite rifle.

Bonus being that it's in the single greatest best all-around cartridge ever... .30-06.

 

[tactical lever]

The model 70 offers more then just a control round feed over the Tikka. It's got an integral recoil lug machined into the receiver instead of a insert. The Bell and Carlson stock is an improvement, that also comes bedded from the factory the Tikka's does not come bedded. The Classic Mauser styled bolt is jeweled creating a smoother and better performing action (Though it is still 90 degree over a 60 degree bolt throw). It's three position safety is also an improvement, allowing one to use the bolt while keeping the firearm on safe. It's also got a one peace metal trigger guard/magazine plate instead of plastic. With an integrally built magazine instead of a plastic removable one. Which IMO when hunting is superior to both the handling of the firearm when walking bush as well as adding zero possible chances of loosing your magazine. Overall it's a better firearm, though it is more expensive and it commands a higher price point due to it. Really there is nothing wrong with a Tikka T3x, but if he's going to eventually replace the stock etc.. Then IMO going with a model that all ready has all the improvements he's going to do, right out the gate from factory seems like the way to go. The Tikka wins on price, and it's a fine firearm in it's price range but it doesn't win on price when you start adding on the price of upgrades, like a new stock and a bedding job, as well as the tax's and shipping costs to do so. Why waste time, and money on improving a cheaper firearm when one exists right off the shelf with all of the improvements most hunters would do to a T3x. I say save on time, taxes and shipping by buying it right the first time.

I agree. That Winchester safety is far superior safety to most. What I appreciate about them, is the way it holds the striker. A mere trigger block safety does nothing to mitigate a slipped sear.

Also really like controlled round feed. I have trouble understanding people that don't see it as an advantage. Push feeds work fine also, and CRF actions are unique to bolt actions, and I really don't have an issue with relying on a lever action for example which is really a type of push feed. But in a bolt action where I have the choice, there's no denying that a full length fixed extractor is stronger, has more extraction "power", and much less likely to fail at some point. And also strongly prefer the CRF for possible dangerous game, and generally like the little bit extra control that a true CRF gun has over chambering. Probably not a big deal, but it's my preference.

The OP, made mention of an end of the world type gun, and to me, it's hard not to consider the Mauser 96, M98, and the clones among the very best for longevity. My guns with these actions are probably at the youngest, near 60 years old, and the oldest one is over 120 years old. Made with good Swedish steel, it's still a good shooter, and I'd imagine it could still be around and serviceable to see a quarter of a millennium.

 

[tactical lever]

People give you so much 'advice' on what to buy, based off SOME GOOD INFO, SOME PERSONAL BIAS...

But there's nothing like actually handling the rifles.

When I bought my first rifle, I literally went through every rifle they had on the rack, until it came to an absolutely hideous Remington M700 ADL in .30-06.
This was in 1980, and if you know what the ADL looked like then, it had a retarded gloss varnish finish, blind magazine, Monte Carlo cheek piece, pressed checkering etc...

And it was the LAST rifle on the gun rack.

But when I shouldered it, I immediately knew this was the rifle to buy. I fit me like a glove.

I still have that rifle today, arguably my favorite rifle.

Bonus being that it's in the single greatest best all-around cartridge ever... .30-06.

That's good advice. Some say those were some of the best Remingtons made. Didn't realize the ADL were so base, but always like the looks of the CDL. But they were still 700 just like the "cheap" Winchester 70 that could be picked up at hardware stores with the "Ranger" (IIRC) model name. Good cartridge too. Still hard to beat, and available with heavy 220 RN, for bigger, tougher game. Much preferable to extreme speed light weights IMO.

One of the nice things about varnished wood, is cleaning it all off and putting a better looking, less shiny finish on it. And perhaps smoothing out some of the uglier styles of the period, while you're at it.

 

[tactical lever]

Whoever mentioned the Sako 90 Peak has ruined me haha. Figures that the rifle that checks all the boxes would be $4400.

Looks pretty fancy! But you really don't need to spend that kind of money to get a good gun. I've spent a 10th of that on good guns on occasion. As another poster said, go handle some, and see if some friends have similar guns you can shoot. What is it that you like most about the Sako? Light weight? Don't really need an ultra-light synthetic stock to be light. I have a 9.3x62 Mauser action rifle, all steel and wood with I think a 23" barrel, that is only 6.7 lbs. bare. A tad light at times!

 

[Mogulrider]

I wouldn't go higher than 308. As a new shooter you need to practice trigger pull. You go to powerful you can develop the dreaded "twitch"
Even 308 may be a slight heavy. But it depends on your character.
I start all my family on 22LR, 22-250. 350 Legend and 243's. I've used 350L and 243 (47 years) to take tons of deer and bear.
350 Legend hammers these game animals. They key is confidence.
Under 10lb recoil and not eeath shattering.
Had great success with the grandkids using this idea.
They have solid trigger fundamentals and then gradute to whatever they like.
Just my 2 thoughts. If you are hunting yoru trigger work is essential for ethical kills.
Accuracy increases confidence.

 

[357Maximum]

People give you so much 'advice' on what to buy, based off SOME GOOD INFO, SOME PERSONAL BIAS...

But there's nothing like actually handling the rifles.

When I bought my first rifle, I literally went through every rifle they had on the rack, until it came to an absolutely hideous Remington M700 ADL in .30-06.
This was in 1980, and if you know what the ADL looked like then, it had a retarded gloss varnish finish, blind magazine, Monte Carlo cheek piece, pressed checkering etc...

And it was the LAST rifle on the gun rack.

But when I shouldered it, I immediately knew this was the rifle to buy. I fit me like a glove.

I still have that rifle today, arguably my favorite rifle.

Bonus being that it's in the single greatest best all-around cartridge ever... .30-06.

CLOSEST TO THE PIN SO FAR

Lot's of experince
on this forum


1st, Rifle fit
2nd Good Glass
3rd Safe trigger with decent pull

The idea is to make it very easy for the beginner to place the shot.

Then the cartridge, there are numerous that will do job, adjust depending on the targeted game and hunting conditions

 

[Joel]

I agree. That Winchester safety is far superior safety to most. What I appreciate about them, is the way it holds the striker. A mere trigger block safety does nothing to mitigate a slipped sear.

Also really like controlled round feed. I have trouble understanding people that don't see it as an advantage. Push feeds work fine also, and CRF actions are unique to bolt actions, and I really don't have an issue with relying on a lever action for example which is really a type of push feed. But in a bolt action where I have the choice, there's no denying that a full length fixed extractor is stronger, has more extraction "power", and much less likely to fail at some point. And also strongly prefer the CRF for possible dangerous game, and generally like the little bit extra control that a true CRF gun has over chambering. Probably not a big deal, but it's my preference.

The OP, made mention of an end of the world type gun, and to me, it's hard not to consider the Mauser 96, M98, and the clones among the very best for longevity. My guns with these actions are probably at the youngest, near 60 years old, and the oldest one is over 120 years old. Made with good Swedish steel, it's still a good shooter, and I'd imagine it could still be around and serviceable to see a quarter of a millennium.

How do you know the Mauser claw has more extracting "power" than push feed?

As far as good steel goes, yep. Thats why some people replace the extractor on the New Haven "Classic" rifles with a Williams or other. And there's the quality of the machining, tolerances etc.

Is this truly a fact that can be quantified, or are you just repeating dogma?

Not saying that all push feeds are equal either but given their "dangerous game" track record I'd have no problem betting on an AI Arctic Warfare or TRG bolt system for hunting any animal anywhere on earth. Or a Tikka for that matter. Is a Sako 375 H&H more likely to have an extractor failure than a Mauser? Are they poorly regarded in the professional hunter/DG hunter community? How so?

I've replaced some Mauser claws in my (not very long) day and tuned a few to work properly. Just like any other gun part.

Then again, if you're gonna be breaking hydraulic tongs, maybe stick with Herr Mauser

 

[Joel]

I wouldn't go higher than 308. As a new shooter you need to practice trigger pull. You go to powerful you can develop the dreaded "twitch"
Even 308 may be a slight heavy. But it depends on your character.
I start all my family on 22LR, 22-250. 350 Legend and 243's. I've used 350L and 243 (47 years) to take tons of deer and bear.
350 Legend hammers these game animals. They key is confidence.
Under 10lb recoil and not eeath shattering.
Had great success with the grandkids using this idea.
They have solid trigger fundamentals and then gradute to whatever they like.
Just my 2 thoughts. If you are hunting yoru trigger work is essential for ethical kills.
Accuracy increases confidence.

Dang well said.

 

[MosinMan13]

People give you so much 'advice' on what to buy, based off SOME GOOD INFO, SOME PERSONAL BIAS...

But there's nothing like actually handling the rifles.

When I bought my first rifle, I literally went through every rifle they had on the rack, until it came to an absolutely hideous Remington M700 ADL in .30-06.
This was in 1980, and if you know what the ADL looked like then, it had a retarded gloss varnish finish, blind magazine, Monte Carlo cheek piece, pressed checkering etc...

And it was the LAST rifle on the gun rack.

But when I shouldered it, I immediately knew this was the rifle to buy. I fit me like a glove.

I still have that rifle today, arguably my favorite rifle.

Bonus being that it's in the single greatest best all-around cartridge ever... .30-06.

This and the other comment about staying in a caliber you can handle first.

There’s a lot of over complicated concepts out there, tenfold in advanced gear and methodology. If I was going back in time I’d still pickup a Marin 336 or a Rem 700 (or equivalent actions).

Even better yet get out shooting with some guys and try some rifles, I watched a friend run out and buy a 30.06 pump action on a whim, sight-unseen because he thought it was the cool thing to do, hated the rifle, hated the recoil, struggled to hit a giant Paper target at 75 yards with any reliability. I never saw it come out to the range again.

Somewhat unrelated but I’m sure plenty of people know that guy who ran out and bought a cheap short barrel pump for “home defence” ran out to the crown with some slugs and 000 buck and instantly regretted their haste.

Every 3rd person you ask will have differing advice, you won’t know until you know. I still find my preference for rifles changes time to time based on things I’ve tried.

 

[tactical lever]

How do you know the Mauser claw has more extracting "power" than push feed?

As far as good steel goes, yep. Thats why some people replace the extractor on the New Haven "Classic" rifles with a Williams or other. And there's the quality of the machining, tolerances etc.

Is this truly a fact that can be quantified, or are you just repeating dogma?

Not saying that all push feeds are equal either but given their "dangerous game" track record I'd have no problem betting on an AI Arctic Warfare or TRG bolt system for hunting any animal anywhere on earth. Or a Tikka for that matter. Is a Sako 375 H&H more likely to have an extractor failure than a Mauser? Are they poorly regarded in the professional hunter/DG hunter community? How so?

I've replaced some Mauser claws in my (not very long) day and tuned a few to work properly. Just like any other gun part.

Then again, if you're gonna be breaking hydraulic tongs, maybe stick with Herr Mauser

Not really a question I expected to have to answer... but here goes:

You can look at them for one. A little bit like looking at a compact hatchback and comparing it with a 3/4 ton truck, and know that one can can handle weight a lot better, seeing a beefy frame, big rear end, bigger, more torque intensive engine.

A regular push feed extractor snaps over the rim, and has a little spring action as it goes over. A little grit, or frozen condensation can hinder whether it gets a good purchase on the rim. Generally they have a smaller bite. They also rotate around the brass upon closing and opening the bolt, and I'm not sure that really hinders or increases failure rate, but if there's some junk there, it might not grab as well.

A true CRF extractor does not rely on a little spring, or any inherent springiness in its function. It simply grabs onto the rim as the mag pushes it up and holds it in position as the round is chambered. A full length extractor does not mean, it's a true CRF (like a model 77 Ruger, or at least some of them), but generally I'd rate these as a bit more preferable to a small rotating extractor. I favor a genuine CRF, and overall, I like the controlled round feed guns that CAN can snap over a rim if needed.

I'm curious, what kind of Mauser did you replace claws on? Fairly common to replace extractors on a push feed, but to be honest, I can't recall hearing anything about that on a CRF gun.

I'd like to know myself what professional dangerous game guides think of push feeds vs. CRF. CRF guns, and heavy doubles used to be considered the gold standard for dangerous game.

And not only just for dangerous game; many lamented Winchester dropping the full length extractor on their rifles back in the 60's. But it cost a bit more, and people were starting to get cheap. These days, generally most serious riflemen consider the CRF to be the best version of the bolt action, and we see many high dollar customs made from old actions. Some old actions have been rebarreled multiple times over quite a few decades. I'm biased of course, but I really doubt that if I'm around long enough I'd live to see a T3 action that's lived for 60+ years, and sitting in a custom claro walnut stock, and rebarreled to a shooter's preference.

Yeah, I could break stuff when I put my mind to it. Some years back, I was on a service rig, and was on the floor at the time operating tongs. Tripping into the hole after a work over or pump replacement, and my driller at the time gave me crap for not operating the tongs like I wanted to break them when I shifted into low, to torque 'em up tight and he had to hesitate a couple times on the handle. Well I kinda got my back up a bit, and thought: "Ya want to push it, eh? See how fast we are when we're waiting on a welder!" So every connection, I smashed it into low range like I was going to put my fist through the side plate. It took a little while, but before we got all the way into the hole, I busted something off inside the tongs, and the handle didn't do a thing. So we had about a 3 hour lunch, and cleaned a little bit waiting for a welder to come out.

So, yes I do favor a robust build...

 

[tactical lever]

Meant to say a word on pump action rifles, and semi auto guns. If you are wanting a compact gun, a pump action or semi will be about 4 inches longer with the same barrel length than bolt or lever, due to the enclosed action. And a break open, or falling block will be a bit shorter than a bolt or lever with same barrel length.

 

[murph83]

A Leupold 2.5x8 would top this off nicely.

yup sure would

 

[tactical lever]

I also have a great many years with the 6.5X55 nd really like it, but consider the following.

The OP is new to this , and not hand loading yet.
Wit the factory cartridge options for the Creedmoor ( far more than with the 6.5Swede) these days one does not need to shoot heavy bullets, and there are many more options available in newer firearms for the 6.5 Creedmoor than the 6.5X55.
Cat

I like heavier bullets also. There's always an "ideal" range of weights, where lighter bullets will lose speed and energy fairly rapidly, and heavier, just don't have quite enough velocity to start with.

There might be a few more choices with the CM, but there was quite a few choices for the Swede also. I counted once, and IIRC there was something like 27 factory loads available for the 6.5x55, while the 6.5 CM had 32. Or something like that...

 

[Highwind]

A middle of the road caliber would be a 308. Good for everything you mentioned. Find a rifle that fits good and get a decent scope and decent rings and your good to go.

 

[Joel]

Not really a question I expected to have to answer... but here goes

And it was answered purely in the realm of the theoretical.

A claw covers more of the rim of the casing, yes. But that says nothing of the material our two examples of an extractor are made of, or the springiness of the claw, which one is going to yield or give first, etc.

I've had ARs (especially DPMS which said "5.56 NATO" lol) where the extractor ripped big chunks of the rim of the case right off. I really don't think a Mauser claw is going to do anything for you beyond that. Maybe since it grips more of the case, it would have been successful? Since the force would be distributed over a greater area of the casing maybe. But this is way worse of an issue than will ever be encountered in a bolt action rifle. And I dunno how anyone can ask for more power than "it rips the rim right off of cases" lol. Without damaging the extractor btw.

The rifles I've replaced extractors on were German and Czech 98 actions. And a Zastava but its not the action's fault it was made like dog#### from the factory. I sent that one in for warranty work.

A regular push feed extractor snaps over the rim, and has a little spring action as it goes over. A little grit, or frozen condensation can hinder whether it gets a good purchase on the rim.

How often does that happen with the Sako/Tikka systems? With an AI AW type system? Any idea?

These days, generally most serious riflemen consider the CRF to be the best version of the bolt action

Its arguably worse than a Ruger 77 Hawkeye. Certainly less safe. And not really into what people throw ten grand into lol. Its a real challenge to try to articulate why a pre 64 Win 70 is better than anything today. Probably not even the best of the Mauser derivatives. Don't much care what people think so much as what empirically can be shown to prove it true, and I don't think there is anything.

What's it doing that a good C ring Mauser action can't for example? Which can't do anything a good push feed can't either. If its the right push feed. We can't count them all as equal.

I'm biased of course, but I really doubt that if I'm around long enough I'd live to see a T3 action that's lived for 60+ years, and sitting in a custom claro walnut stock, and rebarreled to a shooter's preference.

Because it can't, or because of people's taste?

Honestly wouldn't want to do that but I know of many with very high round counts that have been rebarreled a few times including by guys on these boards.

Yeah, I could break stuff when I put my mind to it. Some years back, I was on a service rig, and was on the floor at the time operating tongs. Tripping into the hole after a work over or pump replacement, and my driller at the time gave me crap for not operating the tongs like I wanted to break them when I shifted into low, to torque 'em up tight and he had to hesitate a couple times on the handle. Well I kinda got my back up a bit, and thought: "Ya want to push it, eh? See how fast we are when we're waiting on a welder!" So every connection, I smashed it into low range like I was going to put my fist through the side plate. It took a little while, but before we got all the way into the hole, I busted something off inside the tongs, and the handle didn't do a thing. So we had about a 3 hour lunch, and cleaned a little bit waiting for a welder to come out.

So, yes I do favor a robust build...

LOL well, ask and you shall receive!

What I'd really like to see is some kind of AvE style test where we could JB weld or otherwise near permanently attach a casing inside a rifle chamber, and apply measured hydraulic pressure rearward on the bolts and see what happens and at what reading they crap out. That would give us some real world input and evidence. Could easily to the tests with dirt, ice etc and I think the more sealed up actions are gonna work better than the less sealed up actions, regardless of the type of extractor in use. This has been done with severe and unrealistic ice by one of the bigger posters at Rokslide with interesting results.

Really want to say I've read of a test where it was shown a 700 style extractor could pull with more force than a claw but I can't find it so take that with a huge grain of salt for now.

 

[buck knife]

I would have to suggest a .308 stainless tikka t3x ,I've been so impressed by this rifle,and it comes on sale frequently,you won't be disappointed in a tikka.

 

[tactical lever]

And it was answered purely in the realm of the theoretical.

A claw covers more of the rim of the casing, yes. But that says nothing of the material our two examples of an extractor are made of, or the springiness of the claw, which one is going to yield or give first, etc.

I've had ARs (especially DPMS which said "5.56 NATO" lol) where the extractor ripped big chunks of the rim of the case right off. I really don't think a Mauser claw is going to do anything for you beyond that. Maybe since it grips more of the case, it would have been successful? Since the force would be distributed over a greater area of the casing maybe. But this is way worse of an issue than will ever be encountered in a bolt action rifle. And I dunno how anyone can ask for more power than "it rips the rim right off of cases" lol. Without damaging the extractor btw.

The rifles I've replaced extractors on were German and Czech 98 actions. And a Zastava but its not the action's fault it was made like dog#### from the factory. I sent that one in for warranty work.

I'd consider covering more of the rim a plus, no matter how hard or easy the extraction, wouldn't you? The design of the full length extractor isn't going to want to spring out away from the rim during extraction, particularly if it doesn't spring over while attempting to load it.

Have heard of rims getting ripped off. In these cases did it actually extract?

I suppose anything can fail, though I recall more problems with push feed, and never hear about full length claw extractor problems.

Was wondering about the Zastava CRF rifles, and seriously thinking of getting one in .375 H&H for a few years now. Did you end up with a good one when it was all said and done?

How often does that happen with the Sako/Tikka systems? With an AI AW type system? Any idea?

Nope. As I believe I've said, I prefer the simplicity because of less chance of failure, not because I hear of a lot.

Its arguably worse than a Ruger 77 Hawkeye. Certainly less safe. And not really into what people throw ten grand into lol. Its a real challenge to try to articulate why a pre 64 Win 70 is better than anything today. Probably not even the best of the Mauser derivatives. Don't much care what people think so much as what empirically can be shown to prove it true, and I don't think there is anything.

What's it doing that a good C ring Mauser action can't for example? Which can't do anything a good push feed can't either. If its the right push feed. We can't count them all as equal.

Is it worse? Less safe? Why?

There's a lot to like about Ruger M77. I appreciate that they went to a 3 position wing type safety. A superior design, like Winchester's. Are they actually a CRF now? I have a tang safety model, and it wasn't until I played with it a little that I realized it wasn't grabbing the rim right out of the magazine.

I don't know that they are any better than a 98, or other versions. They are priced pretty high, but there are probably many guns built as well that go cheaper.

Because it can't, or because of people's taste?

Honestly wouldn't want to do that but I know of many with very high round counts that have been rebarreled a few times including by guys on these boards.

You are right, that much of it is personal taste.

LOL well, ask and you shall receive!

What I'd really like to see is some kind of AvE style test where we could JB weld or otherwise near permanently attach a casing inside a rifle chamber, and apply measured hydraulic pressure rearward on the bolts and see what happens and at what reading they crap out. That would give us some real world input and evidence. Could easily to the tests with dirt, ice etc and I think the more sealed up actions are gonna work better than the less sealed up actions, regardless of the type of extractor in use. This has been done with severe and unrealistic ice by one of the bigger posters at Rokslide with interesting results.

Really want to say I've read of a test where it was shown a 700 style extractor could pull with more force than a claw but I can't find it so take that with a huge grain of salt for now.

Funny you should mention the 700. Seems to me, that a few years back it got popular modifying 700's to take a Sako, or Sako style extractor, which was viewed as better. I read one account of the modification being problematic, and the guy had more problems than before..which if I remember right, were none.

When it's all said and done, a lot of it comes down to individual guns. Across the board, broad brush there are few fewer problems with full length extractors.

It's somewhat common to buy or even have extra extractors on hand for some guns. Lots of rimfires failures, AR and some semi auto guns seem to need them from time to time, and even my beloved Marlins have an extractor option that is supposed to be "better". The aftermarket or parts market is a good indicator of how many people are replacing extractors because of failures.

 

[iron cat]

I like heavier bullets also. There's always an "ideal" range of weights, where lighter bullets will lose speed and energy fairly rapidly, and heavier, just don't have quite enough velocity to start with.

There might be a few more choices with the CM, but there was quite a few choices for the Swede also. I counted once, and IIRC there was something like 27 factory loads available for the 6.5x55, while the 6.5 CM had 32. Or something like that...

Was that ammo on the shelf of a store or was it in a catalogue?
Also, bullet technology has advantage greatly in the past 20 years or so, and there is little need to shoot a heavy cup and core bullet unless a person really want to.
Cat

 

[Joel]

I'd consider covering more of the rim a plus, no matter how hard or easy the extraction, wouldn't you?

Up to a point, beyond which you have to admit you can't prove more is better lol. I mean obviously more than 1 mm of coverage would be good but I bet diminishing returns are reached at some point before the full size claw.

Proof to the contrary is conspicuously absent.

The design of the full length extractor isn't going to want to spring out away from the rim during extraction, particularly if it doesn't spring over while attempting to load it.

I'm told in Jim Carmichael's "Book of the Rifle" that is exactly what happens in his head to head test of the two systems. A properly installed Rem 700 action tears through the case rim. The Mauser claw slips off of the case rim.

They can snap over the rim of a case you load into the barrel, you just have to push on the side of it. Apparently if you apply enough force, they slip back off too. Mind you I haven't read the book personally. It just mirrors what I have seen in the AR.

Have heard of rims getting ripped off. In these cases did it actually extract?

Nope but I'd say its applying a lot more force than most people think such an extractor can lol.

Now how many of the Rem 700 extractors are properly made and installed is a whole other story lol

Was wondering about the Zastava CRF rifles, and seriously thinking of getting one in .375 H&H for a few years now. Did you end up with a good one when it was all said and done?

Yeah, the 375 was a solid rifle! have had 7x57s and 6.5x55s and a stainless 9.3x62 as well. They were all accurate. Great blueing, great barrels. Expect little quality control defects. You'll probably need windage adjustable mounts or a scope with lots of adjustment range cause the rear and front scope base holes are always cattywampus to each other. Sometimes they feed rough.

Given the price difference I like a Winchester 70...if theres even a price difference if you're buying the Winchester used But if you don't mind the chance you're gonna tinker, they're cool.

Funny you should mention the 700. Seems to me, that a few years back it got popular modifying 700's to take a Sako, or Sako style extractor, which was viewed as better. I read one account of the modification being problematic, and the guy had more problems than before..which if I remember right, were none.

n=1 but its still interesting that the poor guy spent the money and the time on what became a downgrade lol. Poor dude. Bet it compromised the "three rings of steel" of the Rem 700 action too

I'll wait to hear how often some of the more reliable push feeds that I've named need new extractors but yeah I can agree, across the board the Mauser claw is more reliable.

With MIM #### like a Ruger American able to go 10,000 rounds before failure I'm really not sweating a Tikka, Sako etc. At all.