My thinking for a first hunting rifle

afish29 said:
Hello, I need to rack up a couple posts to get access to EE, so here we go:

I just got my PAL and restricted. Not totally new to guns after a decade in the military, just never used them outside of work. I'm hoping to join my friends hunting deer and moose mainly around Parry Sound and Muskoka, but we may make trips further north. The deer hunts are mostly driven hunts, and I've been told I'll be dogging lots for years as the new guy. I don't know much about the moose hunts. I've been told you rarely see anything further than 50 yards away in those woods.

I've got a great wishlist of guns for each different scenario, but not the money for it all in one shot. So I'd like a one gun solution that will get me going and allow me to put that money towards something nice to use, get a good optic etc. This is my thinking and what I've come to, but happy to have my Google-conceived idea shot to pieces:

-able to take deer, moose, bear
-recoil that won't make me want to shoot it less
-reasonably light and short due to all the bushwhacking I'll be doing
-ammo availability and cost that encourage practice
-something I can enjoy using to practice marksmanship at the range
-all-weather, dependable, would love it to become my end of the world rifle once I have safe full of guns for every occasion

I'm thinking a .308 bolt gun with an 18-20" barrel. Top contenders are the Tikka T3x CTR or Ruger Gunsite Scout Rifle. I've also thought about getting a used T3x, getting the barrel chopped to 18", and chipping away at customizing it over time with all the aftermarket bits available. For optic I'm thinking a 1-6 or 1-8 LPVO.

The other idea was to get a Browning BLR in .243 for deer and coyotes, and a nice bolt action in 7mm PRC for moose and anything where I get to be in a stand, something like the Browning x-bolt pro SPR, but that's way more money.
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Looks like this thread already went a bit off the rails, but personally I'd go with your last idea and not try for a do everything solution. Something inexpensive, lightweight, short, bolt action and stainless/synthetic with a low power optic would be my choice for dogging deer while you get a feel for things. You can always add more later. BLR is a handy rifle but not the easiest thing to clean and maintain. CTR is nice but too heavy for that job IMO. I like nice wood stocks as much as the next person but you're going to get wet and your rifle is going to take a bit of a beating while moving through brush.

For what it's worth, I'm using a Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39 for dogging, CTR in 6.5cm or old Sako A2 in 308 for sitting, and a 7PRC for moose. You can certainly get away with a one and done solution though as others have suggested (Tikka 30.06, etc) but I've got more of a "collect them all" approach to things haha
 
tactical lever said:
No I never did see that either, lol!

Comparing a .264 WM shooting a 100 gr at 3499, and a 6.5x55 shooting a 155 gr at 2559 already has a 20% momentum advantage for the smaller gun at 100 yards! So tell the advantage of burning the extra powder, muzzle blast and expense? Do you see many cup and core failures at 2400 fps?
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Wouldn't know. Why the heck would I want a 264 Win Mag anyway?

I'm burning 42 whole grains of powder gettin over 3100 fps with the 100gr and killin stuff just fine. Guess I better start thinking of those imaginary advantages I'm giving up or those animals might just get wise and come back to life.

Don't nobody go tellin them about momentum lol.

Never had a failure with either kinda bullet, wouldn't expect it.


Jon87 said:
For what it's worth, I'm using a Ruger American Ranch in 7.62x39 for dogging, CTR in 6.5cm or old Sako A2 in 308 for sitting, and a 7PRC for moose. You can certainly get away with a one and done solution though as others have suggested (Tikka 30.06, etc) but I've got more of a "collect them all" approach to things haha
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Now we're talkin lol.

The Ranch is such a handy rifle. Does very well with good ammo too.
 
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My first rifle was a 30-06 Remington 700 BDL with a Redfield 3x9 widefield scope. 40 years later I have a variety of rifles, calibers and actions. Still, my go too is the 30-06. It's a combination of nostalgia, and effectiveness on both deer and moose. I use to load 180 interlocks, but have since switched to 165 grain TTSX, with excellent results from short to medium range.
 
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tactical lever said:
No I never did see that either, lol!

Comparing a .264 WM shooting a 100 gr at 3499, and a 6.5x55 shooting a 155 gr at 2559 already has a 20% momentum advantage for the smaller gun at 100 yards! So tell the advantage of burning the extra powder, muzzle blast and expense? Do you see many cup and core failures at 2400 fps?
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You need to compare the two with equal bullet weights to see what the advantage / disadvantage is..
A 140 would in both be more realistic.
Cat
 
iron cat said:
You need to compare the two with equal bullet weights to see what the advantage / disadvantage is..
A 140 would in both be more realistic.
Cat
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It would.

But I am trying to think about just what mechanism "momentum advantages" kill through, and can't really come up with one at all lol.
 
Read your original post and skipped over all the responses.

I agree on your idea of a 308. Over kill on deer and more than enough for moose. Not too much recoil. I found the 180 gr bullet was good on moose and did less damage on deer than a 150.

I have a 20" bolt 308. Muzzle blast is pretty bad. Need good muffs for shooting practice. Would not want it any shorter.

You might consider cutting barrel to 22" and see how that works. You can always cut more. later, but welding those little bits back on is tricky....
 
iron cat said:
You need to compare the two with equal bullet weights to see what the advantage / disadvantage is..
A 140 would in both be more realistic.
Cat
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Well sure that would be a lot more comparable. But the conventional wisdom is to go lighter and drive them faster to make them perform and keep them above the point where they fail to open.
 
Joel said:
It would.

But I am trying to think about just what mechanism "momentum advantages" kill through, and can't really come up with one at all lol.
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Momentum and more metal isn't an advantage now? Are we upending all we learned about physics? You don't like fpe, because you think arrows kill just fine with maybe 150 fpe, but you're ignoring the mechanism used in a bullet. No one in their right mind is going to agree that a .22 LR has as much killing power as an arrow launched at regular big game bow speeds with a razor sharp broadhead.

A .204 Ruger shooting a 32gr. bullet at just over 4000 fps has slightly more kinetic energy than a .44 magnum out of a pistol firing a 240 gr at a bit over 1400. Yet a .44 magnum is a far better killer of big game. Do you think that's just some accident, or because the box says .44 Magnum on it?

According to you velocity doesn't matter, bullet mass doesn't matter, and energy makes no difference. Why not just save some money, weight and recoil and just tip over elk with a .223?

You have your preferences which is fine, but facts don't care about feelings.
 
Its not that complicated. Cavitation through organs that make them stop working kills.

A wide slow bullet like a 45-70 hard cast going slow enough to see it in the air kills fine. Does it need speed or energy? Nope.

The 223...I'd hunt elk with it with the right bullet. Its tougher with monos because they don't open wide enough. In that case yeah the heavier lead core fragmenting bullet combines wound width and depth.

The 77gr tmk is an arguably better killer than 44 mag.

But what I am saying is a mono opens up wide enough, goes deep enough and destroys tissue enough to kill well if its within the velocity window its designed for. "They need to be driven fast" is not true be because they are designed differently for different cartridges.

A bullet that loses a lot of itself in fragmentation needs to be heavy since its loss of weight changes its SD and its ability to penetrate.

This does not happen with larger caliber monos that open wide enough to damage more tissue than the 22 cals. Hqence momentum does not make the heavier lead coqred bullet advantageous at all. Maybe if you compare a 130gr lead core 30 cal to a 180gr lead core 30 cal.

How much physics have you done? :) got much of a background in it? Lol
 
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Joel said:
Its not that complicated. Cavitation through organs that make them stop working kills.

A wide slow bullet like a 45-70 hard cast going slow enough to see it in the air kills fine. Does it need speed or energy? Nope.

The 223...I'd hunt elk with it with the right bullet. I use monos tho. They simply dont open wide enough.


But what I am saying is a mono opens up wide enough, goes deep enough and destroys tissue enough to kill well if its within the velocity window its designed for. "They need to be driven fast" is not true be because they are designed differently for different cartridges.

A bullet that loses a lot of itself in fragmentation needs to be heavy since its loss of weight changes its SD and its ability to penetrate.

This does not happen with monos. Hence momentum does not make the heavier lead cored bullet advantageous at all. Maybe if you compare a 130gr lead core 30 cal to a 180gr lead core 30 cal.

How much physics have you done? :) got much of a background in it ?
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How much elk hunting have you done? :) got much background in it?
 
pathfinder76 said:
How much elk hunting have you done? :) got much background in it?
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Lots of anatomy, physiology and lab work. But no my work and hunting experience are moose based.

Please feel free to try to explain where I am wrong though. You can, right?

I'm ready to take notes lol
 
Translation: "I can't but I'll make noise anyway"

Who said anything about theory lol. Nothing theoretical up there whether you know it, understand it, like it or not. And you're certainly no unique factual authority on elk killing.

Be brave, point out what you think is wrong and I'll show material from someone who kills a lot of elk and disagrees. Fair?
 
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pathfinder76 said:
Joel, how in the world can you give advice on hunting elk? Then elk cartridges? Then mock someone for their physics knowledge?
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What advice did I give that's wrong? You won't even say yet think you should be taken seriously. This should be a very easy exercise if your take counts for more.

And I wasnt the one who mentioned physics. Again. Simple question.

The fact you wont answer but keep commenting is pretty telling.
 
One of our GOOD members on here was out Whitetail hunting with his Howa Mini 6.5 Grendel with a Horn 123 ELDM and spots a Big Bull moose at about 175 yards ! Well the Sako 300 Win Mag rifle is back in camp so I Guess seeing as HE has a tag and it's MOOSE open season The Mighty G will have to do ! Line up and Bang ! The Bull staggers a bit and flops over DRT ! Perfect HEART shot . He’s a Good Shot and shot a ton of game and gets the Job Done ! RJ

Point being Shot PLACEMENT is #1 and even the ####ty ?? Hornady bullet did its job !
 
Lookin at the pictures of the wounds his ELDs make, and hes shown me a ton, they do a lot better at grendel speeds than when driven faster. Just like he says.

Could tell people those were from lots of different bigger rifles and no one would know
 
pathfinder76 said:
Joel. Again. The best way to figure this stuff out is to actually do it. At least that’s what I have found. YMMV.
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Pathfinder. Again. What was I wrong about, or are you just talking to hear it while I converse with other people? lol.

Round and round and round we go, what's he think is mistaken? Nobody knows.
 
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