Neck sizing only

H4831, I agree 100%...........you must be almost as smart, good looking and modest as I am. :evil:.

Hell, I got you beat on all counts, especially modesty?
Maybe that didn't come out right, maybe we both will just keep on writing our piece's, that no one listens to!
 
I hate to disagree with Mystic Precision "BUT" I have seven different type and make .223/5.56 resizing dies. Body dies, bushing dies, neck dies, full length dies etc.
I worked in a Sporting Goods store and got a very good discount on these dies and wanted to check the difference in dies in our plus and minus manufacturing world.

I have two Redding .223 body dies, a standard body die (75111) and a small base body die (74111) and if anything the Redding dies tend to reduce the body diameter "more" than the standard Forster or RCBS full length dies. I used these body dies along with my Lee collet die but just did not like this two step system of resizing. (but many other people do) I used the small base body die because I was buying once fired Lake City brass and wanted to return the case to minimum dimensions the first sizing.

Below from the Redding website.

"Body Dieshttp://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/
Redding has been making Body Dies for Benchrest Shooters for years, but they were never a catalogued item. Now, with the introduction of the Bushing-Style Neck Sizing Dies, they are available as a companion item for most cartridges. Body Dies are designed to full length resize the case body and bump the shoulder position for proper chambering without disturbing the case neck. They are made without internal parts and intended for use only to resize cases which have become increasingly difficult to chamber after repeated firing and neck sizing."


Forgive me Mystic Precision but I have never read or have anyone else tell me a Redding body die does not size the case body any different than a normal full length die does.

Bottom line, I tried the body die and Lee collet die system and just didn't like it. I didn't like having to polish the poorly made die or the marks left on the case neck. And I didn't like asking myself if each case neck was sized the same or if my arm needed recalibration. My necks on the cases sized in my Forster dies are a uniform diameter after sizing and using a proper diameter and properly lubed expander does wonders.

I do have a Lee full length .223 die that sizes the case to a smaller diameter and pushes the shoulder back further than any other die I have.

I use a Redding .303 British case forming and trim die to bump the shoulders back on my neck sized cases fired in my Enfield rifles. This die will bump the shoulder and not touch the neck or body of the case.

Below shows the difference in sized case necks and they vary .005

Your sizing dies are overworking your brass
Are Your Sizing Dies Overworking Your Rifle Brass?
http://www.massreloading.com/article_index.html

Below my Forster die did not need to have the neck honed and did not over work the case necks.

FL Bushing Dies vs. Honed FL Dies
http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/reloading/fl-bushing-dies-vs-honed-fl-dies/
 
I can't understand why modern reloaders are so hung up on neck sizing, only. If you are using a military rifle, like a Lee Enfield, yes, the brass will last much longer by neck sizing only, provided the first firing with a new case was carried out properly. However, with most sporting rifles there may not be any difference in how many firings the case will stand before it wears out, in whether it is just neck sized, or full length resized every time.
If it is accuracy you are thinking of, I will wager that you can not prove whether the neck sized or FL sized are the most accurate. And if you do, there is a good chance it will be the full length resized that will be the most accurate.

Finally someone who knows what he is talking about......


I would give a Benchrester's opinion but no one listens to us anyways...... I hear we are to anal about our reloading practices.
 
Hell, I got you beat on all counts, especially modesty?
Maybe that didn't come out right, maybe we both will just keep on writing our piece's, that no one listens to!

H4831, I actually think that Ron AKA is the most modest person in the forum.
Laugh2


I have to go now, my nose is longer now than Pinocchio's and I have to rub some disappearing cream on it. :p
 
When they use a FL sizer, they put faith in the parts and have little idea why the outcome is either positive or negative.

That's got me thinking...I am now wondering how full length resized brass I was using a year ago would compare against neck sizing. I certainly would not have learned as much using a full length die.

Hell, I got you beat on all counts, especially modesty?
Maybe that didn't come out right, maybe we both will just keep on writing our piece's, that no one listens to!

I don't know what's compelling me to go here but H4831, I know you are being facetious with the comment of no one listening but truth be told I follow your posts very seriously, likely along with many others here, especially regarding 7mm-08 including powders and primers in my case. the other guy with similar name to mine with a different suffix not so much. I think he's BigEd's favorite.

There are many of you patient enough to answer questions and share their experiences without a negative connotation. Eagleye, Ganderite, Hitzy, Dogleg etc and list goes on and on. Perhaps I've misinterpreted, but from your posts I have taken that new reloaders have just got to figure things out sometimes for themselves, for queries that clearly depict a lesser comprehension of reloading, and are simple to answer for the really experienced. To me you seem frustrated at times with some of your responses in these situations...like now. I wouldn't take posts that may appear opposed to your philosophy on reloading negatively. It's based on the experience, or lack of, of the poster.

From a previous post in the hunting section regarding wolves, if I am correct, you have a book. I'll find a copy eventually to read it because I am further interested about your experiences.

To follow you some more, I've got some brass that's once fired to fl size from a year ago to test against the current methods used here for reloading to compare. That will be from the experience from this end. If the neck sizing results are better does that indicate no one's listening? :) Of course not.

:cheers: H4831

Ronr
 
That's got me thinking...I am now wondering how full length resized brass I was using a year ago would compare against neck sizing. I certainly would not have learned as much using a full length die.



I don't know what's compelling me to go here but H4831, I know you are being facetious with the comment of no one listening but truth be told I follow your posts very seriously, likely along with many others here, especially regarding 7mm-08 including powders and primers in my case. the other guy with similar name to mine with a different suffix not so much. I think he's BigEd's favorite.

There are many of you patient enough to answer questions and share their experiences without a negative connotation. Eagleye, Ganderite, Hitzy, Dogleg etc and list goes on and on. Perhaps I've misinterpreted, but from your posts I have taken that new reloaders have just got to figure things out sometimes for themselves, for queries that clearly depict a lesser comprehension of reloading, and are simple to answer for the really experienced. To me you seem frustrated at times with some of your responses in these situations...like now. I wouldn't take posts that may appear opposed to your philosophy on reloading negatively. It's based on the experience, or lack of, of the poster.

From a previous post in the hunting section regarding wolves, if I am correct, you have a book. I'll find a copy eventually to read it because I am further interested about your experiences.

To follow you some more, I've got some brass that's once fired to fl size from a year ago to test against the current methods used here for reloading to compare. That will be from the experience from this end. If the neck sizing results are better does that indicate no one's listening? :) Of course not.

:cheers: H4831

Ronr

RON!! My Rookie SK friend!! Sounds like you've made some good progress over the summer. I kinda stalled out....but have a little girl as an excuse.

Your points are good. Being a reloading/precision mentor seems to be 90% patience. Everyone has to decide for themselves. Safety is the only rule.

GGG
 
I neck size on target and varmint rifles cause its a hell of a lot less work and I prefer the lee collet die cause there is no lube and no clean up and very concentric ammo. when after 4-8 firings the bolt has some resistance closing on the case I full length resize.

hunting rifles get full length resized.
 
bigedp51, your post simply highlights the points I have been making... dies vary.. chambers vary.

With careful measurement, use the die that does the job to suit the rifle and application. There is no one right answer.

many competition shooters use body dies over FL sizers... Redding tends to be quite consistent in their dimensions. For most, the body die doesn't touch or size a SAAMI spec chamber. If the chamber is near max, it certainly will size but again, a variation of dimensions.

The Lee collet dies appeal is its simplicity... you can't oversize the case and if the neck ductility is consistent, the sizing will be too.

Another interesting new option is the forster bushing/bump die... now you get it all in one die.

Love Forster stuff and glad that their dimensions fit the chambers you are working with.

Test, measure, use the tools that get the job done right.... Just dont assume all dies do the same job.

YMMV

Jerry
 
Another interesting new option is the forster bushing/bump die... now you get it all in one die.

Love Forster stuff and glad that their dimensions fit the chambers you are working with.

Test, measure, use the tools that get the job done right.... Just dont assume all dies do the same job.

YMMV

Jerry

I have the Forster bushing bump die and it produces more neck runout than any other die I own.

Neck sizing dies do not fully support the body of the case and hold the case in perfect alignment with the neck of the die. And then add a bushing that floats and even tilt and if you reduce the neck diameter .005 or more it will induce neck runout. This is why it is recommended to reduce the neck diameter in two or more steps when reducing the neck diameter .005 or more.

The Whidden custom die website tell you "The non-bushing sizer die typically yields more concentric ammo in our experience."

Kevin Thomas was the Chief Ballistician at Sierra bullets from 1986 to 2007 and now shoots for Team Lapua. Below are some of his postings.


mikeg1005,

You're not having issues, you're just experiencing Neck Sizing. Use the F/L dies, and you can avoid all this. Cases fired in one rifle should chamber in that same rifle after being neck sized (for a time, anyway) but that's not always what we get. You do, occasionally, get this sort of interference, stiff bolt closure, sticky extraction, and so on.

Neck sizing offers absolutely no increase in accuracy, and full length sizing (if done correctly) is no harder on the brass. The F/L sizing will also allow you avoid a wide variety of headaches that N/S invariably causes at some point.
__________________
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA


boomtube

I don't know what is meant by 'neck size only when needed'. I don't know as it's ever needed but it sounds good. Most of us learn that it's value for both accuracy and case life is vastly over rated. Neck sizing only helps accuracy if the loader is doing a poor job of FL sizing. Cases usually fail with split necks and, on average, common neck dies work the necks as hard as any FL die. (Lee's unique collet neck die does greatly reduce cold working necks so cases do last a little longer, and do it without the fussyness of bushing sizers.)

Real advanced reloaders usually properly FL size and generally avoid neck sizing but virtually every one has to try it and learn the truth for themselves.

Expander balls in conventional dies are there for a very useful purpose and sizing without expanding causes more problems than it solves.

__________________
Kevin Thomas
Lapua USA


I guess it depends on whether you agree with the experts who write the books or the experts who write on forums. The books all indicate that neck sizing is a proven method to increase accuracy and case life. Proper neck sizing involves bushings to resize the neck to .002 to .003 under the loaded case neck diameter.

Depends on which books you've been reading. Frankly, I don't know any successful competitive shooters who neck size, including (literally) the best in the world. Most of the writers who put such stuff out wouldn't be caught dead at such shoots, and have no idea what they're talking about. When Ohio Ordnance came out with their M1918A3 semi-auto BAR, one of those same gun writers (very well known, and from one of the more prominent gun magazines) promptly declared that it'd be, "the perfect rifle to use in Service Rifle competition at Camp Perry." The guy clearly had no idea what constitutes a Service Rifle, has never attended a high power match of any type, and probably couldn't even find Camp Perry on a map.

Sticking to those who both write, and actually compete (a very small club, I assure you), you'll never hear any of them recommend Neck Sizing.

The above are not my opinion, they are a experts opinion by a pro who worked in the Sierra Ballistic Test Lab and now shoots for Team Lapua.

And Kevin Thomas is a firm believer in the "Rat t u r d in th violin case method of reloading".
 
I bet most people do what they have found works for them after trying various methods.

Most of us start out with stock FL dies when we get into reloading.

After trying the various types of neck dies, body dies, FL dies etc people will make up their own mind. This hobby is packed with those who like to experiment but I don't think reloaders are the type of people that stick to a practice if they are not getting the results. There is a reason why dies other than FL dies are available. And then there are horses for courses.
 
Neck sizing with Lee Collet is so easy, no lube, pull lever, you're done.

All the flyers is always the die's fault no matter FL or neck sized :rolleyes:
 
....there are also reloaders that don't stick to practice even when something IS working!!! Some just like to diddle and try things out.

I will be honest, I quickly gravitated to collet dies and nitride bushing neck sizing dies for my bolt actions. I am happy with the results in those particular rifles where they are employed. So I don't see the point in changing.

The next time I buy a new rifle in a different chambering, if Forster make a suitable FL die then I will take bigedp51's advice and get some Forster dies with the expander ball up high to try out.
 
Finally someone who knows what he is talking about......

I would give a Benchrester's opinion but no one listens to us anyways...... .

Thanks for your comments. I have Warren Page's book, "The Accurate Rifle," and on occasion have posted quotes from it, mostly on bedding the rifle and the bench loaders way of hand loading, both for 100 yard and long range. And you are correct, no one pays any attention!
 
Thanks for your comments. I have Warren Page's book, "The Accurate Rifle," and on occasion have posted quotes from it, mostly on bedding the rifle and the bench loaders way of hand loading, both for 100 yard and long range. And you are correct, no one pays any attention!
I hope you didn't miss Ron R's post #25
Some of us pay close attention and appreciate the years of experience
 
bigedp51, for precision work, no one sizes more then a few thou as we know high neck tension can lead to high runout in the seating process. We are looking at 1 to 2 thou neck tension (after springback -and yes, many will outside neck turn and anneal)... no one would/should be willing to size 5 thou using a bushing die so there is no problem.

Wrong tool for the job if you want high neck tension ammo.

If neck sizing dies are so bad, why is the Lee collet neck die so good? I am sure you know that dies does not support the case in anyways shape or form :)

We are going round and round (as expected)... ultimately, the goal is the same, make good, accurate and reliable ammo. But there is alot of misunderstanding about the tools and how to use them. If a shooter gets a positive result with part 1 in rifle B, that does not make it fact for all parts and all rifles. When you break down the goals and objectives, the right tool comes to the fore... then you have to find the one that works as expected.

There will always be fans of various doctrines... but those that move the tech will take the good from all doctrines and come up with a process that supercedes them all for the given tasks.

I do like that you refer various shooters that should know what they are doing BUT there are many more that compete at the highest levels of LR precision that will differ in opinion so.....

I wonder what the Team Berger, Sinclair, US Open and FTR teams do? Maybe they are different, maybe the same, maybe some combination of it all..... Funny what you learn when you get to shoot with some of these guys and gals.

Most of what is current F class tech started from SR BR so not only are we listening, we have borrowed, modified, improved and changed to meet our set of circumstances.

There is one constant in the realm of LR precision... things will continue to evolve as "better" methods are figured out.

'nuff said.

Jerry
 
Reloading and shooting is a hobby and as long as the person pulling the press handle is happy is all that matters.

Life was much simpler when I didn't have so many gauges to tell me what I'm doing wrong.

I also graduated first in my class from the Attila the Hun School of Diplomacy and would rather be arguing with Ron AKA about lubing cases or primer hardness.

I have to go now, I have a small RC quadcopter and I have to go torment my cats. :evil:

sunray_zpshj1fj6gj.png


Its simple things in life that bring the most enjoyment....................
 
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I have a 260Rem Ackley. I find that fireforming loads have shot the tightest groups. Better than neck-sized "formed" brass. I have no idea why, but it tells me my current load is not up to the rifle potential.

Factory brass, waiting to be formed is even looser than a mouse turd in a violin case.
 
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