Neck turners/precision reloading

hunters home said:
Have you ever had a problem with the body die/Lee collet die set-up causing donuts.. I've used this method in 3 of my heavy barreled rifles and have never got a donut. Maybe just lucky.
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BCBRAD said:
It is not a problem but after a lot of cycles, 10-15 depending ,I find the bolt has a bit of stiffness upon closing. I set the cutter up so it does not affect most of the neck just the swell/donut at the base of the neck.

Much prefer the body die and Lee collet die, as opposed to bushings, which transfer any irregularities to the inside of the neck.
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I've had donuts after 5 to 6 firings using Lapua brass. Not significant but periodically, they would appear. Just turned again. Chalking it up to case to case subtleties. I was actually surprised at how much material would come off with some cases after a second or third turning.

Body die and collet used here as well. Works well for me for the same reasons BC.

Regards
Ronr
 
BCBRAD said:
It is not a problem but after a lot of cycles, 10-15 depending ,I find the bolt has a bit of stiffness upon closing. I set the cutter up so it does not affect most of the neck just the swell/donut at the base of the neck.

Much prefer the body die and Lee collet die, as opposed to bushings, which transfer any irregularities to the inside of the neck.
Click to expand...

The Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to select a bushing a few thousandths smaller and use the expander that comes with their dies. Meaning push the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case neck.

I prefer using the Forster full length dies with their high mounted floating expanders. The Forster full length dies produce less neck runout than bushing dies.

Far too much of what benchrest shooters do with their custom rifles with tight neck chambers filters down to us with off the shelf factory rifles. Bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers where the neck does not expand as much as a factory SAAMI chamber. The more the case neck has to be reduced in diameter the greater the chance the floating bushing will induce neck runout.

I would advise any of you to read the Redding bushing die FAQ. And remember the bushing floats, and it can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the case neck. There is a reason why so many reloaders use a body die and the Lee collet die, and this is less neck runout. I prefer the Forster dies because I get the same or less neck runout.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

Below is the Forster full length die with their high mounted floating expander. The case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. This prevents the expander from pulling the neck off center and inducing neck runout.

CzNnpuh.jpg


If you think your Forster die is over working the neck Forster will hone the dies neck to your desired diameter..

 
bigedp51 said:
The Redding bushing die FAQ tells you if the neck thickness varies .002 or more to select a bushing a few thousandths smaller and use the expander that comes with their dies. Meaning push the neck thickness variations to the outside of the case neck.

I prefer using the Forster full length dies with their high mounted floating expanders. The Forster full length dies produce less neck runout than bushing dies.

Far too much of what benchrest shooters do with their custom rifles with tight neck chambers filters down to us with off the shelf factory rifles. Bushing dies work best with tight neck chambers where the neck does not expand as much as a factory SAAMI chamber. The more the case neck has to be reduced in diameter the greater the chance the floating bushing will induce neck runout.

I would advise any of you to read the Redding bushing die FAQ. And remember the bushing floats, and it can move from side to side and even tilt when sizing the case neck. There is a reason why so many reloaders use a body die and the Lee collet die, and this is less neck runout. I prefer the Forster dies because I get the same or less neck runout.

Tech Line & Tips (FAQs)
https://www.redding-reloading.com/tech-line-a-tips-faqs

Below is the Forster full length die with their high mounted floating expander. The case neck is held and centered in the neck of the die when the expander enters the case neck. This prevents the expander from pulling the neck off center and inducing neck runout.

CzNnpuh.jpg


If you think your Forster die is over working the neck Forster will hone the dies neck to your desired diameter..

Click to expand...


I have found with the the Lee collet die, Redding body die and a Forester seater that TIR is 0.0000-0.0005". I do skim turn the necks after the first firing and use this setting on the tool for subsequent skims as the brass flows into the neck/shoulder junction. Brass is annealed every cycle.

The above is just one aspect of a good 'bench rest' round. others are weigh sorting brass, then volume sort, then velocity sort, bullets, weighing powder to the nearest 0.02 grains. Check base to ogive lengths of loaded rounds (annealing really helps keeping the COL's consistent). Also hard seat the primers so the cup and anvil are close to or touching.

My results by these methods are generally good. In club competitions ; for 3 shots 6.25", 5 shots 4.00", 10 shots 8.00" these are with factory stock rifles at 1038 yards and are the best I've done.

It is obvious to me that the rifles , Steyr and Tikka, have their chamber to bore axis in very good alignment. This shows up as a low ES through out the bullets travel ( I have the ability to check velocities all the way out to 1000 yards), suffice to say a low ES at the muzzle does not always translate to a low ES at , say 500 yards or any place between muzzle and 1000 yards. Inconsistent damage to the bullet , thus affecting down range BC's leads to higher ES's will show up on the target.

SO, TIR of the cartridge should be as close to 0.0000" as possible but there other issues that will open up those groups, recognize what they are and plan for a repair or change in procedure.

I haven't discussed dwell time.
 
And as usual there may be a conflicting opinion about using the bushing dies. I asked Forster last wk why they hadn't built an FLS bushing die yet, production constraints was the answer.
Have a look at this, interesting story about the birth of the Redding FLS bushing S die.

Just add "Fuk" to the link, it is Erik Cortina talking to Speedy Gonzales about the Houston Whs experiments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kUywg2O
 
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I have a Forster trimmer for my "non" Lapua brass. I turn down the thicker side of the necks leaving the thinner side untouched. I then anneal using the salt bath method. I then run a FL Forster die and have great accuracy once a find the right load for a rifle. The rifles I shoot are not target guns, just quality hunting rifles. I can shoot really tight groups out to practical hunting distances. I have a few guns that will shoot 1/4 MOA with this method using Lapua brass, but mostly 1/2 MOA.
 
sharp shooter said:
I have a Forster trimmer for my "non" Lapua brass. I turn down the thicker side of the necks leaving the thinner side untouched. I then anneal using the salt bath method. I then run a FL Forster die and have great accuracy once a find the right load for a rifle. The rifles I shoot are not target guns, just quality hunting rifles. I can shoot really tight groups out to practical hunting distances. I have a few guns that will shoot 1/4 MOA with this method using Lapua brass, but mostly 1/2 MOA.
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Interesting to see the comment about salt bath annealing.
I wanted to see what it was about, and the most detailed evaluation I could find was here:
Salt Bath Annealing, Does it Work?
https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/
 
MartyK2500 said:
If you have a tight neck chamber, annealing without neck turning will get you nowhere...
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I could be mistaken, but I doubt there's any no neck turn 6.5 PRC reamers/chambers out there. Definitely not in a commercial rifle, which I suspect it would be based on the fact that it was a gift.
 
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Neck turning is pretty unnecessary in most cases, IMO.

Some benchrest shooters, like Alex Wheeler and some of his cohorts believe that neck turning is necessary to achieve utmost precision. Other's, I believe Bart Sauter being one of them, don't neck turn and have also set world records. So even in a discipline in which precision is the ultimate goal, there's not a consensus in whether neck turning is worth it or not.

As Martyk2500 mentions, if the chamber is setup as a tight neck/neck turn chamber, you are going to have to neck turn just for functionality/reliabilities sake. He unknowingly got a tight neck chamber for one of his more recent rifles, and went through those trials and tribulations. But I doubt your chamber is setup as a neck-turn chamber, as I mention in my post above.

There are many things that matter before neck turning does. I don't neck turn, don't care to spend the time to do so. My rifles shoot tiny groups without the need to neck turn, and like I stated above, world records have been set with no neck turn setups.

I would invest the money into a good powder thrower, like an autotrickler. That will make way more difference then neck turning, and one of the first things you should put money into. A good trimmer like a Giraud or Henderson is another worthwhile investment. After that, consider a good annealer like an AMP.
 
My first Forster was bought over 50 years ago when I had a 40XB in 6mm Remington.
Testing the thickness of the neck until a bullet would not go into the case neck after firing.
The Forster was available, that is what I bought and bought another one in time.
At first I milled the entire neck for that rifle but later with hunting rifles, about 2/3rd's of the neck showed the area removed.
This procedure has worked for me and to completely outside neck ream a 338 Win Mag might be counter productive.
 
kthomas said:
Neck turning is pretty unnecessary in most cases, IMO.

Some benchrest shooters, like Alex Wheeler and some of his cohorts believe that neck turning is necessary to achieve utmost precision. Other's, I believe Bart Sauter being one of them, don't neck turn and have also set world records. So even in a discipline in which precision is the ultimate goal, there's not a consensus in whether neck turning is worth it or not.

As Martyk2500 mentions, if the chamber is setup as a tight neck/neck turn chamber, you are going to have to neck turn just for functionality/reliabilities sake. He unknowingly got a tight neck chamber for one of his more recent rifles, and went through those trials and tribulations. But I doubt your chamber is setup as a neck-turn chamber, as I mention in my post above.

There are many things that matter before neck turning does. I don't neck turn, don't care to spend the time to do so. My rifles shoot tiny groups without the need to neck turn, and like I stated above, world records have been set with no neck turn setups.

I would invest the money into a good powder thrower, like an autotrickler. That will make way more difference then neck turning, and one of the first things you should put money into. A good trimmer like a Giraud or Henderson is another worthwhile investment. After that, consider a good annealer like an AMP.
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If you buy good brass you don't need to neck turn(for my purposes). But if you have ####ty brass and want to neck size with a Lee collet die you may need to. The hornady brass for my 204 was terrible. I find I have to trim less after turning the ####ty brass. Some of the brass I have turned has an unbelievable neck wall thickness from one side to the other. I found that after firing the brass with uneven neck thickness, the brass would stretch very unevenly and I would have to trim every firing otherwise I would see runout do to an uneven case mouth. Sizing and seating an uneven case mouth leads to run out. Like I said earlier, I only shave the fat side of the neck down on the pourer brass. I have never turned down quality brass.

I have also realized since my neck turning days that it is unnecessary for my purposes which is plinking to 400 off the bench with my hunting rifles. Especially due to the fact that I pretty much only FL size with Bonanza and Forster dies. Talk about good bye to run out.
 
kthomas said:
Neck turning is pretty unnecessary in most cases, IMO.

Some benchrest shooters, like Alex Wheeler and some of his cohorts believe that neck turning is necessary to achieve utmost precision. Other's, I believe Bart Sauter being one of them, don't neck turn and have also set world records. So even in a discipline in which precision is the ultimate goal, there's not a consensus in whether neck turning is worth it or not.

As Martyk2500 mentions, if the chamber is setup as a tight neck/neck turn chamber, you are going to have to neck turn just for functionality/reliabilities sake. He unknowingly got a tight neck chamber for one of his more recent rifles, and went through those trials and tribulations. But I doubt your chamber is setup as a neck-turn chamber, as I mention in my post above.

There are many things that matter before neck turning does. I don't neck turn, don't care to spend the time to do so. My rifles shoot tiny groups without the need to neck turn, and like I stated above, world records have been set with no neck turn setups.

I would invest the money into a good powder thrower, like an autotrickler. That will make way more difference then neck turning, and one of the first things you should put money into. A good trimmer like a Giraud or Henderson is another worthwhile investment. After that, consider a good annealer like an AMP.
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I completely agree with the statement about investing in something other than a neck turning set up. Lapua brass, Forester dies, annealer, powder measure, etc. Good three in one trimmer, etc.
 
I have what we might call some fairly well developed opinions about neck turning.

First off, I am a huge fan of it, but only in the right situation.

If you have a sloppy factory chamber, I just don't see the point. It will help maintain better neck tension but it will end there. Necks will just be extra sloppy and will provide no significant accuracy advantage.

Neck turning is great when paired with a tight neck chamber. This way you can tune the neck clearance to what you consider ideal.

As for runout... Dies do not meaningfully control runout between the neck and body... regardless of who may claim otherwise.

The very best way to minimize body to neck runout is to minimize the amount of neck sizing being done. Think of it this way... if you are reducing the neck diameter by 0.015" then you could induce up to 0.015" of runout, but you could not induce 0.015" of runout if you are only reducing the neck diameter by 0.003"

Then we get into the reamer / chamber design... A chamber for a 308 Winchester that is designed for the 155 Palma will have virtually no free bore. The bullet is just too short. Such a chamber will rely entirely upon the neck concentricity to align the bullet to the rifling. This will benefit greatly by neck turning combined with a tight neck chamber.

By contrast, lets consider the same 308 Winchest set up with a chamber for the 185 grain Berger Jugernaut seated so the base of the bullet is forward of the neck to shoulder donut... In this case there's a ton of freebore... That freebore will align the bullet regardless of how much runout there is between the neck and case. To this point... The freebore diameter is relevant as it must be close to the bullet diameter to be effective in this role. On this note, too tight may pose a restriction, but too loose will not help accuracy.

My competition guns all have a tight neck chamber and long freebore. This way I can do it all. I run mostly long heavy bullets. I turn the necks so they are fairly snug, but not dangerous... This ensures alignment at the neck, regardless of the benefit of a tightish freebore. This way I get the best of both worlds, but nothing is so tight that I have concerns about anything binding.

One more thing... I always always always use a sizing bushing that is 0.001" smaller than my neck in the chamber as a go / no go gage. I slide that bushing over every loaded round to ensure there is no binding. That way I am certain than no cartridge gets stuffed into the chamber that has not passed this simple test.

How much runout do I find on loaded rounds?... Pretty much none. If I was to measure it, I would use a 0.0001" dial indicator but even then it will not move much.
 
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I have competed with lapua brass for a long time (as well as a range of better brands). I also outside neck turn for any rifle I want to get the most performance out of.

Consider... those that outside neck turn, rarely ever discuss if they should continue. They see the benefit every time they turn the necks... and yes, they will continue to touch up the necks on a regular basis... and yes, they are likely to see brass removed each time they turn.

Brass flows EVERY firing so what you have now is not the same next firing, nor the firing after..... Lapua or otherwise.

Jerry
 
huntingfamily said:
Good points Maple57.
I have a tight chambered custom rifle that I must neck turn brass for. Yes, I run Lapua brass...
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I've gotten away from Lapua since it's so expensive. Instead I buy several thousand rounds of once fired military brass like IVI or Lake City... Preferably Lake City.

I full process all of it, starting with crimped primer removal. I found swaging primer pockets to be preferred. I size the case twice, once in a regular FL die, then once again in a small base die, then anneal and wash in stainless media.

I then write the weight on every singe case and then sort into lots of 100. In then end, I'll get several lots of 100 that are within 1/10th of a grain in weight.

Once fire formed, they are at least as consistent as Lapua. Sure it takes some time, but cost wise, I get 10 cases to every one of Lapua. The odd lots where there's a 3 or 4/10 grain spread per 100 are used for non competition loads, but even 3 or 4/10s isnt bad. The more you buy, the more you will get of the same weight.

Painful as it sounds, I would recommend this process to anyone interested in hand loading. There's nothing like the repetition to get the feel of it, and the time to refine the process for large volumes. Later on, lots of 100 are easy.
 
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I've been a hand-loader since 1982, and only recently I started to outside neck turn and inside neck ream. Accuracy was a little more consistent, however, what I notice the most is that bullet seating tension was very consistent accompanied with low extreme spread. Precision reloading is a great aid for consistent accuracy and gives confidence to the hunter/shooter.
 
In regards to outside turning necks, I always thought that it would have the potential to release the bullet straighter. Kind of like a runout part 2 preventative maintenance.
 
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