If you are going to be competing in provincial rifle matches, check the association and/or match rules as muzzle brakes may not be allowed..........the reasoning is that the brake disturbs the shooters beside you on the firing line..........
Need advice, new precision rifle shooter
- Thread starter MartyK2500
- Start date
To be honest this will be a lonely thing, IPSC with all the nice competitiors is fun and all, but this will be my alone time firearm.
Edit, small update, just got some atrs rings and 20moa rail from EE. Funny thing alberta tactical has 2 screws per ring compared to 4/6 the competition uses. I read reviews they are supposed to get the job done.
Edit, small update, just got some atrs rings and 20moa rail from EE. Funny thing alberta tactical has 2 screws per ring compared to 4/6 the competition uses. I read reviews they are supposed to get the job done.
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One small piece of advice for you; this is a type of match that involves a lot of position shooting and shooting off of barriers. So, you want your rifle to be balanced. If its barrel heavy, you will struggle a lot with it.
This is the 308 I used to shoot this type of match with when I lived in the US (back when the 260 was just starting to get popular and a 308 was still competitive).
It balances itself at the trail. You don't ever need to fight with it if you're resting it on a barrier or even shooting it off-hand, standing.
This is the 308 I used to shoot this type of match with when I lived in the US (back when the 260 was just starting to get popular and a 308 was still competitive).
It balances itself at the trail. You don't ever need to fight with it if you're resting it on a barrier or even shooting it off-hand, standing.
Very nice rifle, i cannot recognize specs to it since im new, but looking good!
I get ya on the balance, i had bought an armalite M15 national match last year.
I was benchresting it, my local range only offered 200M and that is why im going to NR bolt, i know crown land i could shoot up to 600-700M.
All that to say the armalite had very light furniture/stock, but had an effin heavy barrel/steel free float tube.
That rifle would pull you down real bad. A2 flash hider was more than enough to keep muzzle from rising
I do get the feeling, that the 10TR, will have a plastick/hollow butt stock.
At that price it would be too much to ask for more.
I get ya on the balance, i had bought an armalite M15 national match last year.
I was benchresting it, my local range only offered 200M and that is why im going to NR bolt, i know crown land i could shoot up to 600-700M.
All that to say the armalite had very light furniture/stock, but had an effin heavy barrel/steel free float tube.
That rifle would pull you down real bad. A2 flash hider was more than enough to keep muzzle from rising
I do get the feeling, that the 10TR, will have a plastick/hollow butt stock.
At that price it would be too much to ask for more.
Schecter 81
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton Area
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Schecter 81
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton Area
The only place you find people saying there is no difference is on the internet. The people winning the PRS matches are doing it in real life, not on the internet. And they have nearly all switched away from MOA scopes.
The only reason you would ever need to think about an inch or a cm with an FFP scope is for ranging (object size). And no savvy shooter sits there and does the math to figure it out during a match, they print out a card like this and put it on their forearm so they only need to take a glance at it without getting put of their shooting position.
So it really doesn't matter is you're more comfortable with inches and yards. Makes no difference with a mil scope. None whatsoever.
And this is way faster than putting the rifle down and taking out a range finder... especially if you're trying to range a target with nothing around it. If you aren't steady, you get readings of stuff behind the target.
The really savvy shooters will put their come-ups right into the table instead of a distance...
I really like that range card. I thought the OP had expressed that he wasn't looking to compete. If that is the case and ranging on the fly is something required, maybe Mil may be more practical. I don't shoot tactical matches. I just shoot pieces of steel really far away. I was just saying that both methods work just fine and to understand the reason you are choosing a reticle. Vortex does a great job of offering great reticles in both MOA and MIL, which makes it easy if a guy is settled on Vortex. Many manufacturers have pretty limited selections on MIL reticles until you spend a lot more money. I think a lot depends on the final end use.
I'm gonna have to make up a card like that for me in MOA, but out a hell of a lot further. Great info Kombayotch!
The tables are easy to make in Excel. I have ones that are out to much further distances with 0.1 mil increments that I use in matches that you shoot with a partner. The spotter uses them because they're impractical for the shooter to use. Too much data...
While his intent may not be to compete right away, it was clear from reading his posts that the kind of shooting he was interested in was the kind being done in PRS. And if he's having someone teach him, he would probably like to try it. That style of shooting emphasizes both speed and precision. While there are stages in a match that involve slow, deliberate shooting, they also have a lot of position shooting and shooting off of barriers, and there is almost always moving targets (which are never at the same distance or the same speed). Time is always a factor in some way. It's a style of shooting that is practical, and you also develop skills that carry over to things like hunting.
Having a reticle that you can always use has a lot of useful applications. Ranging is not the main utility of the reticle. You'll use in it situation where you don't have time to dial, in lieu of dialing. They show this in the "Art of the Precision Rifle" video, but they take it to an extreme. If you have the time to dial, you're going to dial because it's more precise.
The reticle also allows you to reduce the amount of data you need to remember or carry on your cards. This is especially true in some situations like for moving targets (useful for hunting).
Lets say you wanted to lead a moving target using a linear distance. You would need to hold a different amount for each distance and for each target speed.
And that's a table of distances evenly divisible by 100. What about distance in between? You have to figure those out on top of that.
Here's a trick with the reticle: if you use its hash marks to lead the target, the lead in mils is the virtually the same for a given speed of target over a large distance. Here is the ballistics table for a 1.5 MPH target:
Notice the lead in mils stays almost constant? Well, that means that instead of using the first table, you can use one like this:
Much easier to remember isn't it? Or easier to read off of a card on your forearm... All you have to do is estimate the speed of the target, distance is not a factor. Even if you need to adjust a little for the faster targets at further distances, its still less info to remember or look up.
This isn't something I came up with, its well known and taught at places like Rifles Only. Companies have even integrated it into their reticle:
Look at the numbers above the horizontal crosshair and look at my table. Those numbers aren't just for the quick ranging features, they're also used for leads on moving targets. You lead a 6 MPH target ~3.9 mils (depends on caliber and load). Look where the 6 is on the vertical crosshair! Look at the other numbers.
Also... notice that this is a mil based scope and they've implemented these little shortcuts in inches, miles per hour and yards. Americans think in inches, yet most of the shooters making it to the PRS finale have switched to mils. Mils are faster and easier regardless of what system you're more comfortable with.
Know what MTC turrets are? They're turrets with a heavier click every 1 mil or 1 MOA. They let you dial without looking at the turret. That's useful to military shooters using nightvision, when they can't see the numbers on the turrets. Or, maybe they can't raise their head to look because it will give them away. It's a useful feature for competition shooters because its lets you do the majority of your dialing without looking at the turret, which is sometimes useful in PRS type matches. You only need to look at it near the end of the adjustment (after you feel the last MTC). The MOA number is much bigger. If I need to dial 6.2 mil, I only need to count 6 MTC clicks. The equivalent MOA would require counting 21 MTC clicks. Not practical to use without looking at the turret.
Before they had MTC: How many clicks in 3.9 mil: 39. How about 2.2 mil? 22 clicks. Now try that with 18.75 MOA as fast as you can. How many clicks?
FFP and mils do make a difference when speed is needed.
While his intent may not be to compete right away, it was clear from reading his posts that the kind of shooting he was interested in was the kind being done in PRS. And if he's having someone teach him, he would probably like to try it. That style of shooting emphasizes both speed and precision. While there are stages in a match that involve slow, deliberate shooting, they also have a lot of position shooting and shooting off of barriers, and there is almost always moving targets (which are never at the same distance or the same speed). Time is always a factor in some way. It's a style of shooting that is practical, and you also develop skills that carry over to things like hunting.
Having a reticle that you can always use has a lot of useful applications. Ranging is not the main utility of the reticle. You'll use in it situation where you don't have time to dial, in lieu of dialing. They show this in the "Art of the Precision Rifle" video, but they take it to an extreme. If you have the time to dial, you're going to dial because it's more precise.
The reticle also allows you to reduce the amount of data you need to remember or carry on your cards. This is especially true in some situations like for moving targets (useful for hunting).
Lets say you wanted to lead a moving target using a linear distance. You would need to hold a different amount for each distance and for each target speed.
And that's a table of distances evenly divisible by 100. What about distance in between? You have to figure those out on top of that.
Here's a trick with the reticle: if you use its hash marks to lead the target, the lead in mils is the virtually the same for a given speed of target over a large distance. Here is the ballistics table for a 1.5 MPH target:
Notice the lead in mils stays almost constant? Well, that means that instead of using the first table, you can use one like this:
Much easier to remember isn't it? Or easier to read off of a card on your forearm... All you have to do is estimate the speed of the target, distance is not a factor. Even if you need to adjust a little for the faster targets at further distances, its still less info to remember or look up.
This isn't something I came up with, its well known and taught at places like Rifles Only. Companies have even integrated it into their reticle:
Look at the numbers above the horizontal crosshair and look at my table. Those numbers aren't just for the quick ranging features, they're also used for leads on moving targets. You lead a 6 MPH target ~3.9 mils (depends on caliber and load). Look where the 6 is on the vertical crosshair! Look at the other numbers.
Also... notice that this is a mil based scope and they've implemented these little shortcuts in inches, miles per hour and yards. Americans think in inches, yet most of the shooters making it to the PRS finale have switched to mils. Mils are faster and easier regardless of what system you're more comfortable with.
Know what MTC turrets are? They're turrets with a heavier click every 1 mil or 1 MOA. They let you dial without looking at the turret. That's useful to military shooters using nightvision, when they can't see the numbers on the turrets. Or, maybe they can't raise their head to look because it will give them away. It's a useful feature for competition shooters because its lets you do the majority of your dialing without looking at the turret, which is sometimes useful in PRS type matches. You only need to look at it near the end of the adjustment (after you feel the last MTC). The MOA number is much bigger. If I need to dial 6.2 mil, I only need to count 6 MTC clicks. The equivalent MOA would require counting 21 MTC clicks. Not practical to use without looking at the turret.
Before they had MTC: How many clicks in 3.9 mil: 39. How about 2.2 mil? 22 clicks. Now try that with 18.75 MOA as fast as you can. How many clicks?
FFP and mils do make a difference when speed is needed.
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Schecter 81, to be honest I still do not feel the need/or wish to compete, but like to train like I would.
I very much like the idea of adjusting on the fly with less tools (ie range finder) as possible. I am guessing this is gonna be a huge plus coyote hunting too when I do!
Kombayotch, man you do have nice information to read on. Thanks for posting in this thread, seriously!
The more I read about PRS, the more it kinda reminds me of IPSC but with precision rifles. Sure the splits aint as fast but we're not talking 6-30yds here!
My Savage 10TR is ready to pickup at post office!
ATRS 20MOA rail and 30mm rings are in the mail!
Harris bipod I the mail!
Vortex PST mrad and muzzle break yet to be ordered...
Will probably go break it in with a cheap scope this weekend, the man that will teach me precision, told me to use this procedure to break in
1 shot, clean fouling, 2 shots, clean fouling, 3 shots, clean fouling, 4 shots, clean fouling, 5 shots, clean fouling
What is you're break in method?
I very much like the idea of adjusting on the fly with less tools (ie range finder) as possible. I am guessing this is gonna be a huge plus coyote hunting too when I do!
Kombayotch, man you do have nice information to read on. Thanks for posting in this thread, seriously!
The more I read about PRS, the more it kinda reminds me of IPSC but with precision rifles. Sure the splits aint as fast but we're not talking 6-30yds here!
My Savage 10TR is ready to pickup at post office!
ATRS 20MOA rail and 30mm rings are in the mail!
Harris bipod I the mail!
Vortex PST mrad and muzzle break yet to be ordered...
Will probably go break it in with a cheap scope this weekend, the man that will teach me precision, told me to use this procedure to break in
1 shot, clean fouling, 2 shots, clean fouling, 3 shots, clean fouling, 4 shots, clean fouling, 5 shots, clean fouling
What is you're break in method?
I like to think of it as more like IDPA. lol!
It really depends on the match. There are stages that look like an F-Class match without sighters of shot markers, for example. There are others that look like an IPSC/IDPA stage. PRS is an organization that came about to try and bring all of these type of match under the same umbrella. All of the matches that make up PRS used to be just stand alone matches. PRS came up with a system that allowed the scores to be compared so that shooters in different parts of the country could be compared so that they could determine who the best 50 shooters in the country are. Only those shooters get invited to the PRS finale. These matches are more like IPSC/IDPA in the sense that no two matches ever look alike. The COF (Course Of Fire) is always different, just like in IPSC/IDPA. The reasoning is that a good shooter should learn a skill that can be applied to many situations and not just one specific situation. It shows the shooter can adapt and not just be an expert at a specific COF.
I do 1 shot/clean till the heavy copper stops, then I do a couple 5 shots/clean, then I start shooting normally.
It really depends on the match. There are stages that look like an F-Class match without sighters of shot markers, for example. There are others that look like an IPSC/IDPA stage. PRS is an organization that came about to try and bring all of these type of match under the same umbrella. All of the matches that make up PRS used to be just stand alone matches. PRS came up with a system that allowed the scores to be compared so that shooters in different parts of the country could be compared so that they could determine who the best 50 shooters in the country are. Only those shooters get invited to the PRS finale. These matches are more like IPSC/IDPA in the sense that no two matches ever look alike. The COF (Course Of Fire) is always different, just like in IPSC/IDPA. The reasoning is that a good shooter should learn a skill that can be applied to many situations and not just one specific situation. It shows the shooter can adapt and not just be an expert at a specific COF.
I do 1 shot/clean till the heavy copper stops, then I do a couple 5 shots/clean, then I start shooting normally.
MartyK - I guess if you are paying someone to teach you then it makes sense to take his advice BUT may I respectfully suggest you do some reading re barrel break in. To say that this is a controversial issue would be an understatement - it isn't just 'lazy shooters' who argue it is unnecessary and actually causes more harm than good; check out (for example) Gale McMillian's comments ( yes, same McMillian of the famous stocks and who was also a barrel maker ).
Schecter 81
Regular
- Location
- Edmonton Area
Kombayotch, Holy Crap!! That is by far the best information I have recieved on MIL vs MOA. Now you have me wanting to make the conversion. That all really makes sense. I will we had a more tactical matches available for us to shoot out here. The only one that I am really familiar with is Landy and I haven't made it to one yet. Now I really need to think about a switch. I was thinking about selling one of my NXS's to upgrade to the ATACR, maybe it needs to go MIL.
If you go mil, you want FFP. They work together.
For things like movers or fast shooting at multiple distances, you rarely do these at a high magnification. Doesn't work with a small field of view. You waste too much time searching for the targets. For this type of shooting, the reticle hashes are used for almost everything, so you want them to always be accurate. One magnification will not work well in all situations.
For things like movers or fast shooting at multiple distances, you rarely do these at a high magnification. Doesn't work with a small field of view. You waste too much time searching for the targets. For this type of shooting, the reticle hashes are used for almost everything, so you want them to always be accurate. One magnification will not work well in all situations.
I will research more on barrel break in. I do intend to follow the best procedure possible, but the one shot one clean method until no copper fouling seems to be the mainstream one.
I just received rifle, so far so good. I am happy my top rail came off so easy, there were some reports of some rails being seized and breaking screws in the receiver.
Turns out that stock rail is an EGW 0MOA, will put on sale as soon as my ATRS 20MOA comes in and confirm fitment. Will red Loctite the new rail, this one aint coming out!
Buttstock is a joke, a square piece of white foam inside. Will fill with dense construction urethane, give a bit of meat for when or if I drill in an adjustale cheek rest.
Had to strip it all, oil was very gunky. Not as much as cosmoline but still. Now that everything is out I am tempted to use masking tape to hide aluminium/inside of stock and give 'er some flat OD krylon, giving it a longgg thought. It would stand out from others at least.
Edit I have just noticed my front sling swivels are fastened in the aluminium, that's connected with the actual bedding instead of isolating them.
Can this cause an issue when torquing a sling or resting a bipod?
I just received rifle, so far so good. I am happy my top rail came off so easy, there were some reports of some rails being seized and breaking screws in the receiver.
Turns out that stock rail is an EGW 0MOA, will put on sale as soon as my ATRS 20MOA comes in and confirm fitment. Will red Loctite the new rail, this one aint coming out!
Buttstock is a joke, a square piece of white foam inside. Will fill with dense construction urethane, give a bit of meat for when or if I drill in an adjustale cheek rest.
Had to strip it all, oil was very gunky. Not as much as cosmoline but still. Now that everything is out I am tempted to use masking tape to hide aluminium/inside of stock and give 'er some flat OD krylon, giving it a longgg thought. It would stand out from others at least.
Edit I have just noticed my front sling swivels are fastened in the aluminium, that's connected with the actual bedding instead of isolating them.
Can this cause an issue when torquing a sling or resting a bipod?
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It shouldn't if there is enough material. Hard to say though without seeing the stock.
Looks like that model already has a threaded barrel. Coretac Solutions sells some brakes that don't require any timing or machining of the barrel. Might be a good option for you...
btw, I ran across a pic that shows a typical gauntlet people use for carrying their information on (dope, ranging cards, mover lead card, etc...)
Some people sew velcro to their sleeve. Then they laminate their cards and put the other side of the velcro on the bottom. You can get the velcro with a sticky back side at the dollar store. I find it easier to have it on the left arm since you don't have to turn your head as much. The bottom pick also shows a Wiebad Tac-Pad. They also make a thicker one called the "pump pillow". These are used for support when shooting over barriers, rooftops, etc...
You can also use a small backpack for this purpose, which is more practical in real life.
You will also see people putting them under their rifles when shooting with the stock on the barrier:
The reason for this is that if you put the stock directly on the barrier, it will jump when you fire, making it harder to spot your shots. The guy above with the AR has a front bag that velcros onto the rifle. Coretac Solutions has a new bag called the "CoreBox" that works extremely well for this. That is that is on my rifle in my earlier post. You might need to remove a few stitches on the strap to get it over the rifle though. I did.
Looks like that model already has a threaded barrel. Coretac Solutions sells some brakes that don't require any timing or machining of the barrel. Might be a good option for you...
btw, I ran across a pic that shows a typical gauntlet people use for carrying their information on (dope, ranging cards, mover lead card, etc...)
Some people sew velcro to their sleeve. Then they laminate their cards and put the other side of the velcro on the bottom. You can get the velcro with a sticky back side at the dollar store. I find it easier to have it on the left arm since you don't have to turn your head as much. The bottom pick also shows a Wiebad Tac-Pad. They also make a thicker one called the "pump pillow". These are used for support when shooting over barriers, rooftops, etc...
You can also use a small backpack for this purpose, which is more practical in real life.
You will also see people putting them under their rifles when shooting with the stock on the barrier:
The reason for this is that if you put the stock directly on the barrier, it will jump when you fire, making it harder to spot your shots. The guy above with the AR has a front bag that velcros onto the rifle. Coretac Solutions has a new bag called the "CoreBox" that works extremely well for this. That is that is on my rifle in my earlier post. You might need to remove a few stitches on the strap to get it over the rifle though. I did.
The AR pic reminded me of another tip. See how he is pushing his magwel into the barrier? That is the reason they make bottom metal like the PTG Stealh and the Surgeon bottom metal. Its so that you aren't loading your mag when you push up against the barrier or your front bag. That can lead to misfeeds if the front of the mag gets pushed down. AICS mags only lock in the rear. The bottom metal either butts against the barrier, or you have enough support that it isn't an issue with these bottom metals.
PTG makes the Stealth for nearly every rifle if you are thinking of using AICS mags in the rifle.
PTG makes the Stealth for nearly every rifle if you are thinking of using AICS mags in the rifle.
Just thought i'd give a small and last update on this thread.
Big thanks to Kombayotch for all the info, I have saved the thread in my favorites and will refer to it in the near/intermediate future, re-reading all this once I actually start shooting this platform will get the info soaked in good!
For scope I am most probably going with Vortex Viper PST 6-24 mil/mil FFP, but have decided it would be best to wait until January for this purchase. I have just spent in this platform which I don't shoot usually (as I keep shooting my pistols and such) and with Christmas around the bend it will be safer to get a Xmas funds savings going about now.
This is where I am at in my beginner rig anyways,
Harris bipod,TacPro cheek rest, ATRS 20moa rail/Medium rings/Muzzle brake, now just missing glass
Big thanks to Kombayotch for all the info, I have saved the thread in my favorites and will refer to it in the near/intermediate future, re-reading all this once I actually start shooting this platform will get the info soaked in good!
For scope I am most probably going with Vortex Viper PST 6-24 mil/mil FFP, but have decided it would be best to wait until January for this purchase. I have just spent in this platform which I don't shoot usually (as I keep shooting my pistols and such) and with Christmas around the bend it will be safer to get a Xmas funds savings going about now.
This is where I am at in my beginner rig anyways,
Harris bipod,TacPro cheek rest, ATRS 20moa rail/Medium rings/Muzzle brake, now just missing glass
For those of us that don't live near big, quality, sporting goods stores these things are also available via ebay and Amazon.
There will be a local B.C. made wrist data holder coming out soon........
If fact we have just finished up the first few Rifle Barricade pads we are now going to make.......
Thx. SKBY.
Skullboy, i love buying CDN made (hence all the ATRS accs on the rifle and tac pro from ontario)
Since i will start shooting early 2015, once your data wrist pad is done send me a pm please, i will also look into the other accessorie/s i.e. Barricade pad.
Thanks
Since i will start shooting early 2015, once your data wrist pad is done send me a pm please, i will also look into the other accessorie/s i.e. Barricade pad.
Thanks
