Need help identifying old double barrel 12 ga.

T

TheArmyMan204

Regular
Rating - 100%
6   0   0
Location
Winnipeg
Hey guys, not sure if posting in the right forum but here it goes. My grandpa recently gave me this old shotgun. He thinks his dad brought it to Canada from Europe when they came here in the early 1900's

The only text I can find is on the top of the barrels and it's says "W. Richards London Laminated?? Steel" I can't quite make out the second last word.

Hopefully you guys can shed some light on what I got and maybe even a value. I'm definitely not going to sell it because of the family history. Thanks in advance for help.

20161030_131613_zpsqybmdhoc.jpg



20161030_131640_zpsvk5cafvk.jpg


20161030_131704_zpsclizuuap.jpg


20161030_131720_zpsmdput61a.jpg
 
Remove the forend, remove the barrels and inspect the bottom of the barrel breeches and the flat of the receiver.
Are the proof marks Belgian (E over LG) or British (crossed sceptres)?
Westley Richards was a prominent British gunmaker. This gun is not a Westley Richards.
Not unusual for Belgian guns to have a false name, trying to capitalize on it.
Or, the gun could be British, by William Richards.
 
W. Richards was a trade name used on shotguns manufactured by Henri Pieper of Liège, Belgium and imported by large sporting goods distributors such as H. & D. Folsom Arms Company in the period 1860-1898. His company and its successors operated until the mid-1950.
You should have "ELG" (Belgium proofmark) somewhere under the barrels
They rank from $150 to 450 and the shape yours is in around $250.
And caution when trying it out; these were usually 12ga 2 1/2" , not todays common 12ga 2 3/4".
Hope that helps a little.

CG
 
The detective work can be fun even if there is not a lot of monetary value there. Have a look at this fellow's site he set up just to publish what he found out about similar gun: http://vpnavy01.com/websites/shotgun/index1.html
By comparing the proof marks or yours against the nicely documented ones of his you might find a match. If that's the case it is a Belgian gun from a company making hay off the reputation of Westley Richards, English gunmaker. Apparently not the only possibility, though.
If you post clear photos of the markings on water table and barrel flats I'm sure someone here can help you.
Good luck and let us know what you learn!
Here's an example stolen from the web (is that bad?) just as an indication of the types of things that can be decoded. The actual stamps vary from country to country and even between guns produced in any one country according to the era of the gun's production. To add to the confusion, sometimes barrels were shipped to be proofed in a country other than that of manufacture.
 
Haha ok thanks guys. I'll try to inspect the barrels when I get a chance. Ya I don't think I'll be firing or selling this. It's pretty cool having a shotgun that my great grandpa brought across the ocean.
 
That's a beautiful old shotgun. From the photos,it looks like it has "damascus" barrels,so,be very careful if you decide to shoot it. You may be wise to have it appraised for value in the event that you may decide to refurbish/refinish at a later date. The value of old guns can be destroyed by refinishing. Always check,first.
 
Trimmer 905 said:
From the photos,it looks like it has "damascus" barrels,so,be very careful if you decide to shoot it. You may be wise to have it appraised for value in the event that you may decide to refurbish/refinish at a later date. The value of old guns can be destroyed by refinishing. Always check,first.
Click to expand...

I am sure the barrels are laminated (damascus) but as long as the bores are not deeply pitted and the gun is reasonably tight, it is probably safe to shoot with black powder loads. Bottom line is seek advice from a knowledgeable person who is experienced with damascus barreled guns. I shoot damascus barreled shotguns considerably more than I shoot steel barreled ones. Also if the proof marks are british, there was a english William Richards who produced mostly (I think) economy grade shotguns and who is no relation to William Wesley Richards. If the gun were mine, I would not hesitate to refinish the barrels to bring back the damascus pattern, assuming the gun is currently shootable. I think the gun, if english, is in the $200 to $350 range and I doubt you would lose any resale value by a good refinishing job

cheers mooncoon
 
It's Belgian I owned the exact same one in fact when I saw this I thought you'd bought mine.. the Belgians in an attempt to lure more people into buying their guns used popular British manufacturers names on their guns.
 
Cork the ends of both barrels and fill them up with alcohol or a very thin oil and let it set for awhile if there's any pinholes in the Damascus the fluid will seep through and you shouldn't shoot it. If you use alcohol swab the bores perfectly dry after you empty them and oil them up immediately.
 
That old guns only worth 400$ tops owned and sold quite a number of Belgian guns, so if the Damascus is tight (definitely do the test I described above) just shoot it and use it, or hang it up on the wall.
 
tula said:
It's Belgian I owned the exact same one in fact when I saw this I thought you'd bought mine.. the Belgians in an attempt to lure more people into buying their guns used popular British manufacturers names on their guns.
Click to expand...

the proof marks will tell the tale. It is more or less true to say that you cannot tell a Belgian gun from and inexpensive British gun from its outside appearance. A slight qualification is that if you scratch the top rib joint to the barrel and the rib is brazed on, the gun is Belgian, if soldered on the gun is probably British. It is far easier and more reliable to look at the proof marks on the bottom of the barrels and on the water table of the receiver

cheers mooncoon
 
for sure it s belgian
a got a cape gun belgium made 12/ and very rare 35 win sxs 2 triggers and external hammers but not a damascus barrel
35 win i got the nitro proof mark and funny thing is the 12 gauge is not nitro proof so i have to use 12 gauge black powder shell 2 1/2
 
picked up a very similar Belgian sxs a couple of years ago. paid 100$ + 20rds 7.62 x 39 for it. I load black powder or pyrodex in old plastic shotgun shells for it. I`d get brass, but those are too expensive for the amount I shoot it. I get 2-3 uses from each shell, mileage varies. the way it shoulders makes it really hard to miss what you are shooting at.
I have another Belgian that I`m restocking just for fun and to have another SXS, finally found replacement locks that are not worn out. I think it will become a nice coach gun
 
The cool part of the story is the family lineage. I have a 12-ga similar to one my grandfather has in a photo of him and his farm manager holding up a frozen coyote. The original firearm disappeared a long time ago.
 
I own my great-great uncle's Neumann Bros (Belgium) double barrel 12 ga. and I like to call it the "family" shotgun, a marriage matchmaker for 4 generations so far.
When my Dad returned from the war his great uncle offered him one of the two guns he owned and my Dad chose the shotgun. The other firearm was a Sharps "Old Reliable " which went to the NB Museum collection. I was around 15 yrs old when a custodian at the museum allowed me to handle the Sharps and of course when I got home I challenged my father on the choice he had made, only to have it patiently explained to me that my father had wished to hunt ducks, not buffalo. Regardless of the difference in collector value the shotgun remains a much appreciated family heirloom.
 
This is a very old thread and the original poster disappeared, probably disappointed that his prized family heirloom " Westley Richards" is not what he thought it was . I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that this is another Belgian clunker, even though "W. Richards" was one of the deceptive names they used the Belgians didn't normally include "London" on the rib inscription with this name. The shape of the fences, the engraving pattern and coverage, shape of stock and forend and hammers suggest British. I have had several of these guns that I mistakenly thought at first were Belgian until I checked the proof marks, lo and behold! Birmingham!
W Richards of Liverpool and many other provincial makers provided a basic inexpensive model that looked exactly like this, and they brought in Belgian barrels and also rough forged actions to make some of their basic guns. Many also sold complete Belgian made guns with their own brand, which of course required British proofs but may also have Belgian Provisional proof.
Like the Shadow, only the proof marks know.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom