Need some help with family shotgun

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iconix

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Hello,

Wondering if someone can help me out? I begged and begged and begged for this shotgun and it is finally mine!!!! But I know very little about it and would like to get it restored to usable conditions. I would love to hunt with it just once. Ever since I was young I wanted to try this rough looking beauty. The crest on it is my family crest and the initials we believe is my great great great.......grandfather Colonel George E. Laidlaw http://angloboerwarmuseum.com/Boer70t_hero21_laidlaw.html http://canadianarchaeology.com/caa/node/1803

So can someone tell me a good gunsmith/restoration expert in Ontario? I really want to get this fixed up and have it in a nice gun case. Would also like to get it appraised so I can insure it. Before anyone asks... This gun will NEVER be for sale and it will never leave my family.

Anyways... Here some pictures- http://s77.photobucket.com/user/iconix22/library/family%20shotgun?sort=3&page=1

Any help will be greatly appreciated.
 
From the pics it doesn't look like it needs restoration to me. It could use a good cleaning by someone who knows what they are doing. W&C Scott is a higher grade English maker. Be sure to check chamber length before thinking of shooting it. You should post pics of the proof marks on the action and barrel flats and someone here can tell you chamber length and whether mild smokeless is safe. Looks like twist barrels and should be looked over closely for pits before thinking about shooting. I wouldn't guess on value but restoration will lower value in my opinion. Nice gun.
 
I'm with Mike, leave it be. More experienced hands than I will chime in, but a little non-invasive additives would probably be sufficient ( e.i. Gun oil, Murphy oil for the wood).
 
Nice looking old gun. Restoration on vintage English guns is a bit different than on North American guns. The English had no issue with sending guns back on a regular basis to be "freshened up, repaired if necessary or just maintained. They believed a good looking, well maintained gun was better than having a gun with a well worn finish, cracks, dings, rusting etc. So a restored English gun is not quite frowned upon like a North American gun might be. In my opinion, I would sooner have a properly restored English gun than one that is well worn.The biggest things I would be looking for in regards to your gun as far as shooting are the condition of the bores, dents in the barrels, is the gun tight and on face, have the chambers been lengthened and what is barrel wall thickness. If you can't check any of these I would have a competent smith check it out who is used to working on doubles. If it checks out there is no reason you can't shoot it. It may require low pressure loads and short shells if it only has 2 1/2" chambers. However, these shells are available. As far as refinishing the wood and refinishing the bluing etc. that is a decision you will have to make. However, understand that in many cases, if a gun requires restoration you may have more invested in it when finished than you could sell it for. But if you don't plan on selling that really isn't an issue. If interested, send me a pm and I can give you info on someone in Ontario who restores these.
 
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I agree you do not want to restore this .a good cleaning and a inspection by a smith is in order it could have 2,5 inch chambers ,and you may need to find some shells that are made for the old classics in 2,5 inch .I believe thy even make then in black powder ,a smith will be able to fill you in on all you need to know about the old girl ,good luck and get her out for a hunt Dutch
 
Some dates that might help you
1865 the company moved to The Premier Works, 1865 Lancaster St
1875 Scott patented a dolls head or extension of the top rib (your gun does not have one)
1892 Scott patented a "gas check" which was a circular groove around the firing pin accompanied by groove leading to the outside. The purpose was to vent gasses in the event of a burst primer
1897 the company merged with Webley & Sons and Webley & Scott

My impression is that after 1892 most or all W & C Scott guns probably had the gas check groove. Also for a high end gun, I would expect post 1875 to have a dolls head

Your other guidelines to date of production would be what is stamped on the bottom of the barrels with regard to choke boring. If the gun is open bored it is probably pre 1875. Between 1875 and I think 1885, either numbers like 13 B 15 M or "not for ball" were stamped on the barrels if choked.

Unless the gun is dramatically loose, I can't see the need to have it restored

cheers mooncoon
 
Posts #4 and #6 hit the right note with me. Getting the job done at home in Canada makes far more sense, too, since the paper trail would pave the TCH from end to end. Add the fact that restoring a fine old gun like this in the UK, and fitting a case for it as well [single guns are rare to find in their original casing] will cost a literal small fortune. The W & C Scott double rifle I'm privileged to shoot on occasion [in .450BPE] would like hit around 3-5K to restore to original condition, before it gets cased...and we know the restorer.

tac
 
I don't care for refinished antiques. If it were my gun, I would gently clean it, then leave it alone, apart from any necessary repairs; these would be done carefully and discretely.
If you cannot determine if it is shootable, get in touch with someone who is competent to make a recommendation.
The gun will have welded barrels. There are those who advise never shooting such barrels; others feel that there is no problem if appropriate ammunition is used. Ultimately it will be your decision.
 
If you want an expert set of eyes to look over it, shotgun smith Nick Mackinson is one of the best and is located just west of London ON. He is from Birmingham England and apprenticed with one of the great gunmakers before breaking out on his own.

He did superb work on my W.W. Greener to get it back to shooting condition. I too would recommend against "restoration". Do only what's necessary for it to properly and safely function.
 
Any money spent on this gun (cosmetic wise) would solely be done because the current owner wants it looking like it once did. As far as ruining value, the gun has already lost considerable value because of the carved stock which only is sentimental value to a family member.
 
gunsaholic said:
Any money spent on this gun (cosmetic wise) would solely be done because the current owner wants it looking like it once did. As far as ruining value, the gun has already lost considerable value because of the carved stock which only is sentimental value to a family member.
Click to expand...

In this case, the carving appears from the pictures to be professionally done. Also, there is provenance to a member of the military. If it can be documented, then to the right collector it could add value, not detract.
 
I see the makers name is W& C Scott and Sons. In 1897 P. Webley & Son amalgamated with W & C Scott and Sons to become The Webley and Scott Revolver and Arms Company Ltd of Birmingham. ( I happen to own my Grandfather's shotgun which was made by P Webley & Son - so we have a pair!). Don't do anything rash - just use oil to clean - no scrubbing and let oil and cloth ease away the grime.
 
Just to add to the other replies I would say that under NO CONDITION should you have it re-finished. Instead the wood could use some cleaning and a new coat of boiled linseed oil applied to feed the finish. This isn't "re-finishing" for an oil finish. Instead it's the proper method for any oil finish for maintaining it.

The receiver looks just fine like it is. If there is some slight surface rust then lightly going over it with a good cleaning oil and solvent "soup" will do a lot for cutting down any rust spots. A little careful rubbing with 0000 steel wool with the oil and solvent will smooth the spots just fine.

Same for the barrel. It looks to be a browned Damascus barrel. If so then it may simply need a brisk rub down with a rag and some of the solvent and oil soup. It's quite normal for a browned finish to show some slight brown on a rag when rubbed down this way. At least my browned guns are rubbed down it stains the rags in this manner.

Due to it's age I would go with reduced loads. And obviously only shoot lead from it. I know that this will restrict what you can shoot what with our hunting regs for taking fowl with steel shot.

Assuming it's a Damascus barrel, which I can't quite make out from the pictures, it may or may not be rated for "Nitro powders". Nitro powders being modern smokeless powders. If it doesn't say such on it AND provided a local gunsmith gives it a look over and indicates that it's safe to shoot you'll want to use seriously reduced recoil loads or even look at shooting with home made loads that use black powder or Pyrodex.

I'm not suggesting that you do the work yourself. But if your heirloom has some issues it would seem that they are repairable. For a peek at some of the issues and their fixes check this great video out;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_gI3WX6Uww

In any event I think you've got a great piece of family history there. And please care for it well. I would suggest that the aging it shows is not from abuse but rather just the march of time. Each little mark or stain is part of the family history. The gun is begging for and needs to be maintained properly. But it's no where near the abused condition that suggests a re-build and re-finishing strategy. Unless there's something seriously wrong that we can't see in the pictures it should be able to shoot just fine with suitable pressure limited shells that are consistent with the shells used back in its day.
 
First off I want to apologize for my late reply. I got some critical stuff going on at home and have to attend to it before I get going on my family gun. Hunting season looks to be blown for me to, haven't had a chance to look for land once and people I was hoping to go with can't wait for my matters to finish in which I don't blame them and I told them to go.

Now no offence to everyone, I quickly ran through the post. First thank you for the replies. I honestly appreciate them. I personally am scared to touch this shotgun right now. I don't know what it fires, I don't know if anything is loose ( hammers are strong, thing was cocked back and when I went to release it without firing it.... Damn near ripped my thumb off) I'm still a complete "noob" to hunting and shooting, so I want to learn how to care for this gun and better for my others. So I will be going to a gunsmith for that help. I will, when I get the time contact some of the gunsmiths that where mentioned here... I love family history and by cleaning it up I won't be shinning it down to new looks, I love the old patina it has but I won't to clean the rust up hopefully as one member said the old will do some of that.


No someone said that if I can tie it to military person, it would be worth value to a collector. F collectors, it's mine!! But with my digging before my family matters happened http://thecanadasite.com/places/houses20b_rom_crystalb.html apparently some of his other guns and swords are at the Royal Ontario Museum!!!! Now I'm scared that someone will try to take this from me and it will be me from a cold set of hands as I'll fight like to ones business!! We have had a lot of our stuff stolen from a great aunts place due to a corrupted lawyer and it has ended up in a few museums from what I am told. Now I guess some members of my family went to the museums to discuss what had happen and it turned into a big mess... So on one hand I'm thinking a museum can help with with this gun and they other is they will steal it from me.

This gun and I even have a sword, will not be leaving my ownership!! If I have to hide it and did it up just to admire it.. I will. But I would like to get it and the sword in a nice case and then hang on the wall behind it a animal skin with my family crest on it. Then hopefully get some family history out in a binder with laminate pages to go beside them. I would like to shoot it, maybe if it can happen get a turkey with a band on it just to add to my history to it... Pathetic history I know but it's mine....

Again, I really appreciate they help EVERYONE and hopefully they next reply will be the result of some of your help and maybe a video or picture of me using it...maybe on a hunt lol

Thanks again,
Steve
 
Museums are not in the business of stealing from families but family estates can be a real b**ch and messy.

Most curators know the pain of receiving a donation from family member A only to have family member B show up and demand it back.
 
I agree, it wasn't the museums that caused the problems you heard about. It wasn't even the lawyers. It was their crooked clients. More than one family has fought to where no one talks to any other family following a nasty estate breakup.

So don't worry and go ahead with your plans. As for a good smith to work on your shotgun I'd suggest looking around for the smith used by the local trap and skeet shooters. That sort will know their shotguns and how to get the best from your example and how to fix it up without ruining the history. After all, they already work on guns often costing many thousands of dollars.
 
If Stuart Newby was still at Newburgh, I'd suggest he have a look at it. He is an English gunsmith, very knowledgeable I found but unfortunately he left us here in Ontario several years back to a more friendly to his trade sort of province out west. I've got my great grandfathers antique shotgun that is of little collector value and it never received a deserved restoration as Stuart departed shortly after having looked it over.
 
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