Need Suggestions: Unrestricted Semi-Auto 223
- Thread starter Grendeb
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These are a great option. I have been contemplating getting one myself.
Like said there is also the Benelli mr1, as we say in french, " ses un peut batar", its a bit of a basterd wen it come to all the control and field strip, but I think there quality. Its not my cup of tea but there's one at $1600 with a zeiss rz6 3-9x42 scope on ee.
Everything CR5 has stated here I would agree with, saying that if you really must have a semi for around $1,500 I'd give a Benelli MR1 a try. At least one CGN member has claimed MOA accuracy with their own MR1 albeit with hand loads (this shooter has placed well in the can you shoot MOA all day challenge too), however others have not been so happy with their accuracy results so it may be a little hit and miss (excuse the pun) on the accuracy of MR1's.
However the are a semi.-auto. for under $2,000 even new (perhaps $1,500+/- used, I've even seen them "rarely" for around $1,200 on the EE), use AR magazines, aren't to heavy (spec.'s say just under 8lbs.) and are of decent quality...
If it doesn't meet your accuracy demands or any other then sell it for little lo$t and perhaps in that time you'll have saved enough to give a used HKSL8 a go.
While the HK should prove accurate enough if it's design or weight is unacceptable perhaps during that time you may have saved enough for a used NR ACR or ATRS MV as either of these should be what you're after other then the $3,000+ cost.
Has anybody had any experience with a Volquartsen Evolution NR semi.-auto. .223 rifle? they are a little on the heavy side (over 8.5Lbs. w/o optic) however they claim 1/2MOA accuracy (I wonder if that's with their own ammo., because if true it's very impressive as I've only heard of one other semi.-auto. .223 manufacturer offering a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee and they make a very premium quality AR rifle) and are for sell on at least one CGN sponsor site for $3,399.
Cheers D
However the are a semi.-auto. for under $2,000 even new (perhaps $1,500+/- used, I've even seen them "rarely" for around $1,200 on the EE), use AR magazines, aren't to heavy (spec.'s say just under 8lbs.) and are of decent quality...
If it doesn't meet your accuracy demands or any other then sell it for little lo$t and perhaps in that time you'll have saved enough to give a used HKSL8 a go.
While the HK should prove accurate enough if it's design or weight is unacceptable perhaps during that time you may have saved enough for a used NR ACR or ATRS MV as either of these should be what you're after other then the $3,000+ cost.
Has anybody had any experience with a Volquartsen Evolution NR semi.-auto. .223 rifle? they are a little on the heavy side (over 8.5Lbs. w/o optic) however they claim 1/2MOA accuracy (I wonder if that's with their own ammo., because if true it's very impressive as I've only heard of one other semi.-auto. .223 manufacturer offering a 1/2MOA accuracy guarantee and they make a very premium quality AR rifle) and are for sell on at least one CGN sponsor site for $3,399.
Cheers D
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I second this! picked mine up used for $1200 CAD, groups under 2"@100, very reliable cycling, has ergos more than adequate for hunting.
My buddy has a Keltec SU 16 tactical.... it groups under 2"@100 yards as well. VERY light, would be super handy to carry around for coyotes.... Id ONLY recommend the Tactical version though.... Ive handled all the others versions, AND THEY ARE FLIMSY. My other complaint is the A2 flashhider that comes threaded on the SU 16 tactical makes it VERY loud and ear damaging to shoot without ear protection. For coyote hunting certainly be threading it off unless your one of those guys who wears ear pro while hunting....
I would go with an HK SL8, I have one and they can be had for $1800 ish on the EE, there's one for sale at the local cabelas for $1600. They are not the lightest rifle around, but they are incredibly accurate, reliable and will last a life time.
I would stay away from a MR1, but thats just me
I would stay away from a MR1, but thats just me
That was my experience with them as well, the tactical one that looks kinda like an AR (I think it's an FX model) was definitely the nicer of the two SU-16's I've played with, felt a lot more solid and also shot better.
Warren, a linear comp from Allen Gunworks or S&J costs less than $100 and is the best muzzle device to have on your rifle while hunting. I have a few of them and they work very well.
SL8 is probably the most under rated non restricted semi auto rifle in Canada. Years ago I had one of the first ones in Canada, then last year I had one for a while with the HERA lower and an ACR stock and both of those would shoot 1 moa with quality ammo, I just picked up my third on a trade, it's set up like a G36. I seem to sell them then miss the accuracy and the super smooth shooting. The action feels like it's on needle bearings and they've got a decent trigger.
Picking a used one up for under $2000 then putting a HERA lower on it would still have you at less than the cost of most other quality non restricted black rifles, it would shoot better groups than pretty much all others and the HERA lower addresses the not for everyone ergos of the thumbhole stock. Pretty safe to say that HK makes a quality firearm.
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Go with option 2. .223 bolt gun with your $1500 will be something worth keeping, not a plastic SU16 that'll probably be on the chopping block when you realize it won't be accurate enough for your needs.
Do you reload?
I agree. I've studied a lot bolt actions before buying one that I believed would be the best bang for the buck and for bolts the standard is pretty much 1MOA.
I'm questionning myself where I'm either asking too much with 1MOA for a semi auto or 2MOA would be good enough.
The FNAR always called me I thought I could sell my savage and get the same capability of 308 power and precision with the FNAR and buy a 223 bolt instead. Unfortunately the rail has no MOA built in so unless paying 3-400$ rings with MOA built in there's no way you can shoot this beast up to 6-800 yards + the gun weight 9lbs so it's pretty much the same as my precision rifle with scope and all but my rifle is paid and ready to shoot so it would simply be a hudge loss of money.
My first Choice has always been the SU16 since it's light weight, compact, can take LAR mag and shoot 10 rounds legally.
Only complaint might be the precision that I should probably review for a semi with my budget. I've heard that lot of people dont like plastic although I'm not part of the tactical elitism where I need all parts to be made of steel since I won't throw this gun above a 10' fence If I drop it shoulder height and it doesn't break it's good for me.
I'd probably go with the Tac or compact version for it's folding capability but I'd preffer pistol grip adeally.
I think you're asking too much for a non restricted semi, having them honestly shoot 1 moa is very rare. And as I said earlier, having one guy claim he got 1 moa once does not make the rifle a 1 moa rifle. Have a look at the one moa challenge thread and look at the the rifles that are actually doing five rounds for five groups on one piece of paper. There are no SU-16's, no MR1's, no XCR's, it's the high end rifles with aftermarket barrels with an experienced shooter behind it who is 9 times out of 10 running well developed handloads.
I understand wanting the most accuracy so when you miss you know it was you and not the rifle but you can't have that if you're shopping for the best bang for the buck. If you're going to run factory ammo and want tight groups then chances are you're going to be spending over $1/round.
I've owned most of the non resteicted semi auto's we have in Canada and if I haven't owned one I have at least had a chance to run rounds through them and of all of them the only ones I ever seen produce a 1 moa or better group are the SL8's and my ACR with my custom made stainless match grade 300BLK barrel. Other than that I've owned a few AR's that would do 1 moa but most of the other options were a reliable 2-3 moa with the odd lucky group from time to time that was under 2 moa.
Even the Fnar is not going to give you 1 moa, one of my friends had one and I spent a bit of time with it, he was having a heck of a time finding a handload that he could get 1 moa from. He chased it for a long time but could never get it to consistently shoot well. 3 shots looking good then a flyer, over and over no matter what he tried with his loads. He also had a $1000 scope and was shooting it off bags so chances are it was the rifle and not his shooting.
600-800 yards shouldn't need a canted base, you should need less than 30moa of correction and most scopes have enough for that.
Pastic? First, it's polymer not plastic and there is a difference. Second, most rifles these days are polymer, my ACR has a polymer lower, doesn't bother me at all, my HK is all polymer, I don't worry about it. The gun isn't going to get brittle in the cold like some made in china childs toy. I've shot my HK's, my AR180B, my Vector, my ACR, and many other rifles that have polymer in their construction in the middle of winter down to -20c and never had a problem with anything other than once using too thick of a lubricant that stopped the Vector from cycling. Heck, I even had my Kel-Tec sub2000 out in the middle of winter and that had to be the cheapest feeling rifle I've ever owned and it survived.
Don't worry about the precision if all it's for is coyotes. Once you do some testing you'll know what the rifle can do and you just adjust your engagement range accordingly. If you're not happy with what it can do then sell it and keep saving your money till you can afford something better. If you buy used you shouldn't lose too much money if you decide to sell it later.
If you must have the accuracy potential and are on a budget then buy a used HK SL8. It's the only rifle I've seen that consistently shoots well, I'm on my third one, I have a buddy with one, and I've shot with other guys that have one and they all perform well and are 100% reliable.
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I've read on this rifle I didn't know much about it and that's the reason for this thread.
Although it doesn't turn me on much I must admit it's a good compromise I'll have to face off the su16.
SL8 heavy (especially front) but precise
SU16 Less precise but lightweight.
Do you know if having the G36 Style lower makes any difference on the weight?
Yes, it definitely feels lighter but it's all off the wrong end, that match grade Lothar Walther barrel is still hanging out the other end.
Next time I'm shooting with mareshow we'll be able to compare a stock SL8 to my G36 conversion.
I've been throwing around the idea of having the barrel fluted or re-profiled but I really don't like the idea of doing anything to it that may negatively effect accuracy.
Try a used SU-16 and see what you think. You can always sell it. The folding version is the one I had my first experience with and my buddy brought it to the range one day and we tried six or seven different types of ammo and nothing would group. Looked like a shotgun was pointed at the target from 40 yards.
The tactical model that looks like an AR was brought out to my place by a buddy of mine and we sighted it in and played for quite a few rounds, it wasn't doing too bad at 50 yards, probably 2-3 moa off of a rest with a cheap red dot scope (EoTech clone).
The SU16 wouldn't be my first choice but if it was my only option I'd us it, I'm sure it can get the job done but it won't be a rifle you fall in love with and say to yourself "I'm never selling this one".
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1487236-Hk-sl8
And as mareshow said there is a used one at Cabela's north location in Edmonton for $1600. If you want accuracy out to and past 300 yards this is the best option out there.
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The T97 is another possible option, a buddy of mine owns one with a Flat top upper and I've seen him get consistent 1.5-2.0" @100 groups with it. .. Fairly light, compact for vehicals and OHVs, comfy to hold. But has a very terrible trigger, and is loud aswell. I'd personably be comfortable shooting a coyote out to 250yrds with it.
Personally I had the same dilemma. I have an AR15, and as much as I love shooting it, it's restricted status makes it impossible to carry around or go hunting with it. I wanted to stay with a 223 caliber so this is what I tried:
Keltec su16. Nice rifle. lightweight and not very precise. All plastic. Not so much a keeper on my book.
CSA VZ58. Beautiful rifle no plastic crap. Can be had with a folding stock. Super precise and quite affordable. Definitely a keeper.
Tavor. Wow. What a rifle. Precise. Balanced and very well made. If you got the money for it, it's a keeper too
I ended up with the CZ58 and haven't regretted it since. In fact, I seem to enjoy shooting it more than my AR15. Go figure. I can go hunting with it, take it anywhere and it's a tank. Gotta love the Czech design.
Keltec su16. Nice rifle. lightweight and not very precise. All plastic. Not so much a keeper on my book.
CSA VZ58. Beautiful rifle no plastic crap. Can be had with a folding stock. Super precise and quite affordable. Definitely a keeper.
Tavor. Wow. What a rifle. Precise. Balanced and very well made. If you got the money for it, it's a keeper too
I ended up with the CZ58 and haven't regretted it since. In fact, I seem to enjoy shooting it more than my AR15. Go figure. I can go hunting with it, take it anywhere and it's a tank. Gotta love the Czech design.
I've been pondering the same questions as the OP for several months, thanks for the information everyone, it's really informative.
I'd definitely like the SL-8 because it's the most precise at that price point, but they haven't been produced in years and I just don't want to buy a second-hand rifle. Second choice might be the Benelli MR-1 or a FNAR, despite the somewhat weird aesthetics.
The XCR and ACR and Swiss Arms and Tavors are great but pricey, I don't trust Norinco and Keltec, the Vz58 is nice but I want something more than a 3 MOA rifle, and I just can't "dig" the mini-14. I don't know why, but there's something that just bothers me about its proportions. *shrug*
Otherwise, I'm going to have to settle for a bolt action. Which is even worse in a way, so many choices! Weatherby Vanguard VMC, Ruger Precision Rifle gen 2, Savage 10BA, Howa 1500, Mossberg MVP, Remington 700 in some chassis, Tikka T3 CTR...
I need to win the lotto so I can just buy them all and figure them out.
I'd definitely like the SL-8 because it's the most precise at that price point, but they haven't been produced in years and I just don't want to buy a second-hand rifle. Second choice might be the Benelli MR-1 or a FNAR, despite the somewhat weird aesthetics.
The XCR and ACR and Swiss Arms and Tavors are great but pricey, I don't trust Norinco and Keltec, the Vz58 is nice but I want something more than a 3 MOA rifle, and I just can't "dig" the mini-14. I don't know why, but there's something that just bothers me about its proportions. *shrug*
Otherwise, I'm going to have to settle for a bolt action. Which is even worse in a way, so many choices! Weatherby Vanguard VMC, Ruger Precision Rifle gen 2, Savage 10BA, Howa 1500, Mossberg MVP, Remington 700 in some chassis, Tikka T3 CTR...
I need to win the lotto so I can just buy them all and figure them out.
