I am aware that once you dispose of stuff it can be legally searched through. However how can somebody file a complaint about cardboard? At best this is a recycling issue. Omen you should serious ##### out the hotel, you will get some free goods, I would CC thier head office in the US. Ask them point blank why they are opposed to firearms owners using thier hotels? In Canada this wont gain much traction..but south of the border the response will be different.
(never mind, OLD, OLD, OLD, please IGNORE)
- Thread starter omen
- Start date
I think alot of guys are blowing this way out of proportion and little or no experience in the hotel industry.
Several empty boxes are found in a hotel, most likely by HSKP or someone who has little to no firearms experience. Of course their going to at the least notify their supervisor.
Keeping in mind many hotels can have any number of prominent business clients or VIPs through on any day of the week (were talking a Hilton or nice hotel, not a super 8), the supervisor will notify security.
Keeping again in mind the hotels staff and guests safety and security are ranked higher than privacy, they will investigate and a call to the local police RCMP isn't unreasonable.
The RCMP has to investigate the call and is probably curious why the empty boxes were there, hell if you found a bunch of empty boxes in some garbage wuldnt you be curious? Even if was just to find out whos having more fun than you??
So a call's made and a simple, reasonable explanation resolves the questions of the RCMP and security. Everyone goes happy, everyone has done their job and your out what.. 2 minutes of cell time? 10minutes if you take the call later at work and call the detachment back.
Thats a whole lot of hell raising on the rightous 'we shouldn't have to hide who are" crowd over nothing. And you should call the hotel and find out what exactly prompted the call so they can be notified of the exact incident.. but if you play hardball, they'll likely tell you to get stuffed, hotel security comes first.
Several empty boxes are found in a hotel, most likely by HSKP or someone who has little to no firearms experience. Of course their going to at the least notify their supervisor.
Keeping in mind many hotels can have any number of prominent business clients or VIPs through on any day of the week (were talking a Hilton or nice hotel, not a super 8), the supervisor will notify security.
Keeping again in mind the hotels staff and guests safety and security are ranked higher than privacy, they will investigate and a call to the local police RCMP isn't unreasonable.
The RCMP has to investigate the call and is probably curious why the empty boxes were there, hell if you found a bunch of empty boxes in some garbage wuldnt you be curious? Even if was just to find out whos having more fun than you??
So a call's made and a simple, reasonable explanation resolves the questions of the RCMP and security. Everyone goes happy, everyone has done their job and your out what.. 2 minutes of cell time? 10minutes if you take the call later at work and call the detachment back.
Thats a whole lot of hell raising on the rightous 'we shouldn't have to hide who are" crowd over nothing. And you should call the hotel and find out what exactly prompted the call so they can be notified of the exact incident.. but if you play hardball, they'll likely tell you to get stuffed, hotel security comes first.
Last edited:
omen said:
Determination of intent.. although they had not received a complaint of an actual crime, criminals can often be stupid and will state their intent to commit a crime to police.... like many of the idiots who appear on this forum (not you, omen
yet). The police are still duty bound to determine if your possession of pistol ammuntion was for a criminal intent because they received the complaint (yes, I know pistol ammo can be used in long guns..please don't try to second guess me... you stick to computers and I'll stick to law enforcement) they still are duty bound to investigate for the greater protection of the publc which is also a Charter protected/limited right.Further to all of this, CSTANKEY makes an excellent observation regarding the average clientel for a hotel. As a former police intelligence operative/detective, I would also want to know more about the intentions and background of the individual who had left the boxes in the garbage...so, you got a phone call.. were you arrested...nope. The Judges Rules state the during an investigation, the police can ask any question they like until the determination to lay a charge has been made..I think that by answering their questions, you may have saved yourself an unfortunate meeting at the airport which would have possibly involved a violation of your Charter rights through an involuntary detention. Still an infringment of your rights, but an infringement that occurs months or years AND thousands of dollars after a court finding of an infringement... yup, the law is on the side of the police..although they strive not to violate your rights (contrary to the popular belief of the members this site and the liberal media).
As to your argument that it's merely cardboard, nice try, but the carboard is marked with the Winchester identifiers and 9mm 147 gr BEB. Every cop knows it's pistol ammuntion, they aren't stupid enough to think "yup it's only a cardboard box". Nor is that an excuse at law, it provides reasonable grounds to allow questioning and may be circumstantial evidence if you "perhaps" had an ex-wife or ex-employer with whom you were extremely pissed who was in NS... gosh, that isn't stuff that is on CPIC!!!!!
Use your head, it was a preventative measure designed to protect the general public and, last time I checked (Tuesday), the Charter was all about protecting the individual only so far as it concerned the safety of the general public. The officer spoke to you, determined you weren't a danger to the public and left it at that... so, how were your rights infringed to an unreasonable level.. again.. look at the Judge's Rules. He left it at that, not all that different from a traffic stop.... except, you own firearms which aren't really yours anyway because the Charter doesn't guarantee the right to ownership of any property.
Why whine about it.. if someone else had been in possession of pistol ammunition unlawfully and went on a shooting rampage in NS that killed 10 IPSC shooters, we would now be questioning why the hotel staff who found the boxes and the police, who were aware of their existence, didn't do anything about it.
Omen, you are one of my friends, quit trying to stir up something that doesn't exist.. there is no anti-gun conspiracy in this event.
Last edited:
empty cardboard boxes, ammo or otherwise should not have caused this much fuss with the hotel. I left a bunch of brass and empty containers at my hotel in Kingston, nothing happened there. This was nanny state training at it's best. I am not faulting the officer who phoned Omen, but I am faulting the dip#### that started the complaint at the hotel.
You gotta be kidding! Protect the public from lethal cardboard boxes? This wasn't a complaint of someone else in possession of pistol ammunition unlawfully - this was trash. Omen isn't stirring up s**t, he's making us aware of another instance where gun owners are perceived as criminals because we are gun owners.tritium said:
Do you as a cop, think 'shooting rampage' every time you see an empty ammo box?
- Location
- Keswick, Ontario
WOW..holy paranoia.
We went from a couple of empty ammo boxes to the guy having a file and a practical boycott of the hotel and lynching the manager.
Guys...please...take a f**kin breath.
The vast majority of people in this country are sheep. We complain about that fact on this board on a daily basis. But now that this has happened we suddenly act surprised?????
The hotel employee obviously made a couple of descisions about what empty ammo boxes mean. To us, who know there was a match in town, it means a day of fun.
To the lay person and empty ammo box means nothing more than a loaded gun, and all the negative connotations that a Politically Correct/Lieberal brainwashing can conjure up in the mind.
The chain of events that happened after that resulted in? What?..a phone call? OH MY GOD A PHONE CALL!?!?!??! So the cop was a little bull, they are all like that to put you off guard.
Instead of going off on a rant, why not go ahead and call the hotel manager, and EDUCATE him on the sport. Let him know that the he can look forward to a floor of rooms filled up at the next match if he/she can take the time to educate the staff on the finer points of not freaking out at empty (or full) ammo boxes etc.
We need these people on our side. Remember, they are a victims of ignorance in most cases. That's truly not our problem, but we ignore the opportunity to educate to our own detriment.
We went from a couple of empty ammo boxes to the guy having a file and a practical boycott of the hotel and lynching the manager.
Guys...please...take a f**kin breath.
The vast majority of people in this country are sheep. We complain about that fact on this board on a daily basis. But now that this has happened we suddenly act surprised?????
The hotel employee obviously made a couple of descisions about what empty ammo boxes mean. To us, who know there was a match in town, it means a day of fun.
To the lay person and empty ammo box means nothing more than a loaded gun, and all the negative connotations that a Politically Correct/Lieberal brainwashing can conjure up in the mind.
The chain of events that happened after that resulted in? What?..a phone call? OH MY GOD A PHONE CALL!?!?!??! So the cop was a little bull, they are all like that to put you off guard.
Instead of going off on a rant, why not go ahead and call the hotel manager, and EDUCATE him on the sport. Let him know that the he can look forward to a floor of rooms filled up at the next match if he/she can take the time to educate the staff on the finer points of not freaking out at empty (or full) ammo boxes etc.
We need these people on our side. Remember, they are a victims of ignorance in most cases. That's truly not our problem, but we ignore the opportunity to educate to our own detriment.
Last edited:
David K said:
Enlighten me, David, what would have happened, if the person being called would have refused to answer the questions or even never picked up the phone? I think, the Registry would have provided all the answers: that person has a restricted license, has been issued ATT to the hotel and IPSC range - was it hard to connect the two?
Spare me this precious 'forcing Police to attend in person'! No one of us is forcing Police to attend - on the contrary, when our cars get broken in or vanalized you don't even show up and there is no amount of forcing that can cause you to do so.
tritium said:
Ohhh, no, no, no, of course not.... You wanna know what this is? Something a friend of mine said, when I told her what happened:
Veronique said:
That's about it.
The point, however, something I mentioned in the letter I sent to them last night, was that the reason for my being in that hotel was explained at checkin, then we chatted with our waitress at dinner about what we were doing in town, and at checkout I chatted with the checkout girls about how I did in the match. There were more than enough people there who knew there was a shooting competition, and that there were shooters in the hotel, and that I was one of them. They simply didn't pay attention, and didn't connect the two.
I'll just throw out the empty boxes in common trash cans in the future, not in my room. I'm paying close to $200/night, they can dispose of my garbage; if I leave it at the club, it's the club volunteers who have to deal with it. Between the two, I'd rather inconvience the hotel personnel.
No, it's not an anti-gun propaganda, I'm not expressing my outrage at being stigmatized, more than anything else, I posted this for the humor value, and as a warning to others in future hotel stays: don't leave stuff in your room, throw it out in the common areas. Also, for any organizers of big matches, make sure you let the hotels know what's going on, so they don't freak out about nothing.
tritium said:Buy her a drink for me, I love that quote!
Trit
She'll be joining the ranks of IPSC soon enough, you can buy her a drink yourself
. Ohh, BTW, I just spoke with people from the Ont CFO (getting an ATT for my gun), and mentioned this story - they were laughing their pants off...
Man we are one paranoid defensive bunch...
Don't you know that the next generation of terrorists are likely to be Polish Who would ever suspect them.
Different scenario...
John Smith, an Aircraft Engineer, is on conference in Halifax (it could happen ) on Aircraft Safety...the topic is making planes (one he helped design) less vunerable to take over...
When he checks out...he leaves his paperwork in the room...including schematic diagrams of a 747 and background information on how the 911 terrorists took the planes...hey it's just paper. No one would bat an eye if that was reported.
Now our little scenario...this was probably not a match Hotel with 75 rooms set aside for IPSC...and just because Omen was chatting up the bartender and the front desk staff...does not mean this info gets back to the Nite manager or the cleaning staff...
It's also a bit unreasonable to expect the cleaning staff to know anything about guns...or ammo...
We also don't know if they checked out the boxes to see if they were empty...
Now the RCMP...they did what they get paid to do...they followed up on a public safety concern (even if it was a bit over the top) We don't know exactly what they were told...and it sounds to me like it was given the attention it warranted...a 30 secod phone call...end of story.
Lighten up people...
Don't you know that the next generation of terrorists are likely to be Polish
Who would ever suspect them.Different scenario...
John Smith, an Aircraft Engineer, is on conference in Halifax (it could happen
) on Aircraft Safety...the topic is making planes (one he helped design) less vunerable to take over...When he checks out...he leaves his paperwork in the room...including schematic diagrams of a 747 and background information on how the 911 terrorists took the planes...hey it's just paper. No one would bat an eye if that was reported.
Now our little scenario...this was probably not a match Hotel with 75 rooms set aside for IPSC...and just because Omen was chatting up the bartender and the front desk staff...does not mean this info gets back to the Nite manager or the cleaning staff...
It's also a bit unreasonable to expect the cleaning staff to know anything about guns...or ammo...
We also don't know if they checked out the boxes to see if they were empty...
Now the RCMP...they did what they get paid to do...they followed up on a public safety concern (even if it was a bit over the top) We don't know exactly what they were told...and it sounds to me like it was given the attention it warranted...a 30 secod phone call...end of story.
Lighten up people...
kent23 said:csankey said:
Hey Kent,
I think that Omen's friend stated it best but, let me fill ya in on the details of such an investigation (and, yes, you should be worried
If someone sees ammunition boxes etc in your truck and the polcie are called...yup, you're going to get a visit...even if they were being transported lawfully...it's one of those measures that is supposedly going to curtail gun violence.. police administrators feed it to their troops almost daily and, especially in Ontario, coroner's inquests based on domestic violence relatied murders have forced police to investigate ALL FIREARMS RELATED CALLS.
Cardboard boxes in a recycling bin shouldn't have elicited such a call but very infrequently they do (in 15 years of police work I've never had one like that but I was once dispatched to assist at a residence where they called in a broken toilet... the comcentre Sergeant and I had a set to over it...he took an early retirement, I earned a fire side chat with the Regional superintendent for insuboridination).
As for CPIC or "the 'system" automatically flagging you as a firearms owner...it doesn't unless you have an entry on CPIC for "Firearms Interest Police" which can only get there due to refusal of a PAL, domestic violence, threatening or any other violent crime. To determine if you are a firearms owner a separate check must be done with the CFC...are you ready for this one...they aren't open 24 hours but most violent crime occurs between 9pm and 2am????
So, the bottom line is that when guns are involved, most police services have a policy that an officer receiving the complaint MUST investigate...even if it's a stupid call...remember the post on here a last year about the photos of guns developed at the Walmart in Barrie? Dumb call...cop had to investigate.
Oh, and as for the alien abduction...yup, a cop would most likely get sent to investigate the mental well-being of the individual involved.
PMT... no, I'm not suggesting that there was a need to protect the public from lethal cardboard boxes... I think I may have mis-stated what I was attempting to convey... I was attempting to convey that in our very ANTI-Gun society, the cardboard boxes may have been considered as reasonable grounds for the the cop to enter into an investigation to determine the intent of the indiviudal who is in possession of a firearm in order to prevent a supposed gun crime that MAY be taking place.. that is a HUGE stretch though but it is how it most likely would have been articulated in a subsequent police report or internal comalpiant based investigation.
I'm surprised that every cop in town wasn't aware that there was a major shooting match going on though.. that would just be good community policing-related intelligence to step up patrols in the area so that the gun owners cars don't get broken into in the hotel parking lot..not to check out the gun owners but to protect their property. It would be like stepping up patrols because there is major RV show, fishing show, dog show or the carnies are in town (ever notice how B&E stats go up when the Carnies are in town
I think Omen is writing a letter to the hotel and, given his above explanation he should... I would... htere was no need for them to call police, unfortuately, as I have stated numerous times, the officer has no choice but to investigate based upon policy alone (please don't quote the Nuremburg trials, I hear that everyday)
I was just filling you guys in on WHY the investigation ensued (other than my final comment to Omen who opened my eyes in the end).
- Location
- Halifax - NS
There was no official match hotel.
Normally at the NS provincials, there has not been enough long distance travelling people to warrant making arrangements for a match hotel. (Not gonna be able to get a group rate for 6 people...)
The Hilton was no match hotel. It just happened to be the closest and the nicest hotel next to the range.
Therefore, no one from the organization talked with them.
I'd have guessed it was AOK until now.
Normally at the NS provincials, there has not been enough long distance travelling people to warrant making arrangements for a match hotel. (Not gonna be able to get a group rate for 6 people...)
The Hilton was no match hotel. It just happened to be the closest and the nicest hotel next to the range.
Therefore, no one from the organization talked with them.
I'd have guessed it was AOK until now.
tritium said:As for CPIC or "the 'system" automatically flagging you as a firearms owner...it doesn't unless you have an entry on CPIC for "Firearms Interest Police" which can only get there due to refusal of a PAL, domestic violence, threatening or any other violent crime. To determine if you are a firearms owner a separate check must be done with the CFC...are you ready for this one...they aren't open 24 hours but most violent crime occurs between 9pm and 2am????
I'm going to disagree with you there; one of my friends works as a police aux north of Toronto (I THINK it's Peel) and he tells me that whenever they put in someone's details into their computer to check driver's licence thing, it automatically shows warnings (noritces) if the person is licenced.
Thanks for your thoughts Tritium...
And I have to agree with Omen. A buddy of mine is with the Ottawa Police and he punched in my and the his computer displayed a button for firearms. He clicked it and with a few seconds it displayed the number of guns I own, restricted and non-restricted. That was at 2am.
That furthers the point that when CFC is 'called upon' 5000 times a day for checks, it is a bit misleading to say the least.
So if an officer is behind me at a red light, types in my plate (or any one of 7 plates that belong to me and my staff drive/use) they can click on my name, click on CFC, and bingo... buddy in front of him/her is a Canadian Gun Nut!!
A sort of get worried about the rookies and what they might think. Last year (before I was licenced) a young officer approached my vehicle for a routine traffic stop by walking sideways against the vehicle with his hand on his Glock. I have no idea why we was freaked out, it was in broad daylight, I was pulling a trailer filled with tools, and was obviously working. If that happened now, and he the buttons on his computer, how would he have felt?
And Trit, I know the girls and boys in blue are following protocol when they get a phone call; that's their duty, and that's why they called Omen.
Probably this would whole thread would be better off in General Discussions.
And I have to agree with Omen. A buddy of mine is with the Ottawa Police and he punched in my and the his computer displayed a button for firearms. He clicked it and with a few seconds it displayed the number of guns I own, restricted and non-restricted. That was at 2am.
That furthers the point that when CFC is 'called upon' 5000 times a day for checks, it is a bit misleading to say the least.
So if an officer is behind me at a red light, types in my plate (or any one of 7 plates that belong to me and my staff drive/use) they can click on my name, click on CFC, and bingo... buddy in front of him/her is a Canadian Gun Nut!!
A sort of get worried about the rookies and what they might think. Last year (before I was licenced) a young officer approached my vehicle for a routine traffic stop by walking sideways against the vehicle with his hand on his Glock. I have no idea why we was freaked out, it was in broad daylight, I was pulling a trailer filled with tools, and was obviously working. If that happened now, and he the buttons on his computer, how would he have felt?
And Trit, I know the girls and boys in blue are following protocol when they get a phone call; that's their duty, and that's why they called Omen.
Probably this would whole thread would be better off in General Discussions.
csankey said:
You have to remember this is Post 911 and this is a hotel next to an International airport, this airport took in almost a hundred airliners that were diverted on 911... I applaud the staff for their due diligence and the police for their follow up and subsequent dismissal of the investigation.
No harm no foul... but what if no one mentioned empty ammo boxes at an Airport Hotel and then some terrorist got lucky.... imagine if the press/public found out ...Ya the terrorists left possible evidence, but we didn't want to offend anyone...espically those whining IPSC shooters... fuk the rest of the general public.
I agree whole heartedly with you Trit.
