New 223 target recomendations
- Thread starter whitey07
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^^^^ This
Depending on what you expect from your 223 your specs can change radically.
The biggest limitation for the 223 in mag and action length. Many are based on the anemic AR15 mag which is waay too short for any kind of long range performance, but fine for short range.
I'm told Tikka does make a longer action 223 based on what most would consider a 308 length action... That might be a place to start, but you may hit a wall with mags since I think it only works with the Tikka mag.
If you want to set up a rifle that can really stretch the legs on a 223, you need a rem 700 or clone and run accurate mags only. (MDT now makes a steel mag for 223 but I have never seen one to determine what it takes to modify as needed.)
The fundamental point for cartridge performance is to ensure the base of the bearing surface of a seated bullet sits forward of the neck to shoulder junction or donut. Once you have a barrel chambered that way for say 88 gain Hornady ELDM, then you can shoot side by side with the small 6mms ballistically. Your loaded rounds will be around 2.640" so you need to modify the mags so you can do that. Once you get there, your 223 will chase any light recoiling cartridge on the planet out to 600-800 yards.
There are just a few guys in the country who know how to set up a 223 properly and if you have ever shot with any of them you will be amazed how competitive they are, especially inside 600 yards.
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Agreed on this.
Tikka mags aren't the best. If you have to stick with the Tikka style mags, there is a company down in the US that apparently mags really nice steel Tikka mags.
For what's it's worth , I've had a R700 Milspec .223 9 twist , 24" barrel . It was a killer with the Hornady 75g BTHP Match bullet . It had a moderate throat length and would function through the internal mag and offered 3000fps . It was under 1/2 MOA @200M off a crappy Caldwell bipod . Shot it routinely out to 705 yards ( max distance at my local range ) .
My current .223 is a Savage LRPV with a 7 twist . It has a very short throat and is a single shot . Both the Berger 80VLD and Berger 85.5 Hybrid long range target bullets are seated deep into the case ( well past the shoulder junction ) . The 80VLD gets 2950fps and the 85.5 hybrid is 2900fps with 24.5g of Varget in Starline brass . There are ZERO pressure issues .
It is stupid accurate at 705 yards with either bullet . A 1 MOA plate ( 7" x 7" ) at 705 yards is a waste of ammo . 10 out of 10 hits in a row with no effort whatsoever . This is 100% fact . Search Tigster200 on Youtube and you can watch me do it . These are factory rifles with 0 mods .
My current .223 is a Savage LRPV with a 7 twist . It has a very short throat and is a single shot . Both the Berger 80VLD and Berger 85.5 Hybrid long range target bullets are seated deep into the case ( well past the shoulder junction ) . The 80VLD gets 2950fps and the 85.5 hybrid is 2900fps with 24.5g of Varget in Starline brass . There are ZERO pressure issues .
It is stupid accurate at 705 yards with either bullet . A 1 MOA plate ( 7" x 7" ) at 705 yards is a waste of ammo . 10 out of 10 hits in a row with no effort whatsoever . This is 100% fact . Search Tigster200 on Youtube and you can watch me do it . These are factory rifles with 0 mods .
1-8 is fine only for bullets up to 80 grains.
If you want to run the 88s or 90s, then you will need 1/7 or possibly faster yet.
I know lots of 1000 yard TR shooters who tried 80s with 1/9 twist and had no good results, but you are more than welcome to try. They always wanted more twist.
Well unless you plan to single load the 88-90’s........
I shoot 77 mk262 clone loads out of all of my 223’s in 1-7 and 1-8 and all are hammers if I am in my wind game.
And at no point in my chat did I mention 1-9. but frontier had a 75gr OTM that was built for 1-9. I believe it was called the T2 shot very well out of the only 1-9 I had and was AR mag length.
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Developed and competed with the 223 years back.... (yes, I am one of those guys that made the 223 rock). Given you already have a 308, I would STRONGLY recommend looking into a 22 BR or a 22 Creedmoor or a 22-250. No new action, prefit match barrel with the right specs. Easy, simple and far less headache in charge weight management. If you want, I can post a video of my testing my 223 FTR loads at distance... shot great, huge PITA to get it right and you will be needing a quality milligram scale.
The larger cases of these other 3, allow you to load with far less fuss and bother. You dont need to run any of these fast and bore life will be similar to your 223 run hot. Research start and reduced loading on Hodgdon.com moderate pressure leads to simplified everything.
My current goto is a 22 Creedmoor launching Sierra 95gr MKs at a very sedate 2800fps (we creep towards 2900fps in some barrels). I have taken this combo accurately to 1500yds and it will get to 1600yds in lighter conditions. Ballistics is right on the heels of the magnum boomers (and yes, I do shoot with others who have big cal boomers).
You can run these with all the same bullets you would in a 223 without worrying about case capacity, donuts, tuning and fussing... and if you want to shoot further, you can use bullets the 223 will struggle with... at performance levels, the 223 cannot reach.
Since it sounds like this if for S&G's, consider a case based on a 473 bolt and your life will be heaps easier. Now if you are buliding something to go smoke PDs, that is a whole different story.
And until someone makes better designed 223 AICS mags, feeding will not be ideal AND your oal is hampered. The 22 Creedmoor feeds like any other Creedmoor, which is to say, like butter.
Jerry
You don't need to single load the 88s or 90s, but you would need to modify the AI AccurateMags to do it.
I run the 223 with a Defiance clone of the SA Rem 700 from modified AccurateMags that feed rounds of up to 2.650 OAL. The barrel was chambered with a reamer I ordered from Manson with .190 free bore, but in retrospect it probably should have been a tad longer.
Loaded rounds with 88 ELDMs jam the lands at 2.640 OAL and the base of the bearing surface is forward of the donut, so that's not an issue.
I feed from a 10 round mag with no problems whatsoever and I have no trouble safely hitting 2900 FPS using Varget with the 88s. With fire formed brass I can sneak up to 2950 but I don't recommend that for guys who dont understand how temperatures can affect pressures.
I get a solid 1/2 MOA accuracy with 88 ELDM so far, but when time permits, I do plan the play with jump a bit more to see if I can improve on that. I also have to test some 90 grain Bergers, while they dont have the BC of the 88s, they are likely more accurate at 100 yards.
I'd be real curious to hear about what guys might be doing to get better than 1/2 MOA accuracy with Hornady 88 ELDMs or 90 grain ATips. What secret sauce might lead to sub 1/4 MOA accuracy with those high BC bullets.
As for Gerrys Post about the 223 struggling at longer distances, I would agree for F Class with 1/2 MOA V bull, that's a tall order, but still plenty accurate for PRS or other more general shooting. The problem with the 223 for long range F Class is getting really low velocity spreads to maintain the widest center horizontal part of the V Bull. Accuracy is generally on par with any other cartridge... After all the cartridge only dictates your speed, not accuracy. Accuracy comes from the chamber and barrel, so its not something that can be blamed on the case used to hold powder. At 300 to 600 yards in F Class the properly outfitted 223 is just as competitive as any other cartridge, but velocity spreads can cost you past that, if you do shoot past that.
As for PRS, there is a class dedicated for the 223 which limits bullet weight and speed, so running the loads I describe here simply requires that you'd run as an open class shooter. Some guys feel that 223 uses too small of a bullet to spot impacts at longer ranges, but I don't buy that argument. Long range targets these days are usually fitted with flashers that indicate hits, so it's not an issue. The light recoil of a 223 for PRS is an obvious advantage. When you "objectively" evaluate the ballistics of the 223 with heavy bullets compared to the ever popular small 6mms used for PRS, there's not a hair breadth difference between them.
As for a 223 Creedmore, well that is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. Way too hot for a 223. Barrel life will surely be sacrificed. Anything more than about 33 grains of powder should never be used with .224 projectiles.
This is the modification required for AccurateMags for long 223s
Not shown in the video is that the front wall can be thinned out as well.
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If you are going to go through all of the work to try and ballistically optimize a .223, you may as well just start off with a better more fit for purpose centerfire .22.
.22BR, .22BRA, .22 Creedmoor, etc.
These are better suited to run the heavy for cal .22 projectiles. There's no point in trying to outfit a VW Beetle for racing when you can just spend the same money on a Corvette and be much better off.
.22BR, .22BRA, .22 Creedmoor, etc.
These are better suited to run the heavy for cal .22 projectiles. There's no point in trying to outfit a VW Beetle for racing when you can just spend the same money on a Corvette and be much better off.
Keep in mind that not everyone wants to attempt to compete at the national level where the latest / greatest / fastest round is "needed" . A .223 with the right bullet is deadly out to 700 yards and well beyond . The availability of quality brass , dies etc is FAR superior with .223 in more locations across the country . These days , there is something to be said for that .
100% agreed.
There's nothing wrong with a .223. It's a great round in it's standard form, and certainly has its merits. And it sounds like the OP doesn't need to go through all the hurdles to make it the most ballistically optimized .223 out there, which sounds like a PITA to do.
Available ammo, available reloading supplies, low recoil, and fun factor makes the .223 a great round. I just don't agree with trying to turn it into something it was never meant to be, there's much better cartridges to fill that role.
My 223 is my favorite rifle to grab when I head out to the prairie land to ring some steel. I got into the Savage/Stevens actions bcak in the day because they were cheap and I could change out anything I wanted myself. Although all I got is the action left the rest is all aftermarket stuff. I went with the ELD 80s thought it was the most ideal for me. I switch between 2 barrels (JCC) summer/heavier for the 80s and a (shilen) lighter/winter 69gr TMKs for yotes. Happy for what it is/does.
People just take these threads and run with them without much regard for what the OP actually wants, haha. The OP asked for a good, reasonably priced .223 for bench shooting. The early answers were spot on. Something like a Tikka in 1:8 (or 7 if available). Shoot 75/77 class bullets and call it good. Will perform fine inside 700 yards with the usual caveats of worse performance in gusty winds and harder to spot than something bigger. Then the usual suspects come in and go on and on about hot-rodding a .223 (because it's their own personal "thing") when the OP stopped responding a few pages back and probably just bought a Tikka, haha
Funny how these threads always evolve into a "what you need to be competitive in F-class" threads...
Agreed the thread took a drift, but not for nothing...
Often times people restrict their bias and perceptions of what can be done to over the counter options, later to grow out of it and wish their original approach could be made better later without a whole new rifle. I wish 40 years ago, someone with the forethought had guided me away from certain things I did back then just because that's what everybody did at the time.
The 223 and 308 share the same problems, both are traditionally offered in action lengths and magazine lengths that inhibit the configuration to load for effective long range shooting. My first 223 was a Sako... nice rifle, but there was no way to feed or eject the loads I run today. My 308 F Class rifle is built on a short action rem 700 and it cannot feed or eject the loads I run in it. I have to remove the bolt to eject a live round. Today I would build a 223 on a short action Remington and I would build a 308 on a long action suitable for a 30-06. Even today, few people have the wisdom and forethought to consider how long a suitably configured round is and what it needs to both feed and eject.
Better to be forewarned of the pitfalls of decisions that later limit growth, even if the Op is not currently interested.
Often times people restrict their bias and perceptions of what can be done to over the counter options, later to grow out of it and wish their original approach could be made better later without a whole new rifle. I wish 40 years ago, someone with the forethought had guided me away from certain things I did back then just because that's what everybody did at the time.
The 223 and 308 share the same problems, both are traditionally offered in action lengths and magazine lengths that inhibit the configuration to load for effective long range shooting. My first 223 was a Sako... nice rifle, but there was no way to feed or eject the loads I run today. My 308 F Class rifle is built on a short action rem 700 and it cannot feed or eject the loads I run in it. I have to remove the bolt to eject a live round. Today I would build a 223 on a short action Remington and I would build a 308 on a long action suitable for a 30-06. Even today, few people have the wisdom and forethought to consider how long a suitably configured round is and what it needs to both feed and eject.
Better to be forewarned of the pitfalls of decisions that later limit growth, even if the Op is not currently interested.
I struggle with this logic... So if a guy wants to shoot a 223 you are saying its best to leave it as it comes dispite its factory spec design short sighted limitations, and then buy another rifle scope etc that in its factory offering is better, yet the "better options you suggest are actually full custom builds and the brass and dies are "exotic".
So we buy one boring rifle plus one custom rifle, instead of one slightly tweaked 223 that performs on par with pretty much any .224 projectile alternatives, unless you want to cook off barrels every 800 rounds? Seems like a case of diminishing returns.
I don't follow the math here.
We are back to the action length problem... All the suggested alternatives are large bolt face options that become practical simply because the rem 700 short action is long enough to throat them the exact same way I am suggesting that a 223 be throated. Then you're going to run light loads because you have to for practical reasons, but get the same speed as a long throated 223.
Even the 224 Valkerie suffers from the same problem as the 223... Its so short that guys cant seat the bullet out far enough to get ahead of the donut and then for some mysterious reason, case capacity is choked off and nobody gets any meaningful speed or accuracy out of the thing. It's no bloody wonder, the shortness of the 224Valk is flawed from the start. Put it in a long action with a long throat, run heavies and it would be a barn burner all day long. It would also feed from a mag with no tricks.
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I'm saying that if you are going to trick out a .223, which requires going with a custom barrel at a minimum, you may as well go with a cartridge that is ballistically superior.
It's easy to get .22BR's to feed, and barrels last 2,000+ rounds.
You are not getting a tricked out .223 or a .22BR from the factory. So either get a factory gun and live with the limitations, or go custom and get a more fit for purpose centerfire .22.
