New forum idea

Very well put, Ian. There seems to be the perception that enough people say it, it must be true, or worse yet, because someone says it enough, it must be true. I am all for getting new people involved in our sport, as long as they are the right people, with the right reasons. Another perception that I struggle with greatly is that cheap stuff that performs OK, is better than exspensive stuff that performs better, because the cheap stuff costs less. Everyone has to exist within their means, but don't use that to promote substandard stuff as being better. The used, decent rifle, seems to be often overlooked in favour of the brand new cheap rifle. I equate this to fella pouring a ton of money into and old beat up car, always trying to make it better. By the time its all said and done, he could have bought a way better car, for less money. This is a lesson many of us have learned the hard way, and a lesson some will never learn. I would hope that we can all agree that if a guy is just starting out, and wants to put some rounds downrage, and perhaps shoot an animal or two, but only has $500.00 to spend, we can point him in the right directions. But a guy who has shot some, and has a hunting rifle or two, and would like to get more accuracy, or start shooting in matches, and has a bit more money to spend, probably would be disapointed in that same rifle. Including price points, there is always the "good, better, best" recomendation. But don't try to pass of the good, as being the best. It's not, and it never will be.

R.
 
New shooters need to be made aware of the truth...the cost of the rifle/optics doesn't matter because it is nothing compared to what you are going to spend on ammo.
 
Some great points have been made so let's look at the question from another angle.

PERFORMANCE....Not cost.

If a rifle and shooter can shoot 1/4 min (or whatever the goal is), does it really matter the overal cost of the set up?

This is where the 'equipment snob' sentiment expressed by many newbies comes from.

If a rig can be put together that meets the accuracy and precision goals of the shooter and task, does price really matter - whether cheap or expensive.

There are no shortage of hugely expensive custom rifles that would barely hold 1" at 100yds. But Engraving is pretty darn expensive. So is fancy Turkish Walnut. Did a 5 digit price tag (yes, that is over $10,000 US) make these rifle accurate or precise?

At last years Farky, a Mauser based F Open rifle did very well for its owner. Were any of the top spots won by great expensive custom actioned rifles or good shooters with accurate rifles built from FACTORY rifles?

So this where I usually get the 'polishing turds' BS. There is a cost to performance but what is the min? When is it expensive and exotic enough that others will perceive it as 'precision'?

Does it need to take 6 months to get the parts? Does it require importation of parts to make the grade? Does it requires a second mortgage to work?

What?

Ian Robertson's comment will always ring true for me - HOLES IN PAPER.

If it costs $500 or $5000, if the groups are the same size, the precision IS THE SAME.

One of the most common thing I see is condemnation of something that the poster has not tried. Dismissal based on prejudice is not the best way to widen ones horizons.

Because if they actually tried some of these 'turds', they might find that their performance exceeds their price tag.

Jerry
 
One of the observations I make is that if any of us want to be shooting into the future we have to grow this sport - that means welcoming new shooters ( especially women and young people ) at the range and on forums like this. Being dismissive of people because they don't own the "best" or "don't know what they are talking about " etc etc is a sure way to turn people off. Personally I find a clique of middle-aged white guys mumbling about the finer points of a subject to be cool and very interesting ( possibly because I am a middle-aged white guy LOL ) but they won't keep stores open, ranges open or minds open.

While some may find it amusing or annoying to see some totally impractical pimped out AR/858/SKS etc, you have to agree that the money the young "Tacticool" guys spend per annum has actually kept some stores solvent. Furthermore, if people feel welcome to participate in a sport they often branch out - there is no reason why today's young AR fan can't move into tomorrow's TRG/AW shooter and, further into the future, a custom-made benchrest owner. How many of today's guru's started out with a mil-surp SMLE or Cooey .22 ?
 
mysticplayer said:
Some great points have been made so let's look at the question from another angle.

PERFORMANCE....Not cost.

If a rifle and shooter can shoot 1/4 min (or whatever the goal is), does it really matter the overal cost of the set up?

This is where the 'equipment snob' sentiment expressed by many newbies comes from.

If a rig can be put together that meets the accuracy and precision goals of the shooter and task, does price really matter - whether cheap or expensive.

There are no shortage of hugely expensive custom rifles that would barely hold 1" at 100yds. But Engraving is pretty darn expensive. So is fancy Turkish Walnut. Did a 5 digit price tag (yes, that is over $10,000 US) make these rifle accurate or precise?

At last years Farky, a Mauser based F Open rifle did very well for its owner. Were any of the top spots won by great expensive custom actioned rifles or good shooters with accurate rifles built from FACTORY rifles?

So this where I usually get the 'polishing turds' BS. There is a cost to performance but what is the min? When is it expensive and exotic enough that others will perceive it as 'precision'?

Does it need to take 6 months to get the parts? Does it require importation of parts to make the grade? Does it requires a second mortgage to work?

What?

Ian Robertson's comment will always ring true for me - HOLES IN PAPER.

If it costs $500 or $5000, if the groups are the same size, the precision IS THE SAME.

One of the most common thing I see is condemnation of something that the poster has not tried. Dismissal based on prejudice is not the best way to widen ones horizons.

Because if they actually tried some of these 'turds', they might find that their performance exceeds their price tag.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry, I really don't know what to say. Your agenda is beyond obvious. I will agree with logic, and it is apparent that you you posses some. Performance is always going to be relevent to cost. The higher the performance, the higher the cost. What one is willing to pay for performance, can only be measured by what that particular individuals expectations are. You know as well as everyone else, that the majority of competions are won on rifles built on custom actions. Why? Because those shooters want the best. Remember the good, better, best? The best costs a lot more money than the good. If you want to build so-called good rilfes, have at it, but seriously, do not try to pass them off as anything else. If you think that a $500.00 rifle, will put the same holes in paper as a $5000.00 one, you are beyond help. If it were that simple, then the whole world would be shooting $500.00 rifles.
I have no love for Savage/Stevens products. I am not shy to admit it. The rilfe was designed to be cheap to manufacture, and cheap to sell. The whole design is based around a price point. The bolt is designed to minimize machine time, the barrel is designed to maximize tolerances, and thus minimize machine time. That is why it is adjustabe. The fact that it is accurate, is a testement to accidental engineering, as it is accurate quite by accident, as this was not the focus of the original design. Price was. And before you state that I am prejudice, I have shot several of them. None of them showed me a damn thing but poor design, and worse fit and finish.
I have stated numerous times, that we all have limits to what kind of money we spend on a rilfe. They all go bang, and they all hit paper. I have no problem with that. The problem I have, is that there are people like you, with an agenda, that are providing mis-information, to promote that agenda. That is wrong. Its wrong to do that to the shooting community as whole, and it is particularly wrong to do that to new shooters. When information is presented as fact, without any other options, it is no longer information, it becomes a biased opinion. There are many ways to build an inexspensive, accurate rifle, using components that don't have Savage and Stevens stamped on them. Are you aware of any of them?

I have a simple question for you. What kind of vehicle do you drive? Why did you choose that particular one? I ask only as an observation. There are many autos available, much like rifles. There are priced from good, better, and best, as are rilfes. People by cars, and rifles, for many different reasons. At the end of the day, even to cheapest car will get you to where you are going, will it not?

R.
 
Rman, Do you think a Rem 700 action is built at the factory strictly for performance or price?

I have built rifles from a wide range of actions from WWI specials to Rem 700's using all the latest tweaks. Been there, done that. There is no other platform that I can access readily that is as inexpensive as a Savage or Stevens build that will meet my accuracy objectives.

If there were, I would be experimenting with them too.

Over the last 6yrs and a large number of Savage/Stevens ( and a larger number of barrels), I have found performance that meets my objectives as an F class competitor. I have stated many times that my goals are 1/4 min to 1/3 min at 300m using heavy VLD bullets over the course of fire typical of this event. If the rifle can't hold the V bull mechanically, it really isn't worth competing with.

My wind doping skills notwithstanding, the rifles have performed as desired. And to date, I have not modified the actions in any way except bolt timing to make bolt lift easy to operate and swapping in trigger groups.

I have never suggested my builds would even be competitive in events like SR BR. Not even close for this world BUT for F class, tactical, varminting, LR hunting, or where ever shooting in the 2's and 3's are desired, it works.

Is this level of accuracy precise enough? I bet it will satisfy the vast majority of those who frequent this forum.

And I am sure that if you were to look elsewhere, there are dozens of such posts from shooters all over the world. My situation is neither unique or biased. Some of the biggest Palma and F TR events were won by 'Factory' Savages last season.

Of course, these were shot by some of the best competitors in this sport but if the gear wasn't competitive, you can't finesse a 2 MOA rifle into a 1/2 MOA X ring. There is at least 1 US LR record now held by a Factory Savage - should still be on the Hornady website.

I have no concerns that you may not like a particular brand or product. To each his own but to categorically say a product is not up to a task, that is pretty short sighted.

I put holes in paper and call them as they land. From what some top gun gurus report in their LR rifle performance, 1/4 to 1/3 min accuracy is pretty much the norm for their big dollar builds too.

We have never met but those that have know that I provide info based on what I have done, not what I have read or heard 3rd hand. When I say that I have pushed a 223 to a mile, 30 other shooters saw that happen. When I say that my F class rifles can be competitive, I have plastic that shows I am not blowing smoke. When I suggest things about case modification and chamber specs, it's because I have wildcatted for a decade and tried these things.

I shoot F class with the intent to win or at least place on the podium. I have the resources to use whatever better mousetrap I want. I also have a 'Scots side' that makes me curious to see how much performance I can achieve for the least amount of funds spent.

I see this frugality as being a positive to make precision shooting more accessible. That allows more to afford to come out and play. That is good for the sport and for the industry that supports it.

Why am I testing and spending a fair chunk of change on 223s (yes, more then 1) and 90gr Berger VLD's when I don't even compete in F TR? maybe it is because if we can make this combo work, a whole lot more shooters can afford the cost and recoil of shooting. Target audience getting more wives, kids, and shooters with busted shoulders involved in F class.

If shooters can achieve performance for 1/2 or 1/3 the cash outlay, why not?

So again, I go back to my original question - At what cost is a rifle considered accurate and precise?


Jerry

And if you get a chance to come out to the OK valley, I would be happy to take you out and do some LR shooting.
 
guys the sub forum is not going to happen,anytime soon

I own all factory rifles, all 308 was planning a 260 AI build till my Divorce happend, but I still shoot critters at long range with my POS factory LTR,ring my gong at 1000meters with it (20" plate) pushing oldschool 175smk's..........

my point is this is a rich mans sport for me I spend my cash on triggers and glass( I cant hit what I cant see) and I spend alot of time putting bullets down range,I would love to have Rick,Ian,Steve atc etc build me a gun but funds just are not there for me at this time


so what I would like to see is a lot less dog piling here,and be nice to the newbies( the more shooters we have the better) even if they cant stay in there lane. Also this is the web most people have no idea who there are talking too or if that person is FOS and or a wannabe who reads WAY to much Swat.

be kind and get out and shoot in the bad weather lay off the coffee and hit the reloading bench
 
mysticplayer said:
Rman, Do you think a Rem 700 action is built at the factory strictly for performance or price?

Over the last 6yrs and a large number of Savage/Stevens ( and a larger number of barrels), I have found performance that meets my objectives as an F class competitor.

I have never suggested my builds would even be competitive in events like SR BR. Not even close for this world BUT for F class, tactical, varminting, LR hunting, or where ever shooting in the 2's and 3's are desired, it works.

Is this level of accuracy precise enough? I bet it will satisfy the vast majority of those who frequent this forum.


I put holes in paper and call them as they land. From what some top gun gurus report in their LR rifle performance, 1/4 to 1/3 min accuracy is pretty much the norm for their big dollar builds too.

We have never met but those that have know that I provide info based on what I have done, not what I have read or heard 3rd hand. When I say that I have pushed a 223 to a mile, 30 other shooters saw that happen. When I say that my F class rifles can be competitive, I have plastic that shows I am not blowing smoke. When I suggest things about case modification and chamber specs, it's because I have wildcatted for a decade and tried these things.

If shooters can achieve performance for 1/2 or 1/3 the cash outlay, why not?

So again, I go back to my original question - At what cost is a rifle considered accurate and precise?


Jerry

And if you get a chance to come out to the OK valley, I would be happy to take you out and do some LR shooting.
Click to expand...

Jerry. I'll start at the start and address each question you have asked.

I think a Remington action, based on the design, is built at the factory primarliy for performance first, followed by price. If it were such a crappy action, then why are some of the best custom actions available based heavilly on its design?

You have built "custom" rilfes for the last 6 years? And this makes you an expert? The fact that you have specifically targeted the cheapest rilfes availible to make your "custom" rilfes from does not show well for your confidence as a "builder" or a bussines owner.

How many, exactly, F class matches do you shoot in a year? And where?
The reason I ask would be based on what kind of competion you face at these matches, and the quality of rilfe you are pitted against. You do realize as well that there is a great big world beyond your 300 meter one? A decent quality, better grade hunting rilfe could be very competive at 300 meters.

Believe it or not, you are not the only one to have "pushed" a .223 to a mile. Quite frankly, I do not see why you hang this out there like some kind of feat that qualifies you as an expert? An expert in not using the right tool for the job? Given little time, and the right day, with right equipment, and a decent sized target, most any calibre can be pushed to that distance. It is just physics.

And that brings us to the end. You stated: "If shooters can achieve performance for 1/2 or 1/3 the cash outlay, why not?"
Because you will always get what you pay for. If all they have is 1/2 or 1/3 the cash to outlay, then there really isn't that much to talk about. By your own admission, there are better tools availible than the ones you provide, but somehow your's being cheaper makes them better? This justifies what you do, which is why you promote it so heavily, but it does not make it right.

"At what cost is a rifle considered accurate and precise?"

What is this rifle to be used for? How much money does an individual have to spend? A single shot .22 for $50.00 can be very accurate and precise. Unfortunatly, accuracy and precision are directly related to cost. If a fella wants to get into LR hunting, which to most is well beyond 300 meters, he is going to have to invest heavily in equipment. If a fella wants to punch holes in paper at 300 meters, and that is all, then the investment will not be as high.

And the very last, but not least, your invitation to come and shoot LR with you in Summerland. Would this be one your self promoted/self advertised LR matches held on public land? I think you got that figured out now, that that's a bit of a no-no? There is some of the best long rang shooting availible in Western Canada right here, on private land, as well as private, insured ranges, where proper shoots are held. I would also be concerned about the quality of "instruction" I would receive based on your six years of rifle building "expertise" and ten years of "wildcating" cartridges.

Pretty much anyone can take existing cartridge designs and modify them a degree here and a mm there, and call it whatever the hell they want, but it don't make them an expert. And, they can do the same with an inexspensive rilfe built to fill a price point in the market, but that don't make it the best. It doesn't even make it better. It just makes it a good option for the money spent.

You never did tell me what kind of car you drive.

R.
 
So, since I have always been a believer that one must do as much research as he/she can and come to their own conclusions. Especially with things you read on the internet, some people just plain talk out their ***.

Being a new shooter with no experience in gunsmithing, you should be able to explain why the rem action is so much better than the savage/stevens action? Could it be the fact that the rem has just been around so much longer than these "at home switch barrel" rifle that you despise? What makes a trued and blueprinted rem action any better than a trued and timed Savage action? What is the real difference when a quality, match grade barrel is screwed onto it, whether it be held on with a barrel nut or not. Why do people say the tang must be free floated when bedding a rifle, yet the same results come from a rifle that has it bedded as well. Why does an action that is totally free floated using a barrel block, give the same performance as one that is pillar bedded?

I am not trying to come across as a d***, I am just trying to get answers to these questions. It seems I can't get a straight answer from anyone, because I don't know of someone with scientific proof that one is better than another, its still just opinion no matter how much one pushes it. If you are not able to answer these questions I would hope you are able to point me in the right direction.

So by what you said previously, If I spend $500 on a scope that tracks well and has enough mag for me to see the target at whatever range I need it to, does that mean I won't get the same group size as if I spent 5 times as much on a March scope? 1/3 MOA is 1/3MOA no matter which way you look at it. Yes there are differences and the $500 scope will likely not last near as long as the March, does that mean I have to sell my first born to pay for it right off the bat? If someone invests $1500 in a rifle that shoots the same as a $3000 rifle, does it matter what it's components are?

You are correct if a car gets you from A to B, what is the difference? The only difference is a person's preferences and budget. What's the reason we see so many 3/4 and 1 ton crew cab diesel trucks driving to the grocery store? There is a plethora of choices that ultimately do the same things, go from A to B. Some cost $400, some cost $50,000. They both get there.....

So, seeing as I am still very inexperienced in this hobby, maybe you can answer these questions?

Signed,
Still looking for answers....
 
Rman, we see things from different perspectives. That great.

With 78 posts, we really haven't heard much about you, what you enjoy shooting.

Tell us a little about what/where your interest/experience lie. You show very strong opinions on what doesn't/can't work. Tell us what you feel will.

Maybe that will explain the question I left for you in earlier posts.

If not, no biggie...

Have a great shooting season.

Jerry
 
"Being a new shooter with no experience in gunsmithing, you should be able to explain why the rem action is so much better than the savage/stevens action?"

I never said I was a new shooter, or said weather or not I had any experience in gunsmithing.

I'll do my best to answer your questions, I am not an engineer, nor a gunsmith, nor a machinest, nor do I pretend to be either.

"explain why the rem action is so much better than the savage/stevens action? Could it be the fact that the rem has just been around so much longer than these "at home switch barrel" rifle that you despise?"

The Remington 700 action has been around since the early 1960's. The Savage action has been around even longer, since the 1950's. So longevity really doesn't have much to do with it. I am not qualified to pick apart either action from an engineering standpoint. Based on design, the Remington action will have tighter tolerances. A standard Remington action would also prove to be stiffer than a standard Savage action based on construction across the top and sides of the action. These will transfer to both actions if trued and printed/timed.

"What is the real difference when a quality, match grade barrel is screwed onto it, whether it be held on with a barrel nut or not."

Some of the differences in quality between a match grade barrel that is screwed into the action, as opposed to one with a barrel nut, is again tolerance. The non-barrel nut barrel must have tighter tolerances in order to headspace correctly, It only fits one way. The barrel nut barrel, by design, uses the barrel nut to set headspace correctly. This can easily be installed incorrectly, and to bigger tolerances than the screw in barrel.

"Why people say the tang must be floated when bedding a rilfe?" The whole idea behind bedding and action is a tight, consistant bond between the action and the stock in order to minimize movement. Some feel this can be acheived by only bedding the lug, and others the action. I personally bed the whole thing, as the more surface area in contact, the more evenly distributed the stress is.

Why does an action that is totally free floated using a barrel block, give the same performance as one that is pillar bedded?
Both are distributing the stresses evenly, and minimizing movement, and are both effective.

"I am not trying to come across as a d***" You're not. I'm not either.

"It seems I can't get a straight answer from anyone, because I don't know of someone with scientific proof that one is better than another" There are engineering anaylisis' out there ao varing components and actions, but scientific proof is hard to come by. Alot of this stuff is trial and error, and as I have been saying, there is no one right answer. There are too many variables.

So by what you said previously, If I spend $500 on a scope that tracks well and has enough mag for me to see the target at whatever range I need it to, does that mean I won't get the same group size as if I spent 5 times as much on a March scope?

It means you won't get the same quality of scope, and that may affect your group size. I haven't seen a $500.00 scope that would hold a candle in image and repeatablity quality to a $2000.00 scope. Again, it's all about what you can afford, and be happy with.

"Yes there are differences and the $500 scope will likely not last near as long as the March, does that mean I have to sell my first born to pay for it right off the bat?"

The fact that the $500.00 scope will not last, and that most are aware of this, does qualify it as a poor investment. Again, if this is what one can afford, then there really is no argument, but do not try and say it is just as good as a far more exspensive scope, because it is not.


"If someone invests $1500 in a rifle that shoots the same as a $3000 rifle, does it matter what it's components are?"

Nope, it does not. But if $1500 rilfes shot the same as $3000 rifles, there wouldn't be very many $3000 rifles, would there?

So, seeing as I am still very inexperienced in this hobby, maybe you can answer these questions?

I did the best I could. I hope this helps. I'm sure there will be others to add or subtract to what I have said. There are no really right, or wrong answers. The thing to remember when shooting is try to eliminate or reduce as many variables as possible. How you choose to do this depends on lots of things.

R.
 
mysticplayer said:
Rman, we see things from different perspectives. That great.

With 78 posts, we really haven't heard much about you, what you enjoy shooting.

Tell us a little about what/where your interest/experience lie. You show very strong opinions on what doesn't/can't work. Tell us what you feel will.

Maybe that will explain the question I left for you in earlier posts.

If not, no biggie...

Have a great shooting season.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Jerry, I've asked you several specific questions, how bout you answer them?

I have never said that stuff doesn't/can't work. I've said that there is stuff out there that works better, and that one shouldn't try and compare lesser to better and come out ahead based on price.


What question did you leave me in an earlier posts?

I try to answer questions when asked, it's kind of rude not to.

R.
 
Obtunded said:
Instead of looking at the way new shooters have been treated, it is perhaps time to look the other way around and see how expert shooters have been treated here. There are a few expert shooters that that remain here, but many rarely contribute if ever.
Click to expand...
Touche. A few of the ones that I know on here are helpful in person/email, but don't really contribute to the board any more. It sucks.

Figure this thread will be locked soon?
 
carbonrod said:
Figure this thread will be locked soon?
Click to expand...

I drive a Subaru WRX265 that is set to play, how does this make me a better shooter? Rman- can you answer that?:confused:

I hope the weather is better for everybody this weekend as I am taking my ride and my rifle for some use this weekend. Hope that in the future the pursuit of precision can be enjoyed by all regardless of what level you play at.

I am a rookie at this precision stuff with factory gear but my goals are to get sub 1/2moa at 500 yards and sub moa at 1000yards. What sub-catagory will this put me in with a rifle that I will hike into the wilderness shooting spots I have developed and will develop? (Bipod and sling set-up)

For the record I have learned a great deal from this site and others and Its great when ideas are discussed without personal attacks. I have learned to value the ideas of those with the time in and one day hope to spend the funds to learn it for myself. Till then the factory stuff will still teach me a lesson or two;):D
 
"I drive a Subaru WRX265 that is set to play, how does this make me a better shooter? Rman- can you answer that?"

Yes I can. It will make you a better shooter, because you know the difference between good, better, and best. Transfer the same philosphy that made you buy that particular car, to a rilfe build, and you'll come out miles ahead.

"I am a rookie at this precision stuff with factory gear but my goals are to get sub 1/2moa at 500 yards and sub moa at 1000yards. What sub-catagory will this put me in with a rifle that I will hike into the wilderness shooting spots I have developed and will develop? (Bipod and sling set-up)"

I have no idea what sub-catagory it will put you in, nor do I care. Lets try and wring as much as you can out of that rilfe. Tell me about it. What factory gear do you have? Calibre? What kind of shots are you making now? Optics?

R.
 
Thread has been hijacked again. Rich man, poor man all over again.

IMO, those that have deep pockets can spend whatever they want and have bragging rights. I always appreciate a fine gun that is well made. I can only enjoy the experience from others photos.
The vast majority in life don't have deep pockets and have to budget everything. It becomes a sense of pride for the man with less means and manage to pull off a win here and there.
Do you need a $5000 rifle to win? No.
Can a $500 rifle win? Yes, but it will take a lot more effort on your part to pull it off. I've seen both and can appreciate it all.
I think the whole here at CGN is comprised of both and everything in between. No subforum needed. It seems to cater to all income levels.
 
lejarretnoir said:
Thread has been hijacked again. Rich man, poor man all over again.

IMO, those that have deep pockets can spend whatever they want and have bragging rights. I always appreciate a fine gun that is well made. I can only enjoy the experience from others photos.
The vast majority in life don't have deep pockets and have to budget everything. It becomes a sense of pride for the man with less means and manage to pull off a win here and there.
Do you need a $5000 rifle to win? No.
Can a $500 rifle win? Yes, but it will take a lot more effort on your part to pull it off. I've seen both and can appreciate it all.
I think the whole here at CGN is comprised of both and everything in between. No subforum needed. It seems to cater to all income levels.
Click to expand...

It is not about rich man, poor man. I've said that several times. Shoot what you have, within your means. We all have limits.

R.
 
This is stupid guys.

Last thing we need is a Savage VS Remington thread again and Rman's vendetta against Jerry is tiring.
Jerry has proved himself to many of us over and over and was instrumental to getting me into the sport. Once I had the money I built on a Remmy action and it shoot very, very well. Better than me, but if someone likes Savage better than Remington who cares.
Rman, I am sorry, but you are coming across as an arogant jerk, even if you don't think so. I can tell you what Jerry's "agenda" is right now. To get more people shooting. Pretty hard to encourage them when you come at them saying don't bother unless you are prepared to drop $6k on a rig that will take 12 months to put together. A little easier if you can get in for easier under 2k. A savage with a match barrel will shoot better than most people can.

Jerry has shown over and over that he can make these guns shoot well enough or better than we want and its great for a new comer. Your accusations of spreading "misinformation" is unfounded as Jerry has even posted videos showing these guns do what he says.

On the minus side the forum does fill with a lot of "budget precision" and the true precision rifle talk gets buried.

Anyways, Jerry can stick up for himself, but I needed to squeek up as this thread is getting closed anytime now and mods are going to hand out some warnings soon I am sure.
 
Rman said:
"I drive a Subaru WRX265 that is set to play, how does this make me a better shooter? Rman- can you answer that?"

Yes I can. It will make you a better shooter, because you know the difference between good, better, and best. Transfer the same philosphy that made you buy that particular car, to a rilfe build, and you'll come out miles ahead.

"I am a rookie at this precision stuff with factory gear but my goals are to get sub 1/2moa at 500 yards and sub moa at 1000yards. What sub-catagory will this put me in with a rifle that I will hike into the wilderness shooting spots I have developed and will develop? (Bipod and sling set-up)"

I have no idea what sub-catagory it will put you in, nor do I care. Lets try and wring as much as you can out of that rilfe. Tell me about it. What factory gear do you have? Calibre? What kind of shots are you making now? Optics?

R.
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I was wonder wher the cut off would be for a sub catagory? I have a .308 rifle that was purchased to go target shooting(plinking) and deer hunting. I have shot as a best- .32moa at 300 yards and .5 moa at 500 yards. Just changed to a 20moa base and better rings(US Optics) to try for longer distances.

I would perfer one forum as I have learned a lot from several different posters here. I have learned more in the hunters forum too and dont want to miss out on all the comments from anyone with experience. If you specialize too much it might mean missing out on some good ideas. Maybe a few stickied threads at the top of the forum that are well structured might prevent some of the frustrations as of late.

Thanks for the car comment but I bought it because it had a nice colored interior:eek: Joking :D
 
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