New Hunting Rifle Caliber

Some 243’s now have faster twists barrels. Tikka is 1:8 and weatherby 307 model shows 1:7.5. Those can shoot the new slick bullets.
I was speaking on the 240 Weatherby. I'm sure there are some custom 240 wea with fast twist, but if i was doing a 6mm custom, it wouldn't be a 240 Weatherby.


The op has stated, he's not a reloader. So all of the f the reloader geek rabbit hole stuff doesn't apply.
 
This is one thing that doesn't make any sense to me.
You guys can use a .270 but not a 44 in a lever gun which has way less range.
What's the reasoning behind this?
There is absolutely NO rationale to that rule. None at all.
Makes about as much sense as our antiquated ( and removed) law in Alberta about a minimum cartridge length!
Cat
 
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the 6.5 Grendel is essentially the 30 gr powder class 308, can't wear a barrel out, similar bc/sd/trajectories and they kill deer/black/bear/coyotes/wolves to beat the band, fun to shoot, just buy cases of factory hornady 123gr eld match and use it for everything, it mimics a 308 168gr eld match about 3/4 scale with about 55% less recoil, the only difference is it's a 52,000 psi cartridge in factory form to run in semi-auto's so it's a bit slower than the equivalent 308 but you can compensate for that by going longer barrel than you would on a 308 as about the only difference on trajectory and initial velocity, the upside to that is the lack of crack/pressure is very quiet to the animals for some reason you will see more chances and doubles/triples on deer if you have enough tags, you'll also get more lead in the air on a already hit perfectly deer as they don't seem to react as harshly if you haven't drt'd it, it's amazing how close animals can be to you if you have a slight wind in your favour and they don't react to the grendel shots....so call the trade off a wash between the little bit slower than equivalent 308 bc load, you can reload and bring pressures up to 308 and run right with it....

so for the light/trainer vs the main heavy the 6.5g 123 is the yang to the 308 168 yin, can't wear either one of em out plus it's big game legal most places, I know lots of usa or places where .22 cal is legal guys also like as low as a .223 with 77gr Sierra tmk (tipped match kings) and they kill even elk at 400...and sounds like they have a gazillion shot barrel life, there's also the 6 grendel (named 6 arc by hornady) but for a 6mm it will have a great barrel life....you can wear them out though, so the true mirror to the 308 qualities but in that 30gr powder class is the 6.5g

look at howa mini, ruger American for those, hopefully nicer rifles come along that chamber these awesome cartridges with some higher end features and quality, I'm sure it's coming as they are getting more and more popular since they started hitting shelves here in 2017 and exponentially more popular the past few years as the world catches on to the modern awesomeness of the x39 case, we've been running the 6.5 grendel in our house for 7 seasons now (since 2018) and it's been an awesome killer, 21 animals (not incl. coyotes) 10-420 yards, average shot distance about 170 yards, 7 species in Alberta (moose, bighorn sheep, antelope, whitetail, mule deer, black bear, wolf) and average recovery distance is about 11 yards...just flat out drt's most everything, have started adding some 308's and got 5 kills now with 308 but it's 3 drt vs 2 runners so far, one 15 yard recovery and one 60 yard recovery...in same last 2 seasons 6 animals killed with grendels and all of them drt's...
https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/backcountry-hunting-podcast/id1455406581?i=1000679445331
 
I was speaking on the 240 Weatherby. I'm sure there are some custom 240 wea with fast twist, but if i was doing a 6mm custom, it wouldn't be a 240 Weatherby.


The op has stated, he's not a reloader. So all of the f the reloader geek rabbit hole stuff doesn't apply.
I own a full custom 240 Weathrby Magnum. The downfall's to this cartridge is that both brass cases and ammunition are most expensive. Other than that, it sure kills big game!
 
Lol, gimmie coles notes, that happened to you then?
I blame Chuck for the ####storm this about to create….
That particular podcast started a a 28 page thread that is still ongoing. The podcaster initially started by having one of the Hornady guys (Steve) on to talk about their experiences in Africa where they used the 22 Creed and 22 ARC. He patted their nuts pretty hard through the podcast, and then a few episodes later went Full Street Preacher in his condemnation. That particular podcast was pulled after there were a few guys using the words “lies” and “slander” when discussing it, not to mention the Hornady guy participating and being absolutely irate about the outright false and incorrect portrayal of their experiences.

Full disclosure, this is not my post, but someone else already did most of the work so I merely copied it, as it’s reasonably close.

Highlights that I got from it:

  • He states that small-caliber guys are not being truthful about their results.
  • Due to testosterone increases during the rut, bull elk gain large amounts of muscle, and their skin thickens, which implies that small calibers won't be able to penetrate enough to kill a bull elk effectively.
  • Small-caliber bullets are not effective for strong quartering shots.
  • A small-caliber bullet won’t penetrate enough if you have to shoot through the Paunch to get to the vitals.
  • When faced with a once-in-a-lifetime animal, he encourages taking any shot that’s available, and a large-caliber bullet will make up for a less-than-perfect shot.
  • Elk and Moose shoulder blades are significantly bigger than Deer, but he is referring to the Length of the shoulder blade. He does not reference the thickness of the shoulder blade at all.
  • States that if small-caliber hunters believed in their choice, they would only shoot the animal once.
  • States small-caliber hunters need to do Journalistically Forensic Peer-reviewed necropsies to validate their data.
  • Several stories about large caliber bullets failing to penetrate entirely through animals. Does talk about one animal shot with a 223 in the brisket that failed to penetrate the thoracic cavity.
  • States small-caliber hunters would choose a different caliber if faced with a once-in-a-lifetime or dangerous game animal.
  • Agrees less recoil is beneficial.
  • He does mention a guy in New Zealand who kills hundreds of animals a year and has a bunch of data against the effectiveness of small calibers. Still, JVB does not provide any specific detail from him other than it's dangerous to use small calibers on big game.
  • JVB is entitled to his opinion and feelings but provides no data to validate that small calibers are ineffective for big game. The lack of supported data validates to me that this is all about getting views on social media
 
Hello to all, EDIT

I currently own a Tikka T3X Chambered in .308 and im looking into changing rifle calibers. i knoe the .308 does pretty much what i need it to do but looking for a change and versatility. the caliber would be mostly to hunt whitetail deer/black bear and smaller animals. i have a lot of people talk to me about 6.5CM and 6.5PRC what are your thoughts ( most notable flat shooting) otherwise what caliber would you suggest and why? i dont not reload ammo so will be factory loads

thanks
7mm -08 or 7mm Rem Mag are great choices, if u want to get below 30 Cal.

If u don't mind a bit of recoil 300 Win Mag is a great do all round, lots of ammo choices although pricier than .308,....hard to beat its ballistics/reach and versatility 150gr- 200gr.

I use the 300 WM in T3X Super Light, I only notice the recoil bench shooting after 15 rounds. Coyote to Elk, 400 plus yards no issues.

Good luck with your search.
 
I blame Chuck for the ####storm this about to create….
That particular podcast started a a 28 page thread that is still ongoing. The podcaster initially started by having one of the Hornady guys (Steve) on to talk about their experiences in Africa where they used the 22 Creed and 22 ARC. He patted their nuts pretty hard through the podcast, and then a few episodes later went Full Street Preacher in his condemnation. That particular podcast was pulled after there were a few guys using the words “lies” and “slander” when discussing it, not to mention the Hornady guy participating and being absolutely irate about the outright false and incorrect portrayal of their experiences.

Full disclosure, this is not my post, but someone else already did most of the work so I merely copied it, as it’s reasonably close.


no sh1tstorm from me, guys can figure it out themselves, they can read, watch, learn, and apply it all themselves, we have a dogleg here that culled a bunch of stuff with a fast .25 cal and 3 different bullets at wide range of distances and as just another piece of the formulas one can learn from...short story, bullets matter most, apply them appropriately for your goals and giver

there's a lot of folks out there misapplying due to not understanding and also not even doing it all yet still commenting on what they don't know yet as if they do know, lots of things kill, some formulas they die where you want em to die and some formulas they die anywhere but, it's a scale, not hard to tip the odds in your favour for whatever you prefer with all the choices available today, calibers don't mean much, headstamps don't mean much, it's all about the bullet, what does it do, for game intended and impact velocities intended

we've never had more info in the collective database to draw from and process to our own conclusions and then apply and learn what we like personally, the knee jerk reactors to new information isn't new, it's human nature, takes a long time for us in general to learn and move forward, the more of us involved the slower we move ;)
 
I don't have much to add that hasn't been said already, other than a word on "flat-shooting".
A lot of the new cartridges that are described as long range, flat shooting, having high bc bullets (Creedmoors, PRCs, I'm looking at you) only achieve those characteristics over older, similar cartridges at ranges exceeding about 500 yards. At the ranges most of us shoot at game (OP included as I understood it) velocity beats high BC in terms of flattening your trajectory. Mark of Mark & Sam After Work talks about this; his channel is mostly extreme long range target shooting, like 3000 yards with a .308, but he is an advocate of keeping hunting distances to 600 yards or below.
What this means is my recommendation for the OP would be an older, more common, more affordable, and faster cartridge than the newfangled stuff. Like the .243 Win if low recoil is a priority, or a 7mm Rem Mag if somewhat bigger bullets seem more attractive.
Not hating on the newer cartridges, they do what they are supposed to do, it's just easy to be mislead by flashy advertising. I just bought my first 6.5CM, and after owning a 6.5-300 Wby the ballistics at my actual hunting ranges look pretty sad. But it's a lot better on gas and doesn't cause me to wet myself at the range.
Like the fella said, "You can't have everything; where would you put it?"
 
All I want to know is. Are elk shoulders the same size as deer shoulders? Lol
As near as I can tell deer shoulders are smaller than elk shoulders. And elk shoulders are smaller than moose shoulders.

Not that it matters, I don’t seem to have any problems crushing moose OR elk OR deer shoulders and getting to the lungs with an 88 ELD m from a 223AI, even on big “rut crazed bulls” at “hard quartering angles”.
 
As near as I can tell deer shoulders are smaller than elk shoulders. And elk shoulders are smaller than moose shoulders.

Not that it matters, I don’t seem to have any problems crushing moose OR elk OR deer shoulders and getting to the lungs with an 88 ELD m from a 223AI, even on big “rut crazed bulls” at “hard quartering angles”.
I thought you were trying to avoid the sh1tstorm? LMFAO - this is on you now haha
 
7mm08 is one of the slowest 264s ... the original 7mm Rem Mag is: 284 Win.

Why not shoot a 140gr .264 bullet at 3000 fps or better, than 2600 to maybe, and that's maybe a stretch - cracking 2700fps?
 
7mm08 is one of the slowest 264s ... the original 7mm Rem Mag is: 284 Win.

Why not shoot a 140gr .264 bullet at 3000 fps or better, than 2600 to maybe, and that's maybe a stretch - cracking 2700fps?
Why not shoot a 28 nosler or a 7mm STW and go even faster?
There's always a higher performer out there, and you pay for it with your wallet and your shoulder. Everyone has to find their balance
 
I don't have much to add that hasn't been said already, other than a word on "flat-shooting".
A lot of the new cartridges that are described as long range, flat shooting, having high bc bullets (Creedmoors, PRCs, I'm looking at you) only achieve those characteristics over older, similar cartridges at ranges exceeding about 500 yards. At the ranges most of us shoot at game (OP included as I understood it) velocity beats high BC in terms of flattening your trajectory. Mark of Mark & Sam After Work talks about this; his channel is mostly extreme long range target shooting, like 3000 yards with a .308, but he is an advocate of keeping hunting distances to 600 yards or below.
What this means is my recommendation for the OP would be an older, more common, more affordable, and faster cartridge than the newfangled stuff. Like the .243 Win if low recoil is a priority, or a 7mm Rem Mag if somewhat bigger bullets seem more attractive.
Not hating on the newer cartridges, they do what they are supposed to do, it's just easy to be mislead by flashy advertising. I just bought my first 6.5CM, and after owning a 6.5-300 Wby the ballistics at my actual hunting ranges look pretty sad. But it's a lot better on gas and doesn't cause me to wet myself at the range.
Like the fella said, "You can't have everything; where would you put it?"
Great last quote

high bc bullets the real benefits as I see them are fighting the wind, drop is the easiest thing to get right with a rangefinder and a data set for your load, the harder thing to read is wind as that's on you not computers doing basic math, so high bc is a variable that can make or break an average or below average wind reader on kill shots, put the odds in your favour, and readily available modern cartridges are available that will take over the shelves for next 100 years are where I'd recommend any new hunter or shooter go if they plan on using rangefinders and want one day to be 600 yard capable, the 6.5cm is tough to beat for off the shelf recommendation

the second best 2nd benefit to high bc is you get high sd, which means adequate penetration for the typical game animals we hunt, regardless of construction, match construction included, and it turns out for those that prefer things dying where they can see them die that match bullets with adequate sd are the sh1t, I can give my own experience there by doing majority of work with .270 win/wsm and 140 accubonds, knowing what I know now I wish I was running ballistic tips instead, as my kids came along I jumped on the 6.5 Grendel train as soon as they were available here in 2017, factory slow 123gr eldm match bullets, over 7 seasons and 21 animals with those and 7 species in Alberta our average recovery distance is like 10-11 yards, so many drt's, the odd 50 yard recovery, and a few 15 yard recoveries...bit of an extreme example but most things with the 140 ab's burning double the powder the drt was rare and the runners more like 100 yards, pretty extreme example I've witnessed in my own processing info to my own conclusions and applying in the field, I know a spectrum and I prefer a much different formula than I started with in this game

there's another factor that aids in killing things while they are in sight still, first obviously is keeping it in sight, that means recoil #1 and the other is stock design with your shooting position behind gun to aid in straight back recoil pulse, both to help you watch it happen in scope, most people have no idea that's a thing at this point as they are generally shooting way too much hp that catching it in the scope and or keeping it in the scope is off the table, they've never experienced it, the best rigs now the reticle doesn't even come off the animal at the shot let alone off the entire fov, a 3rd factor to this is magnification range for your rifle system that allows you to watch it happen so some choices will allow you to be higher in mag and still be in the scope through the whole event, and ability to correct or send more lead into it to anchor it where it is...despite a 1st shot already through the good stuff, sort of a new development in understanding, there is other benefit to this ability in if you have more than one tag in your pocket, you could fill your whitetail tags all at once for example, there's only upsides to killing and recovery with this capability

the extended long range guys that were running custom hotrod magnums with super heavy for cal bullets are figuring it out, now they are trending away from the big custom magnums now even those guys are heading towards 6mm hotrods with 115 nose-ringed dtacs etc. as they see the benefits of being able to watch everything and correct and send more, which kids and I have done with 6.5 grendels on filling a couple tags at same time with one gun across a valley between two different shooters etc., the grendel is low pressure and quiet enough this is possible here, in the usa they use suppressors to get that effect of game not hearing enough at distances to run etc. but suppressors also aid in recoil reduction or stretching the pulse out so it's easier to see I scope, ie; 308 in sporter weight without suppressor you don't see it happen, with suppressor they do see it happen

it's not always over at the 1st shot, live animals, live trigger pullers, so it's being realized it's a thing to dead is dead but the difference being dead right there or dead over the backside of the ridge and down the valley aways ;)
 
Wanting to have another rifle in a smaller/lighter caliber than your 308 is always enough reason to buy a new rifle.
Gaining experience by experimenting with new new cartridges is always fun! (I know I sure have enjoyed this over the past 40 years!)

While the 243/6mm works great on deer, black bear do have heavier bone and muscle, and due to extra fat, loose skin and long hair, that tend to lend themselves for a larger caliber for better on-game performance, especially when bullet placement isn't as good as desired. (Here in BC, 22 calibers are illegal for hunting big game)

The quarterbore would be a better minimum. Not saying the 243 won't work, just that the larger diameter bullet has an advantage on baers over the the 6mms. The heavier 110/115/117/120 gr .257" bullets also help.
The 250 Savage does ok, with the 257 Roberts being better. But as a non-handloader, finding ammunition takes more effort. Have/have had both and enjoy both cartridges. The 25-06 takes it up another notch.

The 6.5's are a great caliber for both deer and black bear. The 6.5x55 has been labelled as THE best deer cartridge by some writers of the past. And the 6.5 CM and 260 Rem are ballistic twins. The advantage for the CM is the ability to handle higher BC bullets better than the two older cartridges. Not too hard to find 6.5x55 ammo, but most downloaded for the older surplus rifles. I have more trigger time and reloading experience with the 6.5x55 Swede than any other cartridge. The Creedmoor has the advantage of being more readily available and loaded to its potential as it is a modern cartridge found in modern rifles. The Federal Terminal Ascent ammo (130gr) works very well. I have taken game from smaller deer species to red stag with one shot kills with this ammo, and wouldn't hesitate to use it on black bear, as its great penetration should mostly provide full penetration and better blood trails. I also have a 6.5 PRC, and used to have a 6.5x284 (again, ballistic twins), the next level of performance and will flatten trajectories out, but more expensive to shoot. (I love the 6.5s!)

The 270 Win is a great cartridge that works very well on deer and bear, and definitely flattens trajectories. I also have/have had the WSM and Wby and am a fan of both. Harder to find ammo, and definitely more expensive, and can handle larger game.

The 7mm is a great caliber too, and actually my preference over the 270...just my personal opinion, (even though I still own a 270 Win and a WSM).
The 7mm-08 is a great cartridge, and the next step up from the 6.5CM/260 Rem/6.5x55. While many choose this round for women and youth, if more men used this round, it would be even more popular as it works very well. The 7x57 is its' older cousin and ballistic twin, usually loaded with heavier bullets than usually found in the 7mm-08.
The 280 Rem is the next step up, and one of my all around favourite cartridges. Over the years, I have taken more game with the 7mms than any other caliber (although most were taken by the faster magnums).

For a cartridge down a step from your 308, I would say my favourite at this time for deer hunting, given the available ammunition and bullet choices of today, has to be the 6.5 CM with the 130 gr Terminal ascent ammo (the 140 gr AccuBond being next in line). I have also taken caribou and moose with mine. And yes, while not my first choice for elk, I wouldn't hesitate to take an elk with mine, given a shot opportunity on an unwary animal within a reasonable distance, where I have enough energy for the respective distance on this resilient animal. But I would definitely stay away from that onside shoulder bone!
While I wouldn't be afraid to use it for black bear, I do prefer a larger caliber for this animal, and have other rifles I normally grab first...usually picking my 338 Federal or 358 Win.
My Browning X Bolt shoots this load @ 2855 fps, produces 0.291" groups at 100 yards and carries 2000 ft lbs of energy out to 140 yards, and 1500 ft lbs of energy out to 376 yards, and still has 1277 ft lbs of energy at 500 yards. Plenty enough for any deer or black bear.
My Winchester High Wall with its 28" barrel produces 2911 fps, bringing it closer to PRC velocity, and produces 0.599" groups @ 100 yards.
My wife is recoil sensitive and loved hunting with my X Bolt in 6.5 CM for her Arapawa Rams in New Zealand so much , she bought one when we got home! (So I take mine when we are out hunting, so that should she need a spare magazine for a quick reload, I can always hand her mine.)

With regards to flatter shooting calibers...with most of today's scope BDC type reticles and turrets, once you have your rifle zeroed for your chosen ammunition, either put the proper reticle point (BDC type reticles) on the target for the known range, or dial the turret for the correct distance, and shoot. Just verify these holdover points of impact at the range before hunting.
If you are using the typical duplex reticle, learning your dope for your ammunition, and correct holdover will take some time and burnt powder to verify at the range prior to heading afield on a hunt. (Although if your typical shooting distance is within 200 yards, zero for this distance and put your crosshairs on your target and shoot. In almost 40 years of hunting big game now, my average distance is just 132 yards!) If you are just practicing on targets at long range, again, the reticle or turrets are going to be set up, and the flat shooting aspect will be largely negated.
Wind drift will be another matter, and a bigger challenge!
 
While the 243/6mm works great on deer, black bear do have heavier bone and muscle, and due to extra fat, loose skin and long hair, that tend to lend themselves for a larger caliber for better on-game performance, especially when bullet placement isn't as good as desired. (Here in BC, 22 calibers are illegal for hunting big game)
Yeahhhhhhh, thats incorrect.

The only caliber law in BC is that you have to use centerfire for big game. (Bison excepted, which doesn’t have a minimum caliber but does have minimum weight of 175 gr and 2000 ft lbs at 100m).

As to bears, they aren’t more bullet resistant to bullets than a deer. Or an elk. They simply have a looser hide that moves around somewhat on their frame and longer hair which precludes a lot of blood getting to the ground.
 
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