New IPSC BC Doubletap

Slavex said:
Crapshoot, you have that right, they don't care how they are perceived, nor should they. If I am interviewing for a job then I obviously I do whatever is necessary (within reason) to ensure I get the job. But shooting is my time, just as is going to the movies, or camping or whatever. I don't give two s**ts what someone else thinks of my clothes, gear, fangs or anything else for that matter. Just because people do make judgment calls on how people dress, doesn't mean we should encourage that kind of behavior by trying to change who we are as individuals to meet their standards. That's not how life should be, you can do that if you like, I won't.
Oh and when I interviewed for jobs after going to BCIT, I wore all my piercings, and fangs, strangely enough I had 6 offers from 7 interviews. The one I didn't get an offer from was filled before the interview, but I asked to do the interview anyhow, just for experience.
On a further note, unlike any of you, I have had the joyous pleasure of having been to court due to my opinions and dress and actions. At the end of the hearing, during the judges decision, he tore a strip off of the Crown, and the investigating officer for doing the very thing so many of you not only think is ok, but condone, judging people without actually getting to know them. He sided with me, giving me a very strong decision in my favour. This is just one of the reasons I feel the way I do about these things. Some of you will be thinking I got what I deserved, and in the end I did, I won.
Education is the key, educate people to who we are, all of us, and then we'll see the sport grow. But stay close minded and the shooting sports will continue to dwindle.
Canuck44- yes the idea is idiotic. And it's nice to know that feel it's within your power to tell me, or anyone else what to wear. I'll remember that. I guess I'll make a motion at my club (of which I am prez), that no one over the age of 55 can shoot there. Why? well it makes just as much sense as what you're trying to push on me and others.
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So in your view there should be no limits as to what someone can wear in public or at a match? That it doesn't matter how profane the language is, as long the person has the right to express themselves in whichever way they like? And if there are limits what are the limits? Should we support the fact that personal freedom overrides the rights of children, for example, who shoot and attend matches not to see some of these things?



As I said previously, in all the cases that you quote above, they got to speak and relate to you directly and personally,and to find out about who and what you are. The general public does not have that luxury. They prejudge from a distance and often from wrong or from preconceived notions of what they see or hear.
 
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crapshoot said:
So in your view there should be no limits as to what someone can wear in public or at a match? That it doesn't matter how profane the language is, as long the person has the right to express themselves in whichever way they like? And if there are limits what are the limits? Should we support the fact that personal freedom overrides the rights of children, for example, who shoot and attend matches not to see some of these things?



As I said previously, in all the cases that you quote above, they got to speak and relate to you directly and personally,and to find out about who and what you are. The general public does not have that luxury. They prejudge from a distance and often from wrong or from preconceived notions of what they see or hear.
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I haven't thought through that carefully how I feel about proscribing all behaviour/modes of dress you mention ... just camo and BDU's. I do feel that as a general principal, fewer rules are better than too many.

In this light, one might observe that in general, at a public function, most people behave reasonably. In fact they tend to follow the lead of those around them .... so leading by example will be useful.

I would add that most anyone I have ever had to deal with has been very accomodating if you approach them individually and ask them to moderate their behaviour ... for example, because there are children, ladies, whatever present. Persuasion is better than compulsion, IMO.

Some 15 pages of debate later, would I behave against the IPSC standards? No, I am persuaded not to (except for camo, but I'd respect a request) .... but I believe that attempting to compel people over this is just plain wrong.

Freedom of choice issues are best addressed by persusaion and example.
 
Gothmog said:
I haven't thought through that carefully how I feel about proscribing all behaviour/modes of dress you mention ... just camo and BDU's. I do feel that as a general principal, fewer rules are better than too many.

In this light, one might observe that in general, at a public function, most people behave reasonably. In fact they tend to follow the lead of those around them .... so leading by example will be useful.

I would add that most anyone I have ever had to deal with has been very accomodating if you approach them individually and ask them to moderate their behaviour ... for example, because there are children, ladies, whatever present. Persuasion is better than compulsion, IMO.

Some 15 pages of debate later, would I behave against the IPSC standards? No, I am persuaded not to (except for camo, but I'd respect a request) .... but I believe that attempting to compel people over this is just plain wrong.

Freedom of choice issues are best addressed by persusaion and example.
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Yes leading by example is a good way to act, however there are so many people that have to be convinced individually. That's why, unfortunately, rules are "imposed" so there is a general understanding from the outset.

At any match I've attended most people are first "requested", not to wear profane sloganed clothing. But the officials of the match and the clubs have the final say in what is allowed.

But don't get me wrong I understand the need for some to wear camo, it's a fashion statement. Like most fashion statements it gives the wearer a certain identity, a feeling of individuality (even though they want to look like everyone else), a feelling of machoism. But what I don't understand is, what do you need to blend in with, when you are shooting an IPSC/IDPA stage? Unless you are trying to hide from the RO.

And that's the pointof the original article, if the wrong type of exposure is represented by media at a match, then we, as firearms owners will always lose. I'm not saying laying low, but in fact having a higher profile, with the right kind of exposure. Until the the majority understands. We can't be impatient, it's a long road.
 
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Slavex

"Canuck44- yes the idea is idiotic. And it's nice to know that feel it's within your power to tell me, or anyone else what to wear. I'll remember that. I guess I'll make a motion at my club (of which I am prez), that no one over the age of 55 can shoot there. Why? well it makes just as much sense as what you're trying to push on me and others"

Rob I have known you for a very long time so I will be frank.

This statement is juvenile in the exreme. Something I might more likely hear on a playground.

Society tells you how fast you can drive, where you can smoke, restaurants routinely tell you what you can wear, busniesses have dress codes for their employees, some have uniforms. Of course organizations can tell you what is acceptable dress and what is not. If you don't like the dress rules don't participate. You are faced with those decisions and options all the time in life. I would have thought you would have learned that by now.

If Abbotsford Rod & Gun Club chooses to exclude folks over the age of 55 that is there choice. Considering the largest voting block is society is over that age you might want to re-think such an idea but that would be the Club's decision.

Incidently it is not "I" or "Me" who is telling you what to wear it is IPSC. I can only comment on what I believe to be acceptable wear and whether I am in agreement or not with the rule.

You can accept the rule and even try to understand it or you can dress in Zombie shirts have the most obscene words printed on your T Shirts and shoot at your range to prove "Your" point and to heck with whether or not you offend anyone. Choice is really yours. I suspect though that if you show up at the IPSC Nationals or a sanctioned IPSC match you may find yourself on the outside looking in. Simply your choice.

Ain't life simple.

Take Care

Bob
 
DVC1911 said:
Stormbringer: You just don't get it. It is called respect. Respect for others, for the sport. We might not always agree and that is fine.
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Oh I most certainly get it.

You RESPECT.....only that which you agree with.

The very idea that you would think it within your powers to tell people to cover tatoos is just revolting.

Oh and here is a BIG clue.........

I HATE TATOOS!!

I think that they are stupid!
For the most part when I see someone all TATed up frankly I just shake my head.

However..............IT IS THEIR RIGHT!!

You are the one that is very very messed up on this issue.


Oh and Crapshoot..........I just heard on the news this week.

THEY CLOSED THE FLAMINGO FACTORY!!
The rising cost of plastics idd them in..

NO MORE PLASTIC FLAMINGOS!!!

the HUMANITY!!
 
crapshoot said:
But don't get me wrong I understand the need for some to wear camo, it's a fashion statement. Like most fashion statements it gives the wearer a certain identity, a feeling of individuality (even though they want to look like everyone else), a feelling of machoism. But what I don't understand is, what do you need to blend in with, when you are shooting an IPSC/IDPA stage? Unless you are trying to hide from the RO.
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Well I don't understand that there is a need to wear camo ... people just wear it because they want to, or because that's what they like to wear. By and large I don't personally wear it, except for a camo hat, and if its raining hard, a camo jacket.

I don't think too many are making a fashion statement (or trying to hide :rolleyes: ... you must be kidding :p ) , its just that the wearing of camo now is so common it has lost much of its original identification with military organizations ... which relates back to one of my original points.

If camo is no longer publicly perceived as military per se, there is no rationale whatsoever left to exclude it from matches ... regardless whether that rationale is based on opinion or fact.
 
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stormbringer said:
The very idea that you would think it within your powers to tell people to cover tatoos is just revolting.
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Before this gets any more out of control...I don't think anyone is suggesting that tatoos need to be covered up...(unless I misread a post)

I think we're concentrating on what is reasonably outlined in the rules (camo, offensive t shirts)

Oh an before you ask...:p If any members want to show up at a match in Ontario dressed head to toe in pink camo...who am I to say no :rolleyes:

How ever...and I want this to be absolutly clear...regular camo...and offensive T's are a no go.

We (IPSC Ontario) don't care about:
Solid colour BDU's
Long hair
Blue hair
no hair
tatoo's
piercings (although if I can't see them I don;t want to know about them)
etc...

You all may think it's silly...but so is alot of what we have to put up with in the Firearms Community.

I think it's time to let it go...no one is changing anyone elses mind.

L8R
 
1) One thing I think we can agree on is that, Bad press is bad for the firearms community no matter what the motives are. Well meaning shooters who get quoted or misquoted can be just as damaging as strategically placed images. We should try to leave media to the experts.

2) If the firearms community cannot get it together and understand each others sport, how do you expect the public to understand it? My case in point. And I hope that Sean or Nick A. interject to clarify facts. This past year IPSC made an application to the Olympics to be recognized as an Olympic sport. The presentation was to my understanding very good. However, (there is always a however) the organization who was tasked with promoting shooting sports to the Olympics, who is recognized by the Olympic committee basically stabbed IPSC in the back by representing IPSC as an organization who train military, para-military combat individuals If I am not mistaken that organization is the ISSF. Is it jealousy because IPSC style shooting is getting more members than them or is it ignorance? So if this "firearms community" organization has an image of IPSC or for that matter any other firearms group that is incorrect, what chance does the general public have in understanding the sport? Maybe this is really a question for another thread.
 
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Quigley said:
Before this gets any more out of control...I don't think anyone is suggesting that tatoos need to be covered up...(unless I misread a post)
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The point about tattoos came from here:

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1010063&postcount=9

DVC1911 said:
Let’s all be aware, and thoughtful, and careful. Let’s peel off the smart-ass bumper stickers and put away the goofy buttons. Wear something other than that death’s-head shirt. And if you have a skull-and-dagger tattoo on your arm, wear a long-sleeved shirt to the range.
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stormbringer said:
Oh and Crapshoot..........I just heard on the news this week.

THEY CLOSED THE FLAMINGO FACTORY!!
The rising cost of plastics idd them in..

NO MORE PLASTIC FLAMINGOS!!!

the HUMANITY!!
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It must be too much competition from the folks who wear pink camo.;) or it could be the excessive use of plastic in those Glocks.
 
crapshoot said:
This past year IPSC made an application to the Olympics to be recognized as an Olympic sport. The presentation was to my understanding very good. However, (there is always a however) the organization who was tasked with promoting shooting sports to the Olympics, who is recognized by the Olympic committee basically stabbed IPSC in the back by representing IPSC as an organization who train military, para-military combat individuals
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As I believe has been pointed out in the past, many of the foundation sports of Olympic Games are derived from 'skill at arms' types of competitions. The javelin toss is a prime example as are wrestling and archery, etc .... even the current crop of Olympic firearms sports has military associations, especially the biathalon.

Sometimes you just have to make the case that much sport and competition has a military/paramilitary origin and not attempt to conceal it.

Maybe the problem isn't us .... maybe its with all that social engineering and PC crap that is everpresent in our society.

I don't know how one might pull it off but wouldn't it be nice to have an alternative to the current Olympics which leaves out insipid judge based competitions such as synchronized swimming and figure skating and concentrates on true competitive sport.

But as you say, perhaps that is for another thread.
 
"Sometimes you just have to make the case that much sport and competition has a military/paramilitary origin and not attempt to conceal it."


This approach may have worked 100 years ago but in todays world with all that is going on including the UN attempting to shut down movement of firearms across borders and banning private ownership of firearms I doubt such an approach would work. If nothing else the Olympics are all about perception and politics. Very much like our own sport of handgun shooting.

Not sure why IPSC would want to be involved with the Olympics but as you said that subject is for another thread.

Take Care

Bob
 
Canuck44 Not sure why IPSC would want to be involved with the Olympics but as you said that subject is for another thread. Take Care Bob[/QUOTE said:
Perhaps it would help the mainstream understand the sport. Nothing like Olympic coverage!
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Gothmog said:
As I believe has been pointed out in the past, many of the foundation sports of Olympic Games are derived from 'skill at arms' types of competitions. The javelin toss is a prime example as are wrestling and archery, etc .... even the current crop of Olympic firearms sports has military associations, especially the biathalon.
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Yeah...that flies in general speak when we're explaining to a reporter that we're all sane and mature, but crashed and burned with the GAISF. ISSF (ISU), threatened by the fact that there would now be a second (and more interesting) shooting sport recognized worldwide, campaigned against IPSC's acceptance on the grounds that the sport is not a sport, it is para military training, and won (however wrong it was).

Had IPSC received recognition from GAISF, many regions would immediately be able to receive funding for shooting IPSC from their governments, (Even us in Canada) and as we saw last December, it would strengthen the sport from government encroachment. ("of course there would be exemptions to the handgun ban for Olympic recognized sport shooting" - PM Paul Martin, Dec 05)

IPSC's not done, they're going back at it again. It's worth the effort.

Crapshoot, I've not waded into this debate as to what is or isn't accepted because I see no reason to. While it has been especially entertaining to follow, this discussion is moot. The whole subject is completely covered by 5.3 and I've been Match Director enough times to know that unless a match is about to explode, I do not to tell a Match Director what to do. I have faith that Match Directors of sanctioned IPSC matches in Canada know how to interpret this rule for their circumstances and environments and I also know that if a competitor at that match feels that an MD did wrong, they have a process for complaint through their section, and finally to the NEC.

If anyone wants to debate rule 5.3 , Vince at The Global Village would be happy to accommodate you - he's the rules guy and especially loves Canadians with rules questions. ;)
 
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Freedom Ventures said:
IPSC's not done, they're going back at it again. It's worth the effort.

;)
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THat's great because I'm pretty sure there are a lot more IPSC shooters than there are javelin or shot-put owners:p
 
Does anyone else think that this Olympic discussion is worth separating this part of the thread off from the other, or should we just carry on?

For the record, I hope IPSC wins their rightful place at the Olympic Games ... your comments on " ... a second (and more interesting) shooting sport ...." certainly ring true. Your views on adding to the strength of shooting sports are also (if you pardon the expression) bang on.

But I still think camo is ok .... :D ;)
 
stormbringer said:
So who wrote it............

Inquiring minds want to know.

I know that I would NEVER write an article that I would not put my name on.
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The article was written for IPSC BCs Double Tap.

The writer was an editor for a large newspaper publication and an active IPSC shooter. He knows how reporters and the media think, because "he are one"
 
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