NEW Springfield XD-M
- Thread starter manley1111
- Start date
there are many thoughts on how/when to condition check your pistol. i prefer doing a press/pinch check only when initially loading my pistol. it is a confirmation that my pistol is loaded and that it will fire from the holster. if the slide is out of battery, you can fix that no problem and without stress. confirmation that your weapon (rifle, shotgun, pistol whatever) is chamber loaded when going into harms way or into competition should always be done.
i don't do press/pinch check after a reload or malfunction, because if i have to shoot, i have to shoot NOW. stress can do funny things to people and if you practice to press/pinch check after every magazine insertion, you may revert this practice under stress.
if the handgun goes 'click', that's when a tap and rack is done.
i'm not in favor of press/pinch checking you weapon all the time. although it may look 'cool', it doesn't look all that professional. for obsessive compulsives, it must feel reassuring though... hehe... for me, there is only one time i press/pinch check with a firearm, and that is when i initially load.
although manufactures design chamber loaded indicators or other 'safety' devices that can help you visually or physically check to see of the weapon is loaded, i do not think that the average person would be able to use these devices under stress to determine if their weapon was loaded or not. they are more for lawyer-proofing the manufaturer than helping the gun owner... IMHO. let's put it this way, if i come across a weapon with a chamber loaded indicator, i'm not going to trust that the weapon is either empty or chambered until i personally condition check the weapon to ensure it IS empty.
just my cent and a half
i don't do press/pinch check after a reload or malfunction, because if i have to shoot, i have to shoot NOW. stress can do funny things to people and if you practice to press/pinch check after every magazine insertion, you may revert this practice under stress.
if the handgun goes 'click', that's when a tap and rack is done.
i'm not in favor of press/pinch checking you weapon all the time. although it may look 'cool', it doesn't look all that professional. for obsessive compulsives, it must feel reassuring though... hehe... for me, there is only one time i press/pinch check with a firearm, and that is when i initially load.
although manufactures design chamber loaded indicators or other 'safety' devices that can help you visually or physically check to see of the weapon is loaded, i do not think that the average person would be able to use these devices under stress to determine if their weapon was loaded or not. they are more for lawyer-proofing the manufaturer than helping the gun owner... IMHO. let's put it this way, if i come across a weapon with a chamber loaded indicator, i'm not going to trust that the weapon is either empty or chambered until i personally condition check the weapon to ensure it IS empty.
just my cent and a half
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Mikjk,
I agree with your post for the most part. My concern is why learn and/or practice a press check if you aren't going to do it all the time? I mention checking the magazine capacity which I only do when I top up. Naturally if you cannot add the additional round your pistol didn't feed the first round. You are correct in that any action you've learned or trained yourself to do could come back to haunt you during times of stress. By not learning such behavior there is a zero chance your brain will choose such actions.
TDC
I agree with your post for the most part. My concern is why learn and/or practice a press check if you aren't going to do it all the time? I mention checking the magazine capacity which I only do when I top up. Naturally if you cannot add the additional round your pistol didn't feed the first round. You are correct in that any action you've learned or trained yourself to do could come back to haunt you during times of stress. By not learning such behavior there is a zero chance your brain will choose such actions.
TDC
The HS2000 (XD) was developed for the Croatian military after the last conflict. Features like the loaded chamber indicator and striker indicator which are both visual and tactile allow the soldier to confirm the status of his weapon in any light by sight or feel and more importantly silently. The service model also has a stand off device to avoid the slide moving out of battery allowing the pistol to fire when pressed up against an opponent. Not features necessarily useful at the gun club but I'm sure they come in handy on the battlefield.
Manly, my apologies for participating in this little thread hijack. Back to your original post- I have an XD and like it and will probably get the XD(M) when it it available. The grip appears to have a nice texture in addition to the interchangeable backstraps, the sights look like an improvement over the original, the ambi mag release is a nice feature and I believe all the new XD(m)s ship with match grade barrels. I think the overall length is a tad bit shorter that the tacticals currently available here. Unfortunately the mag capacity is moot for us Canadians.
What I'm saying, is that I just can't see the logic in preparing for carry by putting a loaded magazine into a pistol, racking the slide, then ejecting that magazine to see if a round went into the chamber. You are now fooling around with loaded pistol while you take your eyes off to look at the mag's winess holes, then reseating that magazine. In my personal experience with my duty pistol I have had two stoppages: One was a bad primer, and one was a poorly seated magazine. To me, doing a press check to confirm that you DO have a live round in the chamber prior to holstering up is the safest way to do this, as you have full control of the firearm, and are tapping back into battery prior to holstering up.
I would agree that the loaded chamber indicator seems redundant, regardless of what method you use to load up. As we (should) all know, it would also be redundant to "prove" an unloaded pistol, as there is no such thing without visually inspecting the chamber, and we should all be treating the pistol as "loaded" regardless.
My understanding based on 27 years of study of firearms, and 20 years of carrying loaded firearms on duty is that the NUMBER ONE problem likely with any semi-auto is going to be the magazine / magazine engagement to the action, which is why I don't like the idea of ejecting a mag to check loaded status.
I also am eager to hear other ideas, so please share yours.
Regards,
Neal
I don't drop the magazine to inspect the witness holes, I am confident the round chambered after I properly seat a magazine. If I'm unsure I'll 'tap" the magazine and cycle the slide again. When I top up during competition the pistol is loaded, the magazine released then the pistol is holstered. After topping up the magazine(this is where one may observe the witness holes, although being able to load the loose round should indicate that the first round did indeed feed) it is then reinserted in the holstered pistol and tugged on to ensure it has seated. This satisfies the RO and the range staff who feel it is "too dangerous" to draw the pistol again and insert the magazine. Even though that is exactly what is going to happen while under stress during the course of fire.
If removing the magazine from a pistol is a safety concern, perhaps the individual shouldn't be handling firearms. How engaging in an administrative task is somehow "fooling around" I'm not sure. What having your eyes "on" the firearm has to do with safely controlling the muzzle and keeping your finger off the trigger I'm not sure. Safety has little to do with your manual of arms, its a mindset/mentality when operating with firearms. There are only four rules for firearm safety. Anymore rules and you're wasting your time.
All guns are loaded and treated as such
Don't point any firearm at anything you have not decided to destroy
Keep your finger off the trigger until you've made the conscious decision to shoot
be sure of your target and beyond.
Press checks do work, but the risk of an out of battery condition is far more detrimental than an unseated magazine. An unseated magazine is the primary culprit when a failure to fire occurs, this I agree on. However, an unseated magazine is not the result of poor products or design. It is the product of poor training. If an individual does subscribe to some method of verifying that there is in fact a round in the chamber they would soon discover that the magazine is not or was not seated. Every time a pistol is put into action(from the holster, I'm not including reloads during use) without a round in the chamber due to an unseated magazine it is a direct result of poor or absent training. Anyone with sound training and a solid mindset will ensure their pistol is loaded and the magazine is seated.
TDC
If removing the magazine from a pistol is a safety concern, perhaps the individual shouldn't be handling firearms. How engaging in an administrative task is somehow "fooling around" I'm not sure. What having your eyes "on" the firearm has to do with safely controlling the muzzle and keeping your finger off the trigger I'm not sure. Safety has little to do with your manual of arms, its a mindset/mentality when operating with firearms. There are only four rules for firearm safety. Anymore rules and you're wasting your time.
All guns are loaded and treated as such
Don't point any firearm at anything you have not decided to destroy
Keep your finger off the trigger until you've made the conscious decision to shoot
be sure of your target and beyond.
Press checks do work, but the risk of an out of battery condition is far more detrimental than an unseated magazine. An unseated magazine is the primary culprit when a failure to fire occurs, this I agree on. However, an unseated magazine is not the result of poor products or design. It is the product of poor training. If an individual does subscribe to some method of verifying that there is in fact a round in the chamber they would soon discover that the magazine is not or was not seated. Every time a pistol is put into action(from the holster, I'm not including reloads during use) without a round in the chamber due to an unseated magazine it is a direct result of poor or absent training. Anyone with sound training and a solid mindset will ensure their pistol is loaded and the magazine is seated.
TDC
But if you have a defective magazine, there is potential for a round to not be chambered on your administrative load, no matter how hard you seat the magazine, or positively you cycle the slide - This is what I am arguing: If you do NOT do a press check to visually confirm you have a chambered round at the beginning of the work day, you are a liability. I will strongly agree that an out of battery slide is a possibility IF not trained to tap forward after the pinch check, BUT... If there ain't no round in the pipe, it's still gonna go "click" when it should have gone "bang", and you will be into a phase one Tap/rack/reassess regardless.
Like I said, we're going to have to agree to disagree, as we seem to be talking about slightly different applications.
Thanks for the insight - I am very glad that we agree on ACTS!
Cheers,
Neal
Like I said, we're going to have to agree to disagree, as we seem to be talking about slightly different applications.
Thanks for the insight - I am very glad that we agree on ACTS!
Cheers,
Neal
A defective magazine is again the result of poor training. Inspecting your gear prior to carry is important and must not be overlooked. If the magazine failed sometime between inspection and insertion, then someone with greater power than you has just pi$$ed in your cornflakes. I hope everyone who carries runs atleast 2 spare magazines.
That being said, I'm still running the original mags that came with my Glock 7 years and 26000 rounds ago. Never an issue. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't focus on the magazines as a failure point. I focus on me as the failure point. If you look after the gun, it will look after you.
TDC
That being said, I'm still running the original mags that came with my Glock 7 years and 26000 rounds ago. Never an issue. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I don't focus on the magazines as a failure point. I focus on me as the failure point. If you look after the gun, it will look after you.
TDC
Looks like a nice pistol....the XD just didn't feel good in my hand when I tried one.
TDC and Nelly,
Buy the sounds of it both of you now how to handle your firearms and even though you guys use different methods to check your pistol condition it just shows that we all have to do what works for us.
I don't compete or carry on duty but when I need to check the chamber I pull the slide back till I can see brass or not ....
TDC and Nelly,
Buy the sounds of it both of you now how to handle your firearms and even though you guys use different methods to check your pistol condition it just shows that we all have to do what works for us.
I don't compete or carry on duty but when I need to check the chamber I pull the slide back till I can see brass or not ....
I look forward to the XD-M when it is available here. It looks to be a nice pistol. I shot a .40S&W XD today and it is a nice pistol. I don't think I'd buy an XD-M, but it's always nice to have variety!
The reason I pinch check is that I have observed, and replicated, semiauto pistols and rifles with a partially inserted magazine have the action cycled without chambering a round.
Yes, the operator is at fault for not fully seating the magazine into the firearm and then attempting to load it, but it does happen. If your in a profession that puts you in harms way and you carry a firearm, I think it is prudent to visually check your chamber to make sure you are loaded before you step outside to conduct 'business'.
As I said before, I am not a proponent of pinch checking ALL the time. I only advocate that one pinch checks when initially loading your firearm... when you are not in harms way or under stress. To do a pinch check in the middle of a competition or a gunfight is bad ju-ju. Practicing pinch checking ALL the time is setting yourself up for failure.
Although I do not pinch check ALL the time, I do pinch check when I initially load my firearm ALL the time.
Yup, have to agree with nelly on this. It is not a matter of trusting that you did a proper load of your weapon, it's a matter of CONFIRMING that your weapon is loaded. Especially when you NEED the firearm to go BANG and not CLICK on your first trigger press.
Removing the magazine to check if a round loaded from the magazine is an alternative way to check if the firearm is loaded... it's just that I don't use this method with a pistol. I have used it when initially loading my rifle to check and confirm that my rifle is loaded if I'm in low light and when a pinch check is not feasible (when light discipline is important). I rarely use this method, but know how to do it when needed.
The reason I pinch check is that I have observed, and replicated, semiauto pistols and rifles with a partially inserted magazine have the action cycled without chambering a round.
Yes, the operator is at fault for not fully seating the magazine into the firearm and then attempting to load it, but it does happen. If your in a profession that puts you in harms way and you carry a firearm, I think it is prudent to visually check your chamber to make sure you are loaded before you step outside to conduct 'business'.
As I said before, I am not a proponent of pinch checking ALL the time. I only advocate that one pinch checks when initially loading your firearm... when you are not in harms way or under stress. To do a pinch check in the middle of a competition or a gunfight is bad ju-ju. Practicing pinch checking ALL the time is setting yourself up for failure.
Although I do not pinch check ALL the time, I do pinch check when I initially load my firearm ALL the time.
nelly said:
Yup, have to agree with nelly on this. It is not a matter of trusting that you did a proper load of your weapon, it's a matter of CONFIRMING that your weapon is loaded. Especially when you NEED the firearm to go BANG and not CLICK on your first trigger press.
Removing the magazine to check if a round loaded from the magazine is an alternative way to check if the firearm is loaded... it's just that I don't use this method with a pistol. I have used it when initially loading my rifle to check and confirm that my rifle is loaded if I'm in low light and when a pinch check is not feasible (when light discipline is important). I rarely use this method, but know how to do it when needed.
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Me? I chamber check all the time.
The sun does not rise and set on the Glock (alone). Truly, on a Glock, a striker indicator might be a useless feature. But, unlike your Glock, the XD's trigger does not betray the position of the striker.
I'm just dying to read of your "battlefield" experience, TDC.
Maybe I'm off base here...
If I am, it's not my fault...rather, it's from all that stress (from competition).
The sun does not rise and set on the Glock (alone). Truly, on a Glock, a striker indicator might be a useless feature. But, unlike your Glock, the XD's trigger does not betray the position of the striker.
I'm just dying to read of your "battlefield" experience, TDC.
Maybe I'm off base here...
If I am, it's not my fault...rather, it's from all that stress (from competition
).And so the open can of worms begins to wriggle...!
Apologies to the original poster, for this rambling back and forth. On a side note, my wife has an XD9, and has been very happy with it! I like it a lot, too, but it is just too small for my hands. (BLOODY accurate pistol, though!)
Apologies to the original poster, for this rambling back and forth. On a side note, my wife has an XD9, and has been very happy with it! I like it a lot, too, but it is just too small for my hands. (BLOODY accurate pistol, though!)
Wendell,
Don't cut and paste my post, it shows bad form. The complete sentence and statement reads as follows "This satisfies the RO and the range staff who feel it is "too dangerous" to draw the pistol again and insert the magazine. Even though that is exactly what is going to happen while under stress during the course of fire."
The point I was trying to convey is that many ranges and their RO's feel it is "too dangerous" to draw your now loaded firearm from the holster to reinsert the now topped off magazine. Even though, after the buzzer when your adrenaline is pumping you will do just that. The same action of loading a fresh magazine into a loaded pistol will also occur while under the clock and the stress of adrenaline. Why such actions are deemed dangerous when you're relatively calm is completely ignorant.
I have no battlefield experience, never indicated I did. I was responding to a previous comment regarding the usefulness of the striker indicator on the battlefield. Street corner, range, IPSC match or the battlefield. The venue doesn't matter, the striker indicator is a waste of engineering.
The XD or any pistol for that matter will not benefit from a striker indicator. If the indicator is down the pistol either failed to fire, or the pistol isn't loaded. How is this problem solved, with the immediate action drill of TAP RACK. The position of the trigger is irrelevant. Furthermore, if you managed to load your pistol and the striker did not charge, your pistol is f*cked. Of course you'll find out after you execute a TAP RACK to no avail then change mags with still no success(if you didn't notice the complete lack of resistance in the trigger).
TDC
Don't cut and paste my post, it shows bad form. The complete sentence and statement reads as follows "This satisfies the RO and the range staff who feel it is "too dangerous" to draw the pistol again and insert the magazine. Even though that is exactly what is going to happen while under stress during the course of fire."
The point I was trying to convey is that many ranges and their RO's feel it is "too dangerous" to draw your now loaded firearm from the holster to reinsert the now topped off magazine. Even though, after the buzzer when your adrenaline is pumping you will do just that. The same action of loading a fresh magazine into a loaded pistol will also occur while under the clock and the stress of adrenaline. Why such actions are deemed dangerous when you're relatively calm is completely ignorant.
I have no battlefield experience, never indicated I did. I was responding to a previous comment regarding the usefulness of the striker indicator on the battlefield. Street corner, range, IPSC match or the battlefield. The venue doesn't matter, the striker indicator is a waste of engineering.
The XD or any pistol for that matter will not benefit from a striker indicator. If the indicator is down the pistol either failed to fire, or the pistol isn't loaded. How is this problem solved, with the immediate action drill of TAP RACK. The position of the trigger is irrelevant. Furthermore, if you managed to load your pistol and the striker did not charge, your pistol is f*cked. Of course you'll find out after you execute a TAP RACK to no avail then change mags with still no success(if you didn't notice the complete lack of resistance in the trigger).
TDC
Xd-m
None aperantly on their way to canada any time soon. I just looked at the old XD40 today at Reliable in Vancouver BC and they said nothing is even planned to ship to canada soon so just sit back and wait is what they said. But it is a sick looking gun.
Goood luck
None aperantly on their way to canada any time soon. I just looked at the old XD40 today at Reliable in Vancouver BC and they said nothing is even planned to ship to canada soon so just sit back and wait is what they said. But it is a sick looking gun.
Goood luck
