Hi folks...i was wondering if someone could explain a few things to me. first off i have NO clue about black powder as this is something new ive decided to take up and a little intimidated by it. I have a SxS from late 1800s that i refinished and would like to shoot 20 gauge BP brass shells in it . I dont know what type of powder ( NOT USING NITRO ) example FFF or FFG whatever its called. I know there's different grades like fine and so on but not sure what to use and or how much of powder and shot in brass shells. My SxS is a 12 gauge but im going to use 20 gauge adapters as i don't like the idea of using 12 gauge in a 130 year old gun !!! Any help tips or info would be great. Thx Everyone !!!
New To Black Powder
- Thread starter Mac2017
- Start date
If your gun is in good firing condition especially if you plan on using black powder you should be able to shoot 12ga shells in it with no problem.A charge of 70 grains of fg or ffg blackpowder would be about a standard BP load .Remember though after you shoot black powder you will have to clean your gun and the brass cases with hot soapy water or a black powder solvent ,or your bores and cases will corrode if left unattended
Equal VOLUMES of shot and powder.....never by weight. Use enough card and filler wads to fill your case and a thin over-shot wad glued in place. There is lots of info available on loading BP shotshells so do a little on-line research. A 3 dram 1 1/8 oz 12 ga load ( that is what I shoot in my oldie) equates to 83 gr of powder and equal volume of shot. Most shooters would use FFg in 12 or 20 ga.
vagrantviking
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Alberta
Either 2f or 3f is what I use. Stick to cardboard and fiber wads because plastic probably won't fit properly in thin brass shells and is a royal pain to scrape out of the barrel. If you don't have a handy source buy a set of punches from Princess Auto and cut them from ceiling tiles or similar material.
If your shells take large pistol primers you can't switch to 209 primers or anything else only large pistol will fit.
The equal volume loads are certainly a good place to start. For more information look up past posts by catinthehat, mooncoon and others. This topic has been brought up a few times before.
Where are you located? There are several BP clubs in Alberta and you can learn a lot from dropping by a shoot.
If your shells take large pistol primers you can't switch to 209 primers or anything else only large pistol will fit.
The equal volume loads are certainly a good place to start. For more information look up past posts by catinthehat, mooncoon and others. This topic has been brought up a few times before.
Where are you located? There are several BP clubs in Alberta and you can learn a lot from dropping by a shoot.
All good advice so far.
There is no reason to use 20 gauge adapters in a good sound gun.
A load of 70 grains of FFg black powder and an equal volume of shot ( a trifle under an ounce) is a good mild 12 gauge load, about equivalent to a full 20 gauge loading.
I load 80 grains of FFg black powder, nitro card, 1/2 inch fibre wad, 1 1/8 ounce of #8 shot as a full black powder 12 gauge Trap load. Pressures are still mild when compared to modern smokeless Trap loads.
Fibre wads for loading black powder cartridges are readily available from Hillfolk Musket Supplies, Senlac SK, Doug and Becky Middleton. 306-228-2949, and some other gun show traders.
You should examine and know the chamber length of your black powder shotgun. Once you know that, you can also use correct length modern plastic hulls for your black powder loads too. With plastic hulls, I use them once and toss them. For shorter chambers you can cut down hulls and roll crimp them on top of an overshot wad.
I also recommend that you find a nearby black powder club to help with advice.
There is no reason to use 20 gauge adapters in a good sound gun.
A load of 70 grains of FFg black powder and an equal volume of shot ( a trifle under an ounce) is a good mild 12 gauge load, about equivalent to a full 20 gauge loading.
I load 80 grains of FFg black powder, nitro card, 1/2 inch fibre wad, 1 1/8 ounce of #8 shot as a full black powder 12 gauge Trap load. Pressures are still mild when compared to modern smokeless Trap loads.
Fibre wads for loading black powder cartridges are readily available from Hillfolk Musket Supplies, Senlac SK, Doug and Becky Middleton. 306-228-2949, and some other gun show traders.
You should examine and know the chamber length of your black powder shotgun. Once you know that, you can also use correct length modern plastic hulls for your black powder loads too. With plastic hulls, I use them once and toss them. For shorter chambers you can cut down hulls and roll crimp them on top of an overshot wad.
I also recommend that you find a nearby black powder club to help with advice.
A very good point about plastic hulls. Avoid plastic wads and try to find plastic or paper hulls that are not tapered inside. Winchester AA hulls are thicker toward the base and not as suitable as Federal Gold Medal or even better are Federal paper trap and skeet loads: you can get 2 or 3 loads out of them before they burn out. Some of the cheapo Win, Rem and Fed hulls have non-tapered cases too so search them out. I use only Fed paper for my BP loads so I can easily distinguish BP loads from smokeless...
Search out and join the Alberta Black Powder Association for more support and places to shoot your dbl with other like-minded folks. We have a website and Facebook page.
Search out and join the Alberta Black Powder Association for more support and places to shoot your dbl with other like-minded folks. We have a website and Facebook page.
You'll find that black powder loads are more gentle on both the gun and your shoulder than you're used to with smokeless loads. And with a light 12Ga load it'll be fine if it's been checked and approved for any actual shooting at all.
A couple of years ago I bought some of the Magtech brass cases for my 12Ga to use in my black powder cowboy action shooting. I found a number of recipes for working in the old "drams" for measure. And since I happened to have gotten a dram measure intended for shotgun use in a box of goodies I went that way. For 12Ga you can run up to 3 drams. But I chose to go with a slightly lighter 2 3/4 drams of ffg. That works out to around 75 grains (by volume) which also when matched with the #8 shot I've got was around 1 1/8 oz. If you
But I gotta say that these take down the steel fallers we use with some pretty good gusto! If you're just playing around and knocking around a few bits of steel or wood or punching paper you could lighten things up to 2 1/2 drams of ffg and run the roughly 1oz of shot and end up with a pretty light load on your shoulder but which would still punch whatever you're aiming at fairly hard.
Because of the way black powder has a softer kick I would not bother with the 20Ga adapter either. If the gun has been checked and approved for ANY sort of actual use it should be fine with a 2 1/2 dram (68 grains by volume) load of powder and the same volume of lead shot. That works out to 1oz of lead.
Note that a lighter load like the 2 1/2 dram behind 1oz shot loads will leave you with a good 1/2" of unused casing. Don't mind that though. Or use two cushion wads if you want.
Since you're new to BP a note on this whole "by volume" thing. There really is no such volume measure as "grains". But because black powder has been around for so long and was always quite consistent for density over all those centuries of making the stuff folks started working with volume equivalents and it stuck. So don't be surprised if you use a black powder measure and when you dump a 60 grain volume load onto your scale it ends up being darn close to 60 grains by weight. It's supposed to do that. It's easier to carry a volume measure in the field than it is a scale so that's another reason why it ended up this way.
The actual size grade isn't cast in stone. There's slight variations in the burn characteristics but you'll be fine if you use ffg or fg for 12Ga loads. Hell, you could use fffg as well and it wouldn't cause any major issues. Just burn a little differently. Using the "wrong" grades mostly just ends up causing a little more fouling in the bore.
You don't need the Magtech cases either. But if you do buy them they only take large pistol or large rifle primers. The cases would require modifying to take 209's if that is possible. I shot 500 plastic hull reloads done by another cowboy shooter for us BP types before I started using the Magtech stuff. These were loaded in once used smokeless hulls. But due to the heat he mentioned that the plastic hulls were a one time only deal for BP. But they do work.
A couple of years ago I bought some of the Magtech brass cases for my 12Ga to use in my black powder cowboy action shooting. I found a number of recipes for working in the old "drams" for measure. And since I happened to have gotten a dram measure intended for shotgun use in a box of goodies I went that way. For 12Ga you can run up to 3 drams. But I chose to go with a slightly lighter 2 3/4 drams of ffg. That works out to around 75 grains (by volume) which also when matched with the #8 shot I've got was around 1 1/8 oz. If you
But I gotta say that these take down the steel fallers we use with some pretty good gusto! If you're just playing around and knocking around a few bits of steel or wood or punching paper you could lighten things up to 2 1/2 drams of ffg and run the roughly 1oz of shot and end up with a pretty light load on your shoulder but which would still punch whatever you're aiming at fairly hard.
Because of the way black powder has a softer kick I would not bother with the 20Ga adapter either. If the gun has been checked and approved for ANY sort of actual use it should be fine with a 2 1/2 dram (68 grains by volume) load of powder and the same volume of lead shot. That works out to 1oz of lead.
Note that a lighter load like the 2 1/2 dram behind 1oz shot loads will leave you with a good 1/2" of unused casing. Don't mind that though. Or use two cushion wads if you want.
Since you're new to BP a note on this whole "by volume" thing. There really is no such volume measure as "grains". But because black powder has been around for so long and was always quite consistent for density over all those centuries of making the stuff folks started working with volume equivalents and it stuck. So don't be surprised if you use a black powder measure and when you dump a 60 grain volume load onto your scale it ends up being darn close to 60 grains by weight. It's supposed to do that. It's easier to carry a volume measure in the field than it is a scale so that's another reason why it ended up this way.
The actual size grade isn't cast in stone. There's slight variations in the burn characteristics but you'll be fine if you use ffg or fg for 12Ga loads. Hell, you could use fffg as well and it wouldn't cause any major issues. Just burn a little differently. Using the "wrong" grades mostly just ends up causing a little more fouling in the bore.
You don't need the Magtech cases either. But if you do buy them they only take large pistol or large rifle primers. The cases would require modifying to take 209's if that is possible. I shot 500 plastic hull reloads done by another cowboy shooter for us BP types before I started using the Magtech stuff. These were loaded in once used smokeless hulls. But due to the heat he mentioned that the plastic hulls were a one time only deal for BP. But they do work.
While black powder pressures are lower than smokeless in equivalent velocity loads, black powder recoil in similar loads, is in fact, greater than with smokeless.
Recoil energy is proportional to the weight of the ejecta out of the bore and the charge weight of black powder is substantially more than smokeless powder in equivalent velocity loads. As a proportion of total weight of ejecta, this greater weight of powder is a small percentage, but don't go to black powder loads expecting lower recoil energy than equivalent smokeless loads.
One needs to give a thought to the condition of the fragile head and wrist of a stock on a vintage gun when using full charge black powder loads.
Recoil energy is proportional to the weight of the ejecta out of the bore and the charge weight of black powder is substantially more than smokeless powder in equivalent velocity loads. As a proportion of total weight of ejecta, this greater weight of powder is a small percentage, but don't go to black powder loads expecting lower recoil energy than equivalent smokeless loads.
One needs to give a thought to the condition of the fragile head and wrist of a stock on a vintage gun when using full charge black powder loads.
Thanks all AMAZING freaking info helped me out TONS...i am going to stick with the brass shells only though as i think they will be best suited for me plus i want this to be as vintage as possible. It will be for plinking around but mostly grouse and partridge...maybe even the odd duck if its strong enough which id imagine it is as they are similar sized birds. I found in the past 12 gauge was just a tad to strong for smaller game even with finer shot. I might be just sticking with a size 6 shot I think would be ideal as i haven't had any luck with 7 1/2. Geese I found and loved the T shot worked great....except NOTHING will ever beat the old Winchester Super X shells from the 1970's. My first goose i ever shot was in September 2000 from about 130 feet straight up as it flew over and u could hear the freaking smack when that thing got hit. Dropped it stone dead straight down. The 2 steel shots after did nothing. The 3" Super X was awesome. My neighbor weighed it and it was 11 1/2 pounds AFTER it was plucked and gutted. Ive got a pic of it still to this day.
