New WWII movie "The forgotten soldier"

- I recall seeing a documentary about the Battle of Ortona which claimed to have been the most intense battle in WWII. :confused:

Yup LOL

Such is the historical accuracy of Western media. The combined killed in action of U.S. and British/Commonwealth soldiers on the European Western front was somewhere around 250,000. The number of killed in action for the Soviet Red Army was somewhere around 8,500,000. Around 30 million had been conscripted to the Red Army between 1942 and 1945, which is more than the entire population of Canada at present. The Soviets were on their way to defeating Germany on their own. Truly, the real long term result of the D-Day and West Front was more to ensure a more Easterly border between Democratic West and Communist East at the end of WW2. This does not take away from the heroism and impact of all us Western allies did during WW2, but our contribution should be seen in context alongside what the Soviets did.

It's a product of the Cold War that the West was never taught about where the most important and most intense fighting of WW2 occurred.
 
Yup LOL

Such is the historical accuracy of Western media. The combined killed in action of U.S. and British/Commonwealth soldiers on the European Western front was somewhere around 250,000. The number of killed in action for the Soviet Red Army was somewhere around 8,500,000. Around 30 million had been conscripted to the Red Army between 1942 and 1945, which is more than the entire population of Canada at present. The Soviets were on their way to defeating Germany on their own. Truly, the real long term result of the D-Day and West Front was more to ensure a more Easterly border between Democratic West and Communist East at the end of WW2. This does not take away from the heroism and impact of all us Western allies did during WW2, but our contribution should be seen in context alongside what the Soviets did.

It's a product of the Cold War that the West was never taught about where the most important and most intense fighting of WW2 occurred.

For me, the most eye-opening thing I learned about WW2 was when I first learned about the casuality per country. Indeed, the "western world" stories and movies gave me quite a false impression. Here's a graph in wikipedia; not sure about accuracy but that's the one I found. puts things in perspective!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_War_II_Casualties2.svg
 
Yup LOL

Such is the historical accuracy of Western media. The combined killed in action of U.S. and British/Commonwealth soldiers on the European Western front was somewhere around 250,000. The number of killed in action for the Soviet Red Army was somewhere around 8,500,000. Around 30 million had been conscripted to the Red Army between 1942 and 1945, which is more than the entire population of Canada at present. The Soviets were on their way to defeating Germany on their own. Truly, the real long term result of the D-Day and West Front was more to ensure a more Easterly border between Democratic West and Communist East at the end of WW2. This does not take away from the heroism and impact of all us Western allies did during WW2, but our contribution should be seen in context alongside what the Soviets did.

It's a product of the Cold War that the West was never taught about where the most important and most intense fighting of WW2 occurred.


What about all the equipment the west supplied the Soviets ? And if the west wasn't fitting the Germans do you think Russia would still have won
Just my 2 cents
 
For me, the most eye-opening thing I learned about WW2 was when I first learned about the casuality per country. Indeed, the "western world" stories and movies gave me quite a false impression. Here's a graph in wikipedia; not sure about accuracy but that's the one I found. puts things in perspective!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:World_War_II_Casualties2.svg

Is Canada included under the United Kingdom on this graph, or do we not even rate?

SW
 
What about all the equipment the west supplied the Soviets ? And if the west wasn't fitting the Germans do you think Russia would still have won
Just my 2 cents

The equipment, (lend lease) that the West supplied to the Russians was more to appease Stalin who wanted a second front opened in the West. The Russians were losing hundreds of thousands of men a month, or even week sometimes while for several years, the Western Allies were just building up and training in England and playing in the Sandbox with Rommel.

The Lend Lease program was to give Stalin the sense that the West was doing something at the same time as the West not being willing to incur the same manpower losses as the Soviets.

By all accounts, historical and contemporary, the Soviets hated the Western equipment. The ammunition for the weapons was hard or impossible to find once the supply lines were in danger, the Red Army soldier preferred anything that fired the 7.62 x 54R because it was easy to come across. American and British Ammunition was virtually impossible to find and once the box of it that came with the rifle was gone, there was no more.

Western Lend Lease vehicles were unfamiliar to the Soviets, compicated and broke down a lot in the Russian terrain ran terribly in winter, and there were no replacement parts around at all. The typical Red Army soldier wanted nothing to do with the Western equipment. Stalin was appeased, but barely. He still demanded reapeatedly that the West open a second front.

Then, once the Soviets recovered their manufacturing capability by moving their factories East in to the Urals, the production ramped up and any Western equipment was a strange novelty the soldiers didn't want to risk their lives using.

After the Summer of 1943, the Soviets were outproducing the West in artillery, aircraft and tanks by orders of magnitude. This is where the Western help came in handy, raw metals were used by Soviet factories, however the Russians had their own supplies, and should the Western metals not be available, would have been able to maintain production, though not as fast. The help from the west was a tradeoff, they give to the Russians and the Russians bore the brunt of the human casualties. The West knew that they could not manage to fight the Germans with the same rates of loss as the Russians...they'd have had to sue for peace by 1943 by public pressure or sheer attrition had they done so. The Soviets on the other hand could keep going for years, and the Germans were quickly falling short on manpower.

If the West had never landed in Normandy, nor helped the Soviets, the Red Army would still have eventually overan Berlin and likely liberated France themselves. This is what the West was fearful of. In fact, in the last weeks of the war, with the Western Allies knowing that Germany was deafeated, the race was less about the Germans and more about seizing territory and blocking the Soviets from taking control over it. Think Denmark, the West left the Soviets to capture the meatgrinder of Berlin knowing they had an agreement for a division of the city post war already, and instead decided to sidetrack and block the Russians from moving into the Nordic nations. They also focussed on Italy and finishing off the German resistance there while the Russians were busy in Germany. If you think further afield, once the Soviets declared war on Japan, the US was also worried that the post war division of Japan would include a Soviet section, and this played into the decision to use the nuclear bomb on Hiroshima.

I think to this day, the West completely underestimates the power of the Red Army in 1945. I also think that can be blamed almost all on Hollywood and American history book publishers (media).
 
Slyder: Well, um, no... The Soviets would have NEVER won the war without lend-lease equipment. I notice they never refused a shipment, no matter how 'poor' they (supposedly) thought it was. And the decision to drop the atomic bomb(s) on Japan was based on saving lives (American and Japanese). Revisionist history is a fun read just for the laughs.
 
If DDAY Never existed and there was never a western front at all...

I personally think the Germans would have been able to hold the russian army to a stalemate and it would have become so horrible and drawn out that both sides would have eventually come to a treaty of sorts.

Even outnumbered 20 or even 50-1 at times nearing the end of the war, the german air force and panzer force never had a less that 1-1 kill ratio vs the soviets.

Adding that substantial amount of men and material from all western and south side fronts to the east would have changed the face of that war considerably IMO.

100 german tanks made a difference, as that was a huge number to them. Having an extra 100 tanks could actually WIN a battle for the Germans.

1000 tanks was nothing to the russians, they lost 800 tanks? Theyll make 1000 more. 1000 tanks didn't really affect the russian machines abilities either way.

Its a relative comparison, and the millions on the western front would have made a large contribution.

Mind you this is speculative, as no DDAY could mean either simply no DDAY, or Operation Sealion success, or Some form of treaty? In this speculation, how much of the German forces would be available from garrison, defensive duties from teh west would have been able to be thrown east?



German vs. Soviet AFV losses - 1941-45.
Period: Ratio: Period: Ratio:
06/41-02/42 1:5.0 12/43-06/44 1:1.4
03/42-05/42 1:6.6 07/44 1:4.0
06/42-10/42 1:7.9 08/44 1:2.0
11/42-03/43 1:1.3 09/44 1:1.0
04/43-08/43 1:5.7 10/43-11/44 1:1.3
09/43-11/43 1:2.5 - -
 
After WW2 the only Soviet acknowledgement of Lend Lease was when Stalin sent Studebaker Company a 'Thank you book' commemerating the company for all the trucks they had sent. The book is in some big name U.S. automotive museum now - can't recall where. Apparently the USSR loved these trucks, and even copied them after WW2. I think Studebaker sent over something like 200,000 trucks (staggering - isn't it?).

An excerpt from a lend lease article:
Roosevelt’s instinctive generosity and vision in 1941 must be recognised when he decided to throw his country’s industrial might into supporting the Soviet Union immediately after the Nazi invasion. The letters in My Dear Mr Stalin, a collection of the correspondence between the two, remind us of the staggering scale of US aid. In October 1942, at the height of the Battle of Stalingrad, Stalin provided a shopping list for delivery each month: 500 fighter planes (he understandably rejected the American Kitty Hawk as obsolete and demanded the newer Airacobra); 8,000 to 10,000 trucks; 5,000 tons of aluminium; and 5,000 tons of explosives. “In addition to this,” Stalin continued, the USSR needed “two million tons of grain” over 12 months as well as “fats, food concentrates and canned meat”. Machine tools, smelters, even refineries were to be shipped.

The great irony, unacknowledged by Russian historians even today, is that had it not been for the hundreds of thousands of Dodge and Studebaker trucks, the Red Army would never have reached Berlin before the Americans
.

Also, supposedly the US supplied 3 million pairs of winter boots, aviation fuel for the Red Air Force (as they did not have the capacity to produce large quantities high octane fuel like the US), and millions of cans of food.

A quote from General Zhukov:
Quoting Zhukov:
"Speaking about our readiness for war from the point of view of the economy and
economics, one cannot be silent about such a factor as the subsequent help from
the Allies. First of all, certainly, from the American side, because in that
respect the English helped us minimally. In an analysis of all facets of the
war, one must not leave this out of one's reckoning. We would have been in a
serious condition without American gunpowder, and could not have turned out the
quantity of ammunition which we needed. Without American `Studebekkers' [sic],
we could have dragged our artillery nowhere. Yes, in general, to a considerable
degree they provided ourfront transport. The output of special steel, necessary
for the most diverse necessities of war, were also connected to a series of
American deliveries."

Moreover, Zhukov underscored that `we entered war while still continuing to be a
backward country in an industrial sense in comparison with Germany. Simonov's
truthful recounting of these meetings with Zhukov, which took place in 1965 and
1966, are corraborated by the utterances of G. Zhukov, recorded as a result of
eavesdropping by security organs in 1963:
"It is now said that the Allies never helped us . . . However, one cannot deny
that the Americans gave us so much material, without which we could not have
formed our reserves and ***could not have continued the war*** . . . we had no
explosives and powder. There was none to equip rifle bullets. The Americans
actually came to our assistance with powder and explosives. And how much sheet
steel did they give us. We really could not have quickly put right our
production of tanks if the Americans had not helped with steel. And today it
seems as though we had all this ourselves in abundance."





I don't know how accurate these figures are:
80% of all canned meat.
92% of all railroad locomotives, rolling stock and rails.
57% of all aviation fuel.
53% of all explosives.
74% of all truck transport.
88% of all radio equipment.
53% of all copper.
56% of all aluminum.
60+% of all automotive fuel.
74% of all vehicle tires.
12% of all armored vehicles.
14% of all combat aircraft.
The list includes a high percentage of the high grade steel, communications
cable, canned foods of all types, medical supplies, and virtually every modern
machine tool used by Soviet industry. Not to mention the "know-how required to
use and maintain this equipment

Overall, because of differing ideologies, Lend Lease seems to have been swept under the rug by both Stalin and the Allies after WW2.
 
Last edited:
and what would have happened if the AA guns defending german cities from strategic bombing could have been deployed on the eastern front? remember that the flak 88 made a tremendous anti-tank gun as well.

it is fantasy to think that the soviet union could have taken berlin if the war was just germany vs the soviet union.
 
****Spoiler Alert!*****










How much you want to bet that over half the movie is about the girl he meets 2/3's of the way through the book and then never sees again.

If Hollywood is involved, it's probably a sure thing.

That would be Paula. Yes, lots of room for H'wood tear jerker scenes as well as his meeting his Maman upon returning "home".
 
Presently reading The Cross Of Iron by Willi Heinrich. Picked up the book at the flea market for 2 bucks, a rare lucky find. A realistic story of a trapped mighty army in death throes during retreat. Any Sven Hassel books are worth reading, when found too. Many Eastern Front books out there fact/fiction, but only a few movies.
 
Presently reading The Cross Of Iron by Willi Heinrich. Picked up the book at the flea market for 2 bucks, a rare lucky find. A realistic story of a trapped mighty army in death throes during retreat. Any Sven Hassel books are worth reading, when found too. Many Eastern Front books out there fact/fiction, but only a few movies.

I'm presuming you've seen the 1978 movie with James Coburn as "Sgt Steiner"?


The follow up book to Cross of Iron is "Crack of Doom".
 
I am a military book collector with over 1000 titles and consider this book to be the best East-front first hand account book of them all.Most WW11 histories were written by officers who had little "mud and blood" experience and books like this are rare.Other must-reads are Rudel's 'Stuka Pilot' and Leon Degrelle's books.
 
Last edited:
Hope the film is faithful to the book. It would be good for people to know more of the carnage and sacrifice on the eastern front.

Finding a column of abandoned trucks emblasoned with a white star and the words "made in USA" convinced him that (1) the West was assisting Stalin with materiel and (2) the Soviets would eventually defeat the Germans.

Based on his personal accounts that event was the culminating factor in my father's decision to leave two years of partisan fighting in Galicia and Volyn' (western Ukraine, '42-'44) and make his way to the West before the war wrapped up.
 
Back
Top Bottom