No PRECSION BUILDS for 2013 allowed in canada

J

Jefferson

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This thread will no doubt ruffle some feathers but it is time to discuss it in a rational manner. I expect to close this thread or the moderators within a week. Not that it is controversial but that either the next posts or the so called FAVORITES on this site will chim in and complain that I am being too harsh for their poor egos or it is making their businesses suffer unduly. (place ads here for tears away products)

Let us be real honest, most dealers are not guaranteeing a date for delivery of a CUSTOM BUILD COMPONENTS

I understand and know it is hard to get the stuff here in a timely manner and customs can be difficult at times.

BUT I think there are a number of folks, some dealers and others who either

A. do not order when they say they have ordered
B. do not order your specific item (exact specs on an action or stock)
C. have NO CREDIT or not enough credit to get the item made and shipped in a timely manner
D. have no intention on ordering your specific (say A5 stock or insert custom item here) as they will just get some up here and let you choose from whatever they happen to recieve.
E. take 100 % or large deposits to bind you in waiting a year or more
F. do not respond to your requests for updates, try to get you to buy what ever they have in stock and cannot sell to others,
G. make up excuses about how they keep checking for you when they sit back and have coffee and go on the internet to have their daily fun
H. sound all too familiar

so my point here is there should be a form developed or a one page contract for specialty parts with a good understaning of the obligations and responsibilities of both parties and then less problems would develope.

What I am hoping is that folks will try to design clauses or EXPRESS their problems so we can draft an agreement so both parties will be happy


please re-read the above, the intent of this post is tho help guys build their precision rifle in a timely manner and not be jacked around by suppliers or fly be night operations from time to time,

THIS DOES NOT INCLUDE THE VENDORS WHO PROPERLY order, pay for and bring in stuff (and does not bring up old problems in the past)

so once again for the somewhat febble minded who just like to blast the OP, let us try to help when new guys or old guys try to build their dream gun,


remember our favorite stockmaker was sold ot the USA and it is difficult to get in parts,


so solutions anyone or just the usual bit&&ing (you get the picture)


Jefferson (brought in over 150K in bullets, 50 barrels, 35 actions, and so on over the years, also designed 2 stocks that are currently being made and sold around the world so this is not my first attempt into the business of providing parts or building guns)


so is the discussion going to try to solve an issue or help with customer wishes or does this thread just go downhill as the participants are not mature enough to discuss the situation ?????? at least let us try
 
From what I have seen I though a year wait was the normal for building a custom rifle. I havent dealt with building a gun yet so I have no idea. But Im tagging this to see how long it stays up and running.
 
Simple solution , order from upstanding customer oriented business' . The wait is the wait no matter what yes it sucks but is what it is . Any of your abc scenarios don't sound like upstanding business' to me so I wouldn't order from them a little research on who is good to deal with isn't that hard to do..

Having any dealer sign a form that guarantees they will have your item by a certain time is just ridiculous . The manufactures can only produce so much and I'm sure they all have tones or contracts and orders to fill before they get to yours
 
While I can't relate on the custom rifle side of this, as I have never ordered one, I understand where the OP is coming from.
I know it happens a lot in Canada with powersport items. I order parts, dealer says yeah I'll order em, should be here in 2 weeks or so. I need a 50% deposit. You give hime deposit. He proceeds to sit on your order, until he has enough orders coming from the same place to make shipping worth while for him. So 2 months later your junk shows up. You get charged 30$ for shipping. Which you and I both know he charged the other 10 people for that had parts come from the same supplier. So you and 10 other people got billed 30$ for shipping on a box that cost maybe 100$ to ship.
Meanwhile because you've put a 50% deposit on the item you sat around and waited, instead of finding someone else to get the parts in a timely manner.
Sorry, slightly off topic.
I mean hey, if someone says its gonna be a year for your rifle to get done. Well its gonna be a year. However it better not be 18 months, without an explanation, and I shouldn't have to chase you down to get one. Your the one with a bunch of my money.
I generally have no problem paying for a product, even paying a little more than its probably worth.... IF and its a big if, its exactly what I ordered, not the next closest thing, and it arrives in a reasonable time frame.
I understand, especially with barrel and probably action manufacturers, they have very long lead times on products. As a smith, you have absolutely zero control over that, and I, the customer understand that completely.
Once again I haven't dealt with any custom guns yet, but to me it all comes down to communication. Tell me what the problem is, tell me what the realistic time line is, tell me if you can't get a product. Before I give you my money. If something comes up after you have my money, I would expect a phone call or an email, as soon as the problem arises.
And if you, the smith, dealer, or whoever makes a mistake. Tell me you f*&ked up. I'll take a "hey dude, I forgot to order that part" over "Oh..... yeah... its back ordered"

End of partially off topic rant.
 
I know what your saying but it's a little more complicated than drafting up an agreement. The fly by nighters now have technology on their side in the form of flashy good looking professional websites, one needs to know nothing about guns to build a good website. This can be done by guys that are working out of their mom's basement.

One of the best ways we can combat this is to get the information out quickly to others in order to starve these hacks out of buisness. I would also encourage the veteran members to come forward and write small articles now and then on what to expect with a build, the do's and dont's that they have learned along the road.
 
cdn shooter said:
I know what your saying but it's a little more complicated than drafting up an agreement. The fly by nighters now have technology on their side in the form of flashy good looking professional websites, one needs to know nothing about guns to build a good website. This can be done by guys that are working out of their mom's basement.

One of the best ways we can combat this is to get the information out quickly to others in order to starve these hacks out of business I would also encourage the veteran members to come forward and write small articles now and then on what to expect with a build, the do's and dont's that they have learned along the road.
Click to expand...

Firstly I understand and endorse what the OP is trying to do. Secondly ( and hence the quote ) I believe Cdn shooter to be 100% correct in what he says. Shining a light on those that do sub par work is essential. I always point out that I am fussy about certain things and that I look forward to being in a position to write a good review of the work done/product supplied - the implication is that I shall have no hesitation whatsoever in pointing out poor quality and workmanship.
 
The issue that most are forgetting about, is what custome means. How I am supposed to stock exactly what you want, when I don't know what that is? What action do you want? I can't stock them all. What colours do you want on your A5 stock? Do you even want an A5? What barrel length and contour do you want? What barrel manufacturer?
Once I have all of these components, the wait for you to get your rifle is 4 to 6 weeks. That's it. The rest of the time is waiting for components to get here. That's it. I ordered an A5 from McMillan in November. I don't expect it until March. I did manage to find a barrel in country, but it will need to be contoured. An action? If you have your heart absoluteley set on one particular brand, you may wait as long, if not longer than the stock. A custom rifle is just that, custom. You get to decide what you want. If your builders are telling you that there are long lead times, chances are it is for components.
I confirm every parts order with a customer, and comunicate every delay, and/or shipping update. This is discussed before an agreement takes place to build the rifle. I'm also a very small outfit, and don't do large volumes of work. I can afford to only build one rilfe at a time. This too, is discussed prior to any build.

Customers want comunication. Customers want updates on progress. They want to know that the money they gave their builder is going towards their job, and nothing else.

If your builder doesn't discuss this with you, or explain what their policies are regarding component orders and possible delays, then look at other builders that do.

No one should have to wait for any reasonable amout of time without knowing exactly what it happening with their build. And it's easy to define reasonable, because this should be discussed as well.

R.
 
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the easiest way to solve this problem is start buying locally; canadian made.
although canada is a small market, a ton of parts come in from the us every year.
there are world class barrel makers here in canada, yet to get the glory of owning something 'exotic' that your peers may have, people order parts from out of country to 'look' as good as everyone else.
maybe if some more people would support our canadian economy, more makers would step up to meet demand.
or does every one feel that there are no canadians smart or good enough to keep up with an american? lee
 
duceman said:
the easiest way to solve this problem is start buying locally; canadian made.
although canada is a small market, a ton of parts come in from the us every year.
there are world class barrel makers here in canada, yet to get the glory of owning something 'exotic' that your peers may have, people order parts from out of country to 'look' as good as everyone else.
maybe if some more people would support our canadian economy, more makers would step up to meet demand.
or does every one feel that there are no canadians smart or good enough to keep up with an american? lee
Click to expand...

I think the problem with canadian manufacturers is lack of advertising. I know about the american barrel makers because they make the product known, they make the processes they use in manufacturing known. That said, I'm sure if a person put the effort in, one could probably find info on our canadian manufacturers.

Maybe should go in another thread but what the hell, I'll ask anyway. If I decided to make my next custom 100% home grown, what are my options?
 
Barrel Makers...there are several...
Action makers, not so much...one for sure.
Bottom metal...two for sure.
Stock manufactureres...only one I can think of.
Ring and base manufacturers...two for sure.
Optics...kind of one.

R.
 
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I agree fully. Myself and two other family members have waited 2 to 3 years for 4 different custom builds with three different smiths. One was outright nasty to deal with not willing to turn over property paid for after waiting almost 2 years with no activity on the build. Not to say all are like this I have had some positive experiences in both the east and west. I think most should take some lessons from European custom builds. In 95 days from order date I can have a custom build landed in Canada for a fullbore competition rifle including test targets I review and return acceptance of accuracy of the two different barrels. I receive updates every 30 days if on schedule including the possibility of early shipment. Customer service, quality work and pride in the product that most business people should try to achieve.
 
What exactly is the point of this thread? If it's to piss & moan about certain "companies" that aren't serious about conducting business then please out them here for the benefit of the membership. How can things change if there's no attempt to warn fellow shooters? If you're not willing to name names then you're part of the problem and not part of the solution. If this situation is as bad and unjust as some including the OP has suggested, then either put up or shut up.
 
What I see lays at the root of all of this is.... upfront honesty and an understanding between the smith and the customer. As a customer YOU need to ask questions about time frames if this is important to you. The builder will need to be honest and give you timeframes for the work IF he/she is able to. These need to be honest. From there, YOU need to make the assessment if it meets your needs.


Also as a customer if you are having your smith order parts across borders or having parts made..... expect delays! What USA and CDN customs do to hold up your orders is out of the control of your smith... I understand this and don't hold anyone accountable for the delay.

What I have done in the past. Start with tiny projects... a cerakote job. Ask the time frame and all other aspects of the job. See if it happens how they say. Move up.... Bedding and paint.... yup they were bang on for their time estimate, in fact a little early! Next up, lets see if having an action CNC machine and a barrel spun on is accurate.... We shall see.


I guess there is a lot to be said about the customer. If someone tells me my action will be done in 2-3 months... I will assume the worst and unforseen delays and expect it in 5 months.
Too much power has been shifted to the customer in this day and age (spoken from a customer), it is down right sickening how much we can get away with and the expectation on the business.
 
I understand the OP's issues but realistically;
Never renovate a house...
your wanting a custom item without any undue stress or wait; ain't going to happen.
Not in homes, cars, bikes and especially not guns.

Think about the market your in;
-highly specialized training required.
-dependant on Foreign supply.
-massive red tape from multiple governments.
-A demand that currently far exceeds supply.
-Expensive inventory.
-low profit margines on that inventory.
-difficulty on getting financial and insurance backing.
-exceeding high expections of internet savvy costomers who have no problem trashing your name/reputation and are as loyale as a hooker...


My 2 cents;
-anyone with the training and capital to do this could make more money doing other things.
-Fly by nighters are everywhere- it isn't limited to guns.
-Get to know your shooting community, get off the damn computer and go out to some shooting events and get to know who uses what.
-When you are on the computer, keep track of the gossip and weigh your options.
-even if you had some formal binding contract how are you going to enforce it, and at what cost?
-end of the day; buyer beware
-who pays; you
-Never navigate in unknown waters.

But I'm rooting for the OP.
More people would spend more money if it was easier and quicker.
 
You can't change supply and demand with a petition.

If you feel you are getting treated improperly go to some of our sponsors , they WILL give you the skinny on availability.

People are willing to wait on a 80K vehicle that is ordered or wait for a new home to be built.
 
That not very surprise since you relying on other to supplies part for build, there are Canadian manufacture in Canada, why look some where else.
 
Ballsy thread Jefferson. I know exactly where you're coming from. All I ask for is to be kept in the loop with what's happening with my order. Cut the bs is all I ask for. I can wait for a year if that's what it takes but being strung along drives me crazy.
 
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