No rifle can outshoot the ammo - what does it take to do okay at 100

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grauhanen

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What does it take to do okay at 100 yards? There are three obvious parts to the equation. These are a good rifle, good conditions (preferably no wind whatsoever), and good ammo.

Of those three ingredients, the first two should be usually straightforward. There are many good rifles out there, new and used. Good conditions with no wind is a matter of patience for when to shoot or changing locations to where it's not a problem. It's either that or it's necessary to learn to use wind flags effectively.

The hardest part of the three to come by is good ammo. It's not that match ammo can be expensive (which it is) or that it's sometimes unavailable (which it also is). The problem is that it's not simply matter of being able to buy the ammo.

When it comes to ammo, one of the most important things to appreciate is that it's NOT "find the brand of ammo your rifle likes". To be sure some makes of ammo usually shoot better than others. That is to say, SK ammos, for example, usually perform better than ammos made in North America. The same is true for Eley's least expensive standard velocity ammos, as well as those of RWS.

Generally speaking, on average, the more expensive the variety of ammos will perform even better. For example Lapua Center X is often better performing than most SK ammos. The same is true of Eley Team compared to Eley Target or Eley Club.

But it's not a matter of the more that's spent the better the accuracy. It simply doesn't work that way.

Not all expensive ammo will shoot well in a particular rifle. To use an example, not all Lapua Center X will shoot the same. In fact, not all Center X will shoot well. The same is true for even more expensive ammo like Lapua Midas + and Eley Tenex. In short, not all CX, Midas +, or Tenex is the same.

I'll illustrate this in the next post.
 
Before continuing with examples to illustrate what I'm getting at, a few words about "lots" may be appropriate for newer shooters. All .22LR match ammo is made in batches called lots. Not all lots will perform similarly in the same rifle. That is to say, while two lots of one variety, say Center X, may shoot alike, another lot of the same variety (CX) may shoot very differently.

Yesterday I shot three different lots of Center X at 100 yards. I also shot two lots of SK Rifle Match and SK Standard Plus.

The first three targets of nine all together were all with one lot of CX. The nine ten shot groups averaged 0.981".




Continued in the next post.
 
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I shot two targets with another lot of the same variety of ammo, Center X. There were eight ten shot groups and they averaged 2.579", more than double the lot shown in the previous post.



The third lot of Center X was better than the one above. I shot one target with four ten shot groups. They averaged 1.430". This was a lot that has never given me a sub-one inch group average with the rifle I was using.

 
It seems clear that the three different lots of Center X I used yesterday don't shoot equally. The results shown first above are obviously the best of the three. Conditions remained reasonably constant while I shot these targets, with some wind in the form of switchy breezes that easily changed directions, subsided and made themselves noticeable again with the wind flags.

What's important to note is that even with the good rifle I was using, some of the Center X performed surprisingly poorly. If I was expecting it to perform well simply because of the rifle I was shooting, I would have been sorely disappointed. The rifle is good, but no rifle will outshoot the ammo it's given.

To illustrate this with a couple more examples, consider the results with SK Rifle Match and SK Standard Plus I shot two targets with SK RM, each with a different lot. On the left a four group average of 1.964" and next to it a four group average of 3.012". The SK +, on the right, had a four group average of 3.827". The SK + performed so irregularly that I had to raise the POI by about 1.5" on the bottom two bulls so that all the bullet holes might be on paper.

 
What to make of all this?

It's never "find the brand of ammo your rifle likes". That would be too easy, and besides it doesn't work that way.

The key is to find the lot(s) of ammo that perform well in your rifle. Not all lots of a particular variety, even more expensive ammo than shown here, will necessarily perform similarly.

No matter how good it is, no matter who built it, no rifle can outshoot the ammo it's given. This is true at 50 yards, but it's very evident at 100, where it's still possible to shoot for groups that are unaffected by wind. Great ammo is necessary for great results, especially as distance increases.

If you have a good rifle and aren't getting the results that it should be capable of producing, there's a good chance the shortcoming is the ammo. Inconsistent or poorly shooting ammo produce very ugly looking results at 100 yards.

How to find the most appropriate ammo? It's not necessarily what shoots well in someone else's rifle because the same lot may not perform the same in different rifles. The best way is to test different lots of quality ammo and to test as much of it as you can. A few groups is never enough. Furthermore, it's a good idea to test in the best conditions possible. The problem is that too often there aren't many different lots of a particular variety to test. As a result, testing is usually best timed to occur very soon after an ammo dealer gets his ammo order, but unfortunately this doesn't always occur at a time that's convenient. For example, when I was able to test last year, the weather had turned quite cool and the wind was not cooperative for weeks at a time. I couldn't be absolutely confident of my testing results.
 
Hi Grauhanen. I concur with everything you said.

And to make matters worse, I find in every lot of the ammo grades below the best, and in just about every 50-round box of that lot and any lot, there are crazy fliers that do not correspond in any way to the free recoil of the rifle using a 2 oz trigger, and where the wind was in total lull. We all see these strange bullets drop like a stone into the 9, 8 or 7 ring for no reason. It is quite common in our score matches (in fact it happens every match) where someone is on track to shoot a perfect 250 score with well over half being X's, only to have one bad round drop into the 8 or 9, resulting in a 249 or 248 and a loss.

I and my buddies at the range are using various lots of SK, Lapua and Eley, but not the X-Act and not the Tenex. From what I have read, the Eley Match and Team are all made on the Tenex production line, but graded and culled to 2nd (Match) and 3rd (Team). I suspect the SK are the lesser graded and culled from the Lapua production runs, as the head stamps are the same, and the ballistic charts show the same numbers. E.g. the Lapua Polar Biathlon has the same ballistics numbers listed as the SK Biathlon Sport. Maybe at our range it is because we are all using the lesser grades of "match" ammo that we inevitably get the open groups and crazy fliers in one match, but shoot a perfect score and tight groups in the next match with the same lot - it is the "rejects" from the culling from the premium grade that are contaminating the otherwise good ammo in the box. In some matches you luck out without the looser rounds in your box of 50, but in other matches you get some looser rounds in the box that wreck the group or score. And as you have shown, some lots are plagued with looser rounds that should have been boxed in the lowest grade the company sells, but somehow made it into the match training grades. All speculation (hypothesis) of course, I have no hard core experiments.

I cannot afford to buy the Tenex and X-Act. Maybe one day I will make the pilgrimage to the Eley testing range in Alberta and buy a case of the best Tenex lot my rifle shot, and save those precious rounds only for matches. But that's alot of money!

Meanwhile with my lesser grades of ammo, I am going full cleaning regimen with VFG felts and Carb-Out after every 100 rounds or so, to attack that carbon ring in hopes that may reduce the fliers.
 
Many have bought a box of match ammo and got great results.
Then buy a brick and it is not the same. My bet is the lot numbers did not match.
The same applies to the sample lots. These are tail ends of lots that a case of a particular lot will never be available again.
The answer is in having a relationship with your dealer whereby he will supply boxes of different lot numbers that he is able to hold case(s) of.
Given a week to receive the shipment and a week to find a window suitable for testing, your order should be back within 17 days.
Anything beyond that might be unreasonable unless you are able to secure a pardon from your dealer.
The lessons learned came from a man with an understanding and arrangement with Peter at Hirsch.
Mine is with Peter at Target Shooting Products.
My testing is at 100 yards, always shooting five 10-shot groups.
All testing is one on the same target and groups are shot starting with a clean barrel and the targets shot in the same sequence.
Rarely do I find the first shot being in the group. My Remington 40XB invariably is high and left. Sometimes that 9-shot group remains significant and remains a person choice to count it or not.
Testing ammo before purchase is not everything . . . it is the only thing. At one time I had about 8000 rounds of the same lot . . . now about 5000 as four rifles prefer it.
Testing ammo is not a matter of life or death . . . it is much more important than that!
Based on grauhanen's targets and the results from the first set of targets, what will he do when that lot is depleted?
At our recent Championships, my first relay targets scored 599-38X.
The second relay scored 594-37X. On my second last target, the first shot was an X, followed by a 8, 9 and 10 for a 97-7X. The 12 10-shot groups averaged less that 1.07" c-c.
 
Biologist, you make an apt observation about the frequency in almost every box of what are often called fliers. Even the so-called top tier ammos such as Lapua Midas + and X-Act (with which I have experience with only one lot), there are lots that have a "flier" or two, perhaps a few more, in every box. I'm thinking that such lots of ammo are far more common than .22LR shooters might like to think.

Every lot of Midas + that I've shot, and not just recently, has had fliers, that is shots that don't go where expected. Are they actually fliers -- the product of a flawed cartridge -- or simply a characteristic of that lot, in which seemingly errant POIs are par for the course? I suspect that the really good lots, the ones that have a very high consistency rate, are fewer and farer between than most of us would prefer. In all the lots that I've shot at 100 yards since early August this year, I've had only one of them be consistently consistent with very few if any so-called "fliers". It happens to be Center X. (Of course, readers should note that this doesn't make CX "better"; instead it means that this particular lot of CX is very consistent, with few if any errant shots.)

To elaborate, the best results I've had at both 50 and 100 have come not with the most consistent lot referred to above. They came with the most consistent of the less-than-consistent Midas +. When I produced my best results at 50 yards, they were the consequence of being lucky enough to have 25 shots from one box that, when I randomly picked them, happened to be 25 consecutive consistent rounds. The same thing happened with my best results at 100 -- I lucked out and happened to get 30 very consistent consecutive rounds.

There are very good lots of CX and M+ being produced -- and presumably of X-Act also. The price of the ammo, however, is no guarantee of its consistency. About a year-and-a-half ago, a dealer gifted me one box of X-Act with a shipment of ammo. Last year in September I finally tried out that box, as I was running low on known good ammo. The first half box of the X-Act produced an unremarkable five group average at 50 (57 at my range) of .393". I thought I understood why the box was given to me. But the second 25 rounds from the same box produced one of my best targets at that time, with a five group average of .204". I bought three bricks of the same lot and eventually discovered that the results obtained on my first target represented the more typical performance of this lot.

The most consistent lots don't seem to make it often enough to Canadian ammo dealers. It seems many of the lots of CX, M+ (I shoot Lapua almost exclusively) are inconsistent in that they have those "fliers" to which Biologist refers. I've got ideas on why this occurs, but there's no way to verify them or to know much more than what the targets tell shooters because Lapua, like the other major match ammo makers, doesn't reveal much ammo production information, keeping it's manufacturing secrets to itself.
 
When it comes to rimfire - consistency starts with the person who spreads the primer material - if it wasn't as consistent as before it will cause variations - I do not put much stock in quality ammo - I just go and shoot my Mark II some days the groups are freaking good other times not so much but at 50 yards I will seldom get groups over 1 inch. My set up is a pencil barrel Mark II with a Simmons 4x32 group that cost me about $50 bucks. The main reason I shoot my 22 is that it's fun and I enjoy the time I spend doing it - I call it pew pew therapy
 
Regarding Biologist's suspicion that SK varieties of ammo are culled from the Lapua production line, he's on the right track. SK and Lapua are, however, made on two different production lines. They may use similar, perhaps even the same, casings (and headstamps) and bullets, but they are made apart from one another. Both SK and Lapua grade production runs into the different varieties they offer.

In the case of SK, two "loads" (I don't like that term for describing .22LR) of round nose lead ammo are produced, and the major varieties of SK are graded from those two. Below is the explanation given by the American distributor of SK/Lapua.



See h ttps://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/cz-usa-model-457-22-lr/365081
 
To simplify in the case of Lapua, all three varieties -- Center X, Midas +, and X-Act -- are produced on the same production line. By means known only to Lapua, the product is graded into the different varieties.

New lot numbers are given after any time the machinery is stopped, adjustments or replacements are made to tooling, and whenever new batches of bullets, propellant, brass, or priming compound are introduced. The process is more complicated, but that's the gist of it.

No doubt both Eley and RWS use a similar process in producing their different varieties of ammo.

It's worth noting that the quantity of ammo in a particular lot is not great. Lots of Eley Tenex, for example, may contain only three or four cases (of 5000 rounds each) to no more than seven. Lapua Center X can be produced in lots no more than three cases in quantity; some lots undoubtedly have a few more. It's likely that M+ and X-Act are smaller in quantity than any lots of CX that come out of the same production run.

How does Lapua, to continue with that ammo maker, determine what becomes CX or M+ or X-Act? The direct answer is that only Lapua knows. When Eley had it's no-longer-available Lot Analyser, which showed online the test results of each lot of Eley ammo, it seemed obvious that each lot of ammo produced by Eley was tested in the Eley test rifles. It seems likely that Lapua and RWS do something similar, although neither has ever had available to consumers an online site like Eley's Lot Analyser.

The interesting thing that the Eley Lot Analyser revealed, however, was that it's top tier ammo, Eley Tenex, could produce relatively poor results in the Eley test barrels (Eley apparently tests it's ammo through four different test barrels). There were lots of Eley Match, ostensibly a lesser grade, that seemed to have better test results than some lots of Tenex. That hints that the grading of the ammo may not simply be a product of its results in the test barrels.

Perhaps, and I speculate here, the gradation of the ammo depends, to a degree at least, on something else, possibly where an ammo is produced in the production stream. Is it possible that, in the case of Eley, Tenex is the ammo that is produced at a particular point in production -- in the beginning, middle, or end of the production run that produces Tenex, Match, or Team?

If that's the case, and I have no way of knowing whether it is, it's possible that Lapua and RWS also grade their ammos similarly. In other words, would Eley or Lapua or RWS be able to know in advance that when all aspects of ammo production are operating optimally, the "best" ammo tends to come from a certain place in the production run?
 
horseman2 said:
Based on grauhanen's targets and the results from the first set of targets, what will he do when that lot is depleted?
Click to expand...

That's a great question, Mel. When my best lot is gone, which will be very soon indeed, I'll be out of luck. When I can afford it again, I'll test new lots of ammo.

It may be worth noting that when a dealer has only a single lot of match ammo left, shooters shouldn't have high expectations for it's performance -- at least until they can shoot it themselves. When there's only a small quantity of match ammo left in a dealer's stocks, it can be like buying a used car. Everyone knows that Honda or Toyota cars are usually very good. But if you go to a used Honda or Toyota lot and there's only one or two left, there may be a reason why those particular vehicles weren't selected by previous buyers. Even Honda and Toyota make cars of the same model that are less desirable than others. Same with match ammo. Maybe it hasn't been bought for a reason. Of course this isn't a hard and fast rule. It's simply an observation I make after buying match ammo in the past.
 
grauhanen said:
The rifle is good, but no rifle will outshoot the ammo it's given.
Click to expand...

Grauhanen,
This is a really interesting discussion. The intricacies of ammo variance is more complicated than I would have ever imagined.

IvoB said:
The main reason I shoot my 22 is that it's fun and I enjoy the time I spend doing it - I call it pew pew therapy
Click to expand...

I really appreciate the knowledge you're sharing - it's fascinating. When it comes to shooting though, I think more like IvoB - I'm happy to be grouping 1" at 50 yards. Except that I am not there with iron sights yet. I can shoot about 1" at 25 yards reliably with irons, but that's pretty standard stuff. I'll be happy when I group 1" at 50 yards with irons.

Last thing Grauhanen. A while back, you were talking about HV vs SV rounds, and how it is important to test different kinds of ammo. It really motivated me to use SV only and to see which ammo tended to be most accurate in my rifle. Thanks for that and for all the other good info!

Cheers,
Neil
 
All very good info but remember to also include ambient temps in your testing. Rimfire ammo is temp sensitive... as the ammo is affected by temp, it affects the barrel.

Test in the same temp range as you are going to compete. It can help.

Jerry
 
A great discussion combined with the SSDD "Same Shooter Different Day" syndrome and not all ammunition is created equal.

Some of the discussions suggests a lot of match grade ammo from Eley is between 31,000 and 35,000.
Removing some for testing, culling, etc., at best there are six cases of 5000 rounds.
So what happens to those spare bricks? Probably go into a case of lower grade and it becomes the distributors problem.

Eley does not publish the velocities on their match grades of ammo now but one must get the lot number and research it himself.
My testing procedure would be to worry about that after the testing or not worry about it at all. Previously I would request lots in the 1060-1069 range.
This evolved over a period of time when I got stuck with a brick from a group order and have subsequently tested lots from the 1040's to the 1080's.

I tested XAct once, a prize from a shoot, and it did not perform in my Remington nor for anyone else of the "unlucky" winners!

While ammunition may be one feature we can limit, it is the luck of the draw and everything may change on game day judging by the range of expletives uttered!

Since Jerry responded while I was composing, one competitor went to shoots with four different lots and made his decision on what lot to use based on Density Altitude which could change during the day.
While I have a Kestrel 4000 I have not progressed beyond the luck of the draw on game day with only one lot of tested ammunition.
 
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And here I thought that I was the weak link
in the equation .

Seriously as Glen & Mel have proven , Testing lots and having
an abundance of that lot is invaluable .

I shoot RWS Target Rifle & SK Standard Plus ( mid grade $9 to $10 / box )
regularly depending which rifle that I shoot & which brand it prefers .

Thinking that buying a couple boxes of High Grade Match ammo (Elly Tenex , Lapua Centre-x , RWS R 50 )
for more consistent accuracy in competition I have been disappointed
more often than not.

''Better the Ammo You Know , Than the Ammo You Don't ''
 
Really depends on how your barrel is set up to see benefits from higher end match ammo.

There is definitely an increase in QC wrt to higher grade ammos... many factory barrels shoot better with reg SK and Eley options.

Jerry
 
I only shoot 50m benchrest and occasionally 100m just for fun. I don't have any kind of spiffy equipment to do it with either - a r/h and l/h BSA Martini International MkII from 1957 and 63, and a 1963 Anschutz Model 1409.

However, I'm lucky that I can buy ALL the European brands, as well as a number of those made in US. I have to say that NOBODY shoots the US-made stuff, except for plinking, or in their semi-autos, and then it's mostly the high-stepping stuff like CCI Mini-Mags.

I know it's not generally talked about here, but in UK you are limited to how much ammunition you can hold at any one time - the penalties for exceeding that limit, in the event that you are found out, are both draconian and unforgiving. Up to five years jail and permanent prohibition from ever having guns again. If you are engaged in competition, then you might get away with being allowed to buy up to a couple of thousand at a time, but you CAN, if you are shooting for the top level, buy a complete lot, having tried it out at the National shooting Centre - the Lord Roberts National Small-bore rifle Association's HQ and training facilities at Bisley.

Because I have twenty-one rifles, only seven of which are .22cal, and therefore don't shoot that calibre that much [I have in only one 81-year-old semi-auto rifle] I can only have 500 .22 rounds at any one time. That's Eley Match, or GECO standard.
 
Mystic Precision said:
Really depends on how your barrel is set up to see benefits from higher end match ammo.

There is definitely an increase in QC wrt to higher grade ammos... many factory barrels shoot better with reg SK and Eley options.
Click to expand...

It's not clear what is meant by "how your barrel is set up to see benefits from high end match ammo." What does it mean to "set up a barrel"? The chamber is what it is, unless it's rechambered; the rifling is not user alterable, unless it's lapped; the barrel length is fixed unless it's shortened; the diameter of the barrel is also fixed, unless it's made slimmer; the muzzle can be re-crowned, but that can't change anything unless the original crown has an issue.

None of these steps will change how a poorly performing lot of ammo does, regardless of how high end it is.

More relevant here, and the point that should be drawn thus far in the thread, is that high end match ammo is not monolithic: that is to say it's all different and it all doesn't shoot equally well. Some lots of high end ammo don't shoot very well, while others do. In other words, no one should buy high end ammo and expect to get good results. If the results aren't good, the lot of that particular variety -- whether it's Lapua Center X, Midas +, X-Act, or Eley Match or Tenex -- simply doesn't perform well, in the particular rifle in question anyway.

It's possible to add a rimfire barrel tuner such as the Harrell tuner. But it's not a magic device that turns a poorly shooting barrel into a good one or turns inconsistent ammo into consistent shooting stuff. It's possible to alter pressure points in the stock's barrel channel or seek a more consistent torque level with the action screws.

Again, none of these steps will change a poorly performing lot of ammo into a good one.

With regard to factory barrels shooting better with "regular" less expensive SK or Eley options than high, it's not so simple. An average factory barrel is no different than a custom barrel in that, like the custom barrel, it won't outshoot the ammo it's given. To put it another way, regardless of the make of the barrel, it can't outperform the ammo.

But an average factory barrel is never going to be competitive with a top quality barrel.

To be sure, there's an economy in shooting less expensive varieties of SK or Eley, and the law of diminishing returns points to the hard truth that even with high end ammo an average barrel is never going to shoot especially well. To illustrate with an analogy, an underpowered Kia or Hyundai or Toyota will never outperform a Corvette, even if it's given high octane gasoline. An average factory barrel, such as those on mass produced North American rifles, CZs, Tikkas, and the like, aren't made to the higher standards that custom barrels or even most Anschutz barrels are made. It's not in their DNA to do especially well, even with the best ammos.

I wouldn't recommend that someone using a mass produced rifle should use expensive Midas +. He should shoot less expensive ammo that is more in line with realistic accuracy expectations with that rifle. It won't shoot better with less expensive ammo than with top end ammo, but it can't shoot like a high end barrel even if it uses high end ammo. It can shoot better, but the investment in high end ammo is not usually worth the return.
 
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