Norinco CQA - Hot barrel ... break in period?
- Thread starter 6GunJustice
- Start date
Throttle_monkey1
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I don't know how to quote multiple posts so I won't even try.
Mmattock- I believe that any burrs or rough edges will be removed by the first few bullets going down the bore. Any flashes or burrs will not withstand bullets speeding down the bore yet be removed by a cleaning brush.
Daniel- even the theory of engine break in is being challenged. The theory was that you run the engine lightly to let the rings seat. Some engine tuners recommend running the engine under hard acceleration and chopping the throttle as this helps seat the rings better. It's what I do on my MX bikes.
Mmattock- I believe that any burrs or rough edges will be removed by the first few bullets going down the bore. Any flashes or burrs will not withstand bullets speeding down the bore yet be removed by a cleaning brush.
Daniel- even the theory of engine break in is being challenged. The theory was that you run the engine lightly to let the rings seat. Some engine tuners recommend running the engine under hard acceleration and chopping the throttle as this helps seat the rings better. It's what I do on my MX bikes.
Boresnakes get embedded with hard particles of carbon and other crap, then drag those through the barrel on subsequent passes. Ask how many target shooters use boresnakes if you want to know their opinion of them. Since they are interested in accuracy and maintaining it, I tend to go with their advice.
Just click the little cloud with the " symbol in it at the bottom right of each post you want to quote, then click "reply with quote" on the last one and it will copy all the posts you marked.
I am not disagreeing with you, that is just the theory as I have read it. I think it's BS and one should just perform an initial cleaning to remove all storage gunk and then go shoot the gun and clean as required after that.
I don't think anyone suggests light running to seat rings anymore. The rings need combustion pressure to seat and that means some hard pulls to start with. Lots of tuners will now do a few pulls on a dyno to seat rings, change oil and call it a day. I did half a dozen 3rd gear roll ons with my current GSXR1000 as soon as I got it home from the dealer and then nothing else. It has been strong and oil tight ever since.
Mark
Travis Bickle
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Upper Lower Middle Alberta
Barrel "break in" is utter bullsh*t Sir.
A gimmick marketing ploy for bench rest shooters.
A gimmick marketing ploy for bench rest shooters.
Mr McMillan does and he's got several long range records achieved without a "broken in barrel" to support that. There's no science to prove it does anything, its horsesh!t.
Tdc
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Ok first things first, this is a norinco made rifle that was initially designed as an assault rifle. The last word in accuracy was never the intent, from the design, and I very much doubt 1/4 moa was what norinco had in mind when manufacturing this rifle, or even noveske or knights for that matter. Even if breaking in a barrel had merit(to me it sounds like horse#### rituals) it would be for the uber precision rifles. As for durability or longevity of a barrel please do tell how baptizing the barrel in holy hoppes#9 does anything of value, you shoot it a lot, then clean it. Pretty simple stuff.
And if breaking in a rifle barrel is so critical how come no major manufacturer or even the experts have one unified idea of how to break a barrel in? Again sounds like a gimmick, set up to sell a bunch of products to someone looking to clutch onto straws.
And if breaking in a rifle barrel is so critical how come no major manufacturer or even the experts have one unified idea of how to break a barrel in? Again sounds like a gimmick, set up to sell a bunch of products to someone looking to clutch onto straws.
Boresnakes get embedded with hard particles of carbon and other crap, then drag those through the barrel on subsequent passes. Ask how many target shooters use boresnakes if you want to know their opinion of them. Since they are interested in accuracy and maintaining it, I tend to go with their advice.
I know a few target shooters who use boresnakes for quick cleaning out on the line. While a patch system gets things a lot cleaner, a bore snake is just fine for quickies.
I'm still calling shens on this. I simply cannot believe that carbon is harder then steel, if someone has Rockwell data for carbon, I'd sure like to see it. After doing a bit of research into the sorts of chemicals generated from a bullet when fired, I can't see any of these being as hard or harder then the barrel materials.
The only thing that I can possibly see as a reasonable worry about boresnakes is the brass weight on the end, if someone gets sloppy and someone drags it across the crown and mucks it up... but I severely doubt that would happen, as it's *brass* for a reason.
Anyways now I've threadjacked it into that stupid ages old boresnakes-vs-etc argument. So now I'll stop.
I know a few target shooters who use boresnakes for quick cleaning out on the line. While a patch system gets things a lot cleaner, a bore snake is just fine for quickies.
I'm still calling shens on this. I simply cannot believe that carbon is harder then steel, if someone has Rockwell data for carbon, I'd sure like to see it. After doing a bit of research into the sorts of chemicals generated from a bullet when fired, I can't see any of these being as hard or harder then the barrel materials.
The only thing that I can possibly see as a reasonable worry about boresnakes is the brass weight on the end, if someone gets sloppy and someone drags it across the crown and mucks it up... but I severely doubt that would happen, as it's *brass* for a reason.
Anyways now I've threadjacked it into that stupid ages old boresnakes-vs-etc argument. So now I'll stop.
r34skyline
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You do know diamonds are pure carbon right?
Oh as a follow up, I contacted Steyr and Accuracy International to ask them their opinion on the matter. Still awaiting response from Accuracy International, but Steyr has no official break in period or procedure, 3 test shots are fired, the gun is then cleaned lubed sent out good to go.
This is from Heart's website (Hart precision barrels)
What do you recommend for barrel break-in?
We do not believe that a break in procedure is required with our barrels. If you follow our normal cleaning procedure, outlined in this brochure, you should not have any problems with your new rifle. You always want to clean your rifle as often as your course of fire will allow. If you have time to shoot one and clean, that would be fine, but we personally do not feel it is necessary. Please be sure to only use the cleaning solvents listed in our cleaning instructions.
Can I get my barrel too clean?
Yes, it is possible to get your barrel too clean, or to actually dry out the stainless steel. After brushing your barrel with a brass brush soaked with Hoppe's #9, Shooters Choice, or Butch's Bore Shine & Oil, several times and letting it soak for a few minutes, run a couple of dry patches in your barrel. Shoot a few more rounds, and if there is a considerable amount of cooper or fouling, then you may need to repeat the procedure. The key is, if your rifle is performing well, then you are probably getting it clean enough
What do you recommend for barrel break-in?
We do not believe that a break in procedure is required with our barrels. If you follow our normal cleaning procedure, outlined in this brochure, you should not have any problems with your new rifle. You always want to clean your rifle as often as your course of fire will allow. If you have time to shoot one and clean, that would be fine, but we personally do not feel it is necessary. Please be sure to only use the cleaning solvents listed in our cleaning instructions.
Can I get my barrel too clean?
Yes, it is possible to get your barrel too clean, or to actually dry out the stainless steel. After brushing your barrel with a brass brush soaked with Hoppe's #9, Shooters Choice, or Butch's Bore Shine & Oil, several times and letting it soak for a few minutes, run a couple of dry patches in your barrel. Shoot a few more rounds, and if there is a considerable amount of cooper or fouling, then you may need to repeat the procedure. The key is, if your rifle is performing well, then you are probably getting it clean enough
Here is one from Kreiger (precision barrels ) As stated above, even the manufacturers can't decide what/what not to do, what a scam....
With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.
Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished” without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.
Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more "color" if you are using a chemical cleaner. Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.
Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of "shoot and clean" as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.
With any premium barrel that has been finish lapped -- such as your Krieger Barrel --, the lay or direction of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, so fouling is minimal compared to a barrel with internal tooling marks. This is true of any properly finish-lapped barrel regardless of how it is rifled. If it is not finish-lapped, there will be reamer marks left in the bore that are directly across the direction of the bullet travel. This occurs even in a button-rifled barrel as the button cannot completely iron out these reamer marks.
Because the lay of the finish is in the direction of the bullet travel, very little is done to the bore during break-in, but the throat is another story. When your barrel is chambered, by necessity there are reamer marks left in the throat that are across the lands, i.e. across the direction of the bullet travel. In a new barrel they are very distinct; much like the teeth on a very fine file. When the bullet is forced into the throat, copper dust is removed from the jacket material and released into the gas which at this temperature and pressure is actually a plasma. The copper dust is vaporized in this plasma and is carried down the barrel. As the gas expands and cools, the copper comes out of suspension and is deposited in the bore. This makes it appear as if the source of the fouling is the bore when it is actually for the most part the new throat. If this copper is allowed to stay in the bore, and subsequent bullets and deposits are fired over it, copper which adheres well to itself, will build up quickly and may be difficult to remove later. So when we break in a barrel, our goal is to get the throat “polished” without allowing copper to build up in the bore. This is the reasoning for the "fire-one-shot-and-clean" procedure.
Every barrel will vary slightly in how many rounds they take to break in For example a chrome moly barrel may take longer to break in than stainless steel because it is more abrasion resistant even though it is a similar hardness. Also chrome moly has a little more of an affinity for copper than stainless steel so it will usually show a little more "color" if you are using a chemical cleaner. Rim Fire barrels can take an extremely long time to break in, sometimes requiring several hundred rounds or more. But cleaning can be lengthened to every 25-50 rounds. The break-in procedure and the cleaning procedure are really the same except for the frequency. Remember the goal is to get or keep the barrel clean while breaking in the throat with bullets being fired over it.
Finally, the best way to tell if the barrel is broken in is to observe the patches; i.e. when the fouling is reduced. This is better than some set number of cycles of "shoot and clean" as many owners report practically no fouling after the first few shots, and more break-in would be pointless. Conversely, if more is required, a set number would not address that either. Besides, cleaning is not a completely benign procedure so it should be done carefully and no more than necessary.
Well TDC, everyone is entitled to their opinions.
You stated it's a Myth, I stated there are successful shooters who don't think it's a Myth at all.
TDC, do you carry a gun for a living? (not that this would make someone an expert, but in some cases it actually does) If not do you competition shoot?
If you do have you ever won any titles? in any shooting discipline or anything? Because the people who are winning competitions and titles are often breaking-in their barrels.
When you can go to the Canadian Bench Rest Championship, or other high-level discipline, and beat a few of those fellows, many of whom break-in barrels, then I'll put more weight on your opinion.
Until then you are entitled to your opinion but I for one will put more weight on the G. David Tubb's of the world who have the trophies and titles to their name.
I remember talking to Beltfed a few years ago about guys spouting off about how good they can shoot, how accurate their gun is, this is the best gun, I'm a tactical trainer - been to blackwater and on and on...
None of these guys ever seemed to have served in any Police or Military Unit and on game day they never seemed to show up for a match. All the XCR's that shot .5" of a group at any range never
made it to a match. The guys bringing home the titles and trophies didn't shoot them either.
Rich
You stated it's a Myth, I stated there are successful shooters who don't think it's a Myth at all.
TDC, do you carry a gun for a living? (not that this would make someone an expert, but in some cases it actually does) If not do you competition shoot?
If you do have you ever won any titles? in any shooting discipline or anything? Because the people who are winning competitions and titles are often breaking-in their barrels.
When you can go to the Canadian Bench Rest Championship, or other high-level discipline, and beat a few of those fellows, many of whom break-in barrels, then I'll put more weight on your opinion.
Until then you are entitled to your opinion but I for one will put more weight on the G. David Tubb's of the world who have the trophies and titles to their name.
I remember talking to Beltfed a few years ago about guys spouting off about how good they can shoot, how accurate their gun is, this is the best gun, I'm a tactical trainer - been to blackwater and on and on...
None of these guys ever seemed to have served in any Police or Military Unit and on game day they never seemed to show up for a match. All the XCR's that shot .5" of a group at any range never
made it to a match. The guys bringing home the titles and trophies didn't shoot them either.
Rich
