Norinco CQA - Hot barrel ... break in period?

Rich LPS said:
Well TDC, everyone is entitled to their opinions.

You stated it's a Myth, I stated there are successful shooters who don't think it's a Myth at all.
TDC, do you carry a gun for a living? (not that this would make someone an expert, but in some cases it actually does) If not do you competition shoot?
If you do have you ever won any titles? in any shooting discipline or anything? Because the people who are winning competitions and titles are often breaking-in their barrels.
When you can go to the Canadian Bench Rest Championship, or other high-level discipline, and beat a few of those fellows, many of whom break-in barrels, then I'll put more weight on your opinion.

Until then you are entitled to your opinion but I for one will put more weight on the G. David Tubb's of the world who have the trophies and titles to their name.

I remember talking to Beltfed a few years ago about guys spouting off about how good they can shoot, how accurate their gun is, this is the best gun, I'm a tactical trainer - been to blackwater and on and on...
None of these guys ever seemed to have served in any Police or Military Unit and on game day they never seemed to show up for a match. All the XCR's that shot .5" of a group at any range never
made it to a match. The guys bringing home the titles and trophies didn't shoot them either.

Rich
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Well some of your post is accurate. Serving or carrying a firearm for a living does not make you an expert.

I do compete, in fact I've competed against yourself and won, not that it matters.

Some big names believe in break in others don't. And both sides have won many a matches, so what difference did break in make if plenty of non broke barrels are winning as well? Its a waste of time and resources and no one can scientifically prove what it is they're trying to achieve. Until there's hard data and evidence to support it, its nothing but a gimmick. In addition, break in is pointless on a carbine designed for service as accuracy was never the goal as skyline pointed out above.

Tdc
 
Please enlighten me, as I don't know you and don't know where we would have competed. Agreed on breaking in the carbine barrel, pointless.

Rich
 
IIRC Filthy 14 (a BCM 16" mid-lenght rifle used for classes) ran upwards of 40 000 rds with no barrel cleaning and was still shooting with acceptable accuracy.
 
TDC if you are referring to any 3 gun competitions, I've won every one I've ever entered...including any that you ever came down to.

Rich
 
Rich LPS said:
TDC, still wondering where we "competed", or are you mistaken?

Rich
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It was Service Rifle....nope, I don't think that was it.
PPC then.....nope, probably not that one either.
Carbine shoot?.....nope I kicked everyone's a$$ on that one.....;)

As far as I'm concerned, barrel break in on a Norinco rifle should at minimum contain the following:
A) Clean the barrel and chamber with brushes and solvents
B) head space check
C) run a bore scope the length of the barrel.
D) stay the hell away from Norinco ammo.

With regard to other barrels, I've actually tried it once and got really bored really fast.
I ended up pouring rounds through it - kind of like the time I tried to break in a newly uncrated 350 in my old CJ-7 - lasted a whole half a day:D
 
Rich LPS said:
TDC if you are referring to any 3 gun competitions, I've won every one I've ever entered...including any that you ever came down to.

Rich
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Sorry rich, I have the trophies to prove it. 3 gun matches from your town, five years running. This was a few years back. Before all the range closure bs.

Tdc
 
I found a good carry case for bore snakes.

images


The fact that they break off in barrels is enough of a reason for me to stay away. The fact they oval muzzles like all cord pull throughs would be a good reason as well.
Lets be honest, if a bore snake will clean a barrel in a couple passes it was clean enough to not need cleaning.
 
Gunnerlove said:
I found a good carry case for bore snakes.

images


The fact that they break off in barrels is enough of a reason for me to stay away. The fact they oval muzzles like all cord pull throughs would be a good reason as well.
Lets be honest, if a bore snake will clean a barrel in a couple passes it was clean enough to not need cleaning.
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I agree. Bore snakes are far from ideal.

Tdc
 
The only way to scientifically prove or disprove this would be to take a few thousand guns and do barrel break-ins on half of them and let the world's too shooters shoot countless groups through them and take the average groupings for both. You still wouldn't be able to eliminate ammo unless you spent time developing the most accurate load for each rifle.
 
Well TDC, the three guns you attended and won were not attended by me as I was working. As I said before, every three gun I've ever attended I have won including the ones you were at, so sorry to burst your bubble.

Have you ever shot any other shooting sports other than a minor local 3 gun?

Rich
 
I am of the opinion that barrels need to be shot to break them in ,however I have read David Tubb's articles on barrel break in and I believe that he is correct it applies really to target or precision rifles to get that last millimeter of of accuracy out of them . As for the great AR ,Swiss Arms ,Norinco and XCR debate it is simply a waste of time to break in the barrels .Just shoot them and after say 500 to a thousand rounds if the barrel is still a Piece of #### .Sell the rifle and get another one and perhaps you will have learned that quality is better than quantity .
Levi some trophy's are worth displaying and others are best kept in a recycle bin .
 
All barrels I have needed a break in on the first day. I had to sleep with them under my pillow the first night!
 
Rich LPS said:
Well TDC, the three guns you attended and won were not attended by me as I was working. As I said before, every three gun I've ever attended I have won including the ones you were at, so sorry to burst your bubble.

Have you ever shot any other shooting sports other than a minor local 3 gun?

Rich
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What years did you compete and win rich? you should have the trophies so it shouldn't be hard to determine.


What other events would one compete in here in Canada? Ipsc is a joke and idpa is not far behind.

Tdc
 
Rich LPS said:
Well TDC, the three guns you attended and won were not attended by me as I was working. As I said before, every three gun I've ever attended I have won including the ones you were at, so sorry to burst your bubble.

Have you ever shot any other shooting sports other than a minor local 3 gun?

Rich
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Can you tell us which years you won the leth 3 gun?

Why don't you guys settle this at the next 3 gun?
 
Savage said:
I am of the opinion that barrels need to be shot to break them in ,however I have read David Tubb's articles on barrel break in and I believe that he is correct it applies really to target or precision rifles to get that last millimeter of of accuracy out of them . As for the great AR ,Swiss Arms ,Norinco and XCR debate it is simply a waste of time to break in the barrels .Just shoot them and after say 500 to a thousand rounds if the barrel is still a Piece of #### .Sell the rifle and get another one and perhaps you will have learned that quality is better than quantity .
Levi some trophy's are worth displaying and others are best kept in a recycle bin .
Click to expand...

Let's get back on topic. If break in offers any kind of performance gain it is minute. For the sake of this argument let's say it does improve performance. That being the case it should be measurable. Seeing as how it is not as no one has any evidence to support that claim, the practice is pointless.

If break in were useful there would be a universal method but it seems every maker and shooter and sniper and instructor has their own method. none of which can scientifically explain or validate what it is they're doing or why.

If break in yields even a 10% improvement in your groups, who's to say your ammo or optics or the shooter aren't making that difference? Having a great day and just can't mess up. Was it you, your optics, your ammo, the weather conditions or break in?

Lastly, how many people can honestly see and appreciate this perceived gain in performance? I'm gonna say less than 1/10th of 1% of all shooters hav e the skills to even look this far into their system for a competitive advantage.

Tdc
 
2003, 2004 trophies on the shelf behind me, I think 2002 and 2007, in a box somewhere. Match director will attest as he would give me a hard time when registering (all tongue and cheek of course).
Lots of shooting sports out there, just got to go out and try.

Rich
 
You are talking about the 20% of the shooters that shoot F TR or precision rifle that will notice the improvement the other 80 % well they are they may be in the game they are not well sorted out as the top 20% are .Well look at this way even a 2-5 % gain at 1000 yds is quite noticeable and in most most cases that could spell out a difference of a in hitting the X ring our coming in second . For arguments sake it`s a 2% improvement and your rifle is dialed in and it gets a .500 inch group at 100 yds if all things being equal you move back to 1000 yds so what is your group size going to be 5 inches and take 2% off that its 4 inches that is an improvement . You are not going to see a a dramatic improvement in any thing under 500 yds after that it will make a difference . The target s 10 x score ring is 10 inches at 1000 yards given all variables when you reduce your point if impact spread by 1 inch .I have shot F TR with arifle that got .5 inch groups and at 1000 yards I was lucky to hit the 10 x ring 3 times the 9 x ring 5 times and the 8 x ring 2 times out of a 10 round string If the group shrunk 1 inch that could have changed about 3 of the 9 x score to 10 x and the 2 8 x into 9 x.So it can make a difference .
Like it has been said before about Schmidt & Bender vs Nightforce vs Leupold high end rifle optics and there performance , yes there are differences that a user will notice but for about 80% of the shooters out there hell the cheap ass Knockoffs to them are awesome . We all forget about quality versus cost and for many they will buy an expensive rifle and throw some POS scope on it and complain the rifle is the problem . There is a saying you get what you pay for and in the shooting sports it is never a truer word said .
 
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