Norinco M14 accuracy

[Seafury]

Ok, I'm getting confused here, is the rifle capable of decent accuracy or not. I'm in fact looking into the M305 but would like to know, when properly scoped, mechanically running well, on a bi-pod and developed load for a specific rifle, in good shooter's hands, what kind of accuracy can it consistently produce. Is it 1MOA, 1.5,2,3 ??? I can do with my long range 308 Win bolt action fairly consistent 0.7 MOA. And I wouldn't expect the same results with M305 ( I understand the precision difference between M305 and real M14), as it fundamentally would be unrealistic but what can I truly expect ? I'll have to base my purchase on that. If it can achieve 1-1.5 MOA, I'm in, if 2, possibly, if 2.5 MOA, not so sure anymore but still not dismising it altogether. So what can the M305 under the above mentioned criteria produce ?

Depends who you ask. Look at the US military specifications for M14 accuracy for Win, TRW, HRA and SA and ask yourself. Is a $450 Chinese made copy going to deliver better accuracy than mil spec? Why would people spend thousands of dollars on heavy barreled bolt guns to achieve Norinco accuracy? Why do NM grade M14 rifles only achieve MOA if standard weight GI clones can? Why does Weatherby only guarantee 1.5 MOA out of the box?

I think if you are looking for a tack driver you'd best look somewhere else but if you are looking to have a lot of fun with a battle rifle that is interesting to research and modify you'll be very pleased with it.

 

[BattleRife]

Ok, I'm getting confused here... would like to know, when properly scoped, mechanically running well, on a bi-pod and developed load for a specific rifle, in good shooter's hands, what kind of accuracy can it consistently produce. Is it 1MOA, 1.5,2,3 ???... ( I understand the precision difference between M305 and real M14)

Norinco M14s will vary more than other guns, but if all you do is yank it out of the box, attach accessories and start shooting, 2 MOA is the probably the absolute best you can hope for. That would represent a very lucky draw in the Norinco lottery. 3 MOA is probably the norm, 4 not uncommon.

And I'm not sure what you mean by "the precision difference between M305 and real M14". They shoot about the same. The US DoD accuracy standard for the M14 was about 5.5 MOA. And so many rifles made by Springfield Armory, Winchester and H&R were rejected for failing to meet even that standard that there was a government investigation into the mechanical design and the technical competence of those manufacturers.

 

[Pop]

Ok, I'm getting confused here, is the rifle capable of decent accuracy or not. I'm in fact looking into the M305 but would like to know, when properly scoped, mechanically running well, on a bi-pod and developed load for a specific rifle, in good shooter's hands, what kind of accuracy can it consistently produce. Is it 1MOA, 1.5,2,3 ??? I can do with my long range 308 Win bolt action fairly consistent 0.7 MOA. And I wouldn't expect the same results with M305 ( I understand the precision difference between M305 and real M14), as it fundamentally would be unrealistic but what can I truly expect ? I'll have to base my purchase on that. If it can achieve 1-1.5 MOA, I'm in, if 2, possibly, if 2.5 MOA, not so sure anymore but still not dismising it altogether. So what can the M305 under the above mentioned criteria produce ?

The problem with answering your question is that there's no consistency from rifle to rifle when it comes to the M305. Norc quality control is all over the map, and so nobody can say with certainty that if you buy one you can absolutely count on at least X accuracy. Sometimes you get lucky and you can tweak them into shooters, sometimes you don't, and very occasionally the barrel falls off. Another aspect muddying up the results people are reporting is that there's no standard for reporting accuracy. Some folks might declare the best 3-round group they've ever fired as what the rifle is capable of, dismissing all lesser groups as shooter error, while others have more stringent standards.

What is true is that nearly all piston-operated semi-automatic rifles (of whatever variety or source) measure their accuracy in multiples of MOA, rather than fractions (yes, to the mathematicians out there, I know that technically those are the same thing - I'm trying to make a point here, lol). If an off-the-shelf Norc is grouping less than 5 MOA with cheap surplus plinker fodder, it's working as intended. Better ammo, some tweaking, a couple of replacement parts, bedding the stock - these will all probably shrink those groups down, but there are no guarantees.

My advice would be to buy one and see how it does. If you really don't like it, you'll almost certainly be able to get most of your money back on the EE in short order.

 

[Pr589]

Ok, I'm getting confused here, is the rifle capable of decent accuracy or not. I'm in fact looking into the M305 but would like to know, when properly scoped, mechanically running well, on a bi-pod and developed load for a specific rifle, in good shooter's hands, what kind of accuracy can it consistently produce. Is it 1MOA, 1.5,2,3 ??? I can do with my long range 308 Win bolt action fairly consistent 0.7 MOA. And I wouldn't expect the same results with M305 ( I understand the precision difference between M305 and real M14), as it fundamentally would be unrealistic but what can I truly expect ? I'll have to base my purchase on that. If it can achieve 1-1.5 MOA, I'm in, if 2, possibly, if 2.5 MOA, not so sure anymore but still not dismising it altogether. So what can the M305 under the above mentioned criteria produce ?

While others may disagree with me, in my experience under the conditions that you have outlined, I'd say that you would have a good chance of having an M305 that shoots reliably at 1.5-2.5 MOA. That said, with luck and a few tweaks it might be made to shoot better. Mine shoots very well averaging about 1.5 MOA in about a 0.7 to 2.5 MOA extreme spread (when I've not messed it up with various experiments)...and I'm still chasing the dream of reliable MOA average groups. The rifle may be an outlier and has a number of upgrades but still has a standard Chinese barrel....for now.

The difficulty in having a definitive answer is that there is much looser QA with the Chinese rifles and even the mid-point of quality seems to have varied year-to-year. Some will have great rifles while others, not. Tweaking helps most of these rifles but not all. Every make has some real stinkers...Norc more than most. Buy from a reliable store and do your own Q&A.

Another factor is how folks talk about their groups. M14 platform rifles are notorious for occasional flyers. Some will include these in their stated group sizes, while others discount them. Personally I include everything. Another group size issue is the number of fired-rounds per group. Some use 3, some 5 some 10. I usually use 5 rounds even though this has little statistical credibility.

I understand the precision difference between M305 and real M14

In my experience shooting with folks having Springfield M1As (are these real?? but they sure aren't M14s), I have not found any appreciable differences in precision between brands when they were in equivalent tune. Of course, you are more likely to have to work on the M305 to get it into similar tune as an out-of-the-box M1A. The biggest precision difference that I have found is in the availability of medium-weight barrels on M1A loaded and National Match rifles. These make a big difference in day-to-day precision. Rodauto on this site has just worked with TacticalTeacher/Barney to put a medium-weight US barrel on his M305. We'll see how much of a difference this makes as compared to his M1A Loaded - my guess is that it will shoot just as well. If it works out, a $250 barrel on a $500 platform that shoots as well as a $2000 (but much nicer) US rifle - you be the judge.

At the end-of-the-day, I've found the M305 to be one of the most entertaining (and functionally reliable) rifles for me. I've been playing with it for years and still like shooting it more than my rifles that group much better. Granted that this exercise will not appeal to everyone but if you like to tinker there aren't much better platforms except perhaps 10/22s.

 

[Pop]

Lol, awesome!

 

[Pop]

Granted that this exercise will not appeal to everyone but if you like to tinker there aren't much better platforms except perhaps 10/22s.

That, right there, is the heart of the appeal for me. They're infinitely interesting to tinker with and a lot of fun to shoot - it's hard to go wrong

 

[BattleRife]

Sometimes you get lucky and you can tweak them into shooters, sometimes you don't, and very occasionally the barrel falls off.

HA! Very true, it happened to a friend of mine, and there were a couple of other reports here on CGN. The good news is it almost always happens on the first shot, so if you get past that, you're good!

Another aspect muddying up the results people are reporting is that there's no standard for reporting accuracy. Some folks might declare the best 3-round group they've ever fired as what the rifle is capable of, dismissing all lesser groups as shooter error, while others have more stringent standards.

Also very true. I had one guy tell me his Norinco was a sub MOA rifle because he had fired one 3-shot group, and 2 of the bullets were less than one inch apart. The third hole was several inches away, but he figured that was the ammo's fault. It was the only group he ever shot.

I've also had a guy tell me he was confident his Norinco would shoot 1 to 1.5 MOA, because he had taken it to a clinic put on by Hungry. Of course he had never fired the rifle, before or after the clinic, but he had faith.

 

[johNTO]

This doesn't mean squat but….I took my BNIB SA SOCOM16 to the range without making any sight adjustments to the irons.
Rested the front of the stock on a bean bag(off a bench) and shot 3rnds at a 20yrd 14"x20" 5 ring target @ 25yrds. With my "naked" eyes I expected to see holes on the white paper but didn't. Asked my buddy (standing behind me with a 10x monocular) where my shots went! He laughed and told me all 3 were inside the 1.25" black bulls-eye. Good enough for me!
My results were done with Norc ammo. I know….sacrilegious to use this ammo in a $2000 rifle but is was all I had

btw…I cannot take credit for the keyboard shooter pic (found it on the net)

 

[eaglesnester]

Ok, I'm getting confused here, is the rifle capable of decent accuracy or not. I'm in fact looking into the M305 but would like to know, when properly scoped, mechanically running well, on a bi-pod and developed load for a specific rifle, in good shooter's hands, what kind of accuracy can it consistently produce. Is it 1MOA, 1.5,2,3 ??? I can do with my long range 308 Win bolt action fairly consistent 0.7 MOA. And I wouldn't expect the same results with M305 ( I understand the precision difference between M305 and real M14), as it fundamentally would be unrealistic but what can I truly expect ? I'll have to base my purchase on that. If it can achieve 1-1.5 MOA, I'm in, if 2, possibly, if 2.5 MOA, not so sure anymore but still not dismising it altogether. So what can the M305 under the above mentioned criteria produce ?

The standard of ordnance for the US Marine Corps Designated Company sniper is no more than 1.5MOA in the SAGE EBR stock. anything less is unacceptable and the rifle is rejected as a sniper weapon. The rifle is then removed from the SAGE stock resembled in the GI issue M305 stock and is re issued as a rack grade rifle. The average rack grade M305 shoots into 4 to 7MOA.

With a few minor changes and carefully prepared hand loads 1.5 MOA is doable. That is my experience with the ChiCom norinco, your mileage may vary.

 

[grey]

I have a Norc M305 and have made the following upgrades:

-- Boyds stock
-- upgraded Op Rod spring guide
-- upgraded Op Rod spring

I have a Nikon Buckmaster scope mounted with the Bassett scope mount.

This rifle will shoot 2" groups at 100 yards with cheap Chinese ammo all day long. When I am really working at it, I have gotten 1" groups with the same ammo. Maybe I am just lucky....., but I haven't spent a lot of money on mine and it shoot really well. Good luck.

 

[eaglesnester]

Are you on team Sadlak? I don't think my GI barrel is ever going to deliver 1.5" groups with military surplus. I don't spend much time shooting from the bench. I'm more of a practical shooter. I'll never own a Sage EBR stock. Of course my wife says I'm too negative to begin with.

No it probably will not deliver 1.5 MOA with military ammunition, more like 4 to 7 inches or so. That is still minute of moose or deer at 100 meters with the proper expanding non military ammo. With carefully prepared handloads and my above recommendations you should expect 1.5 to 3 inches or better from your rifle. At least that was and is my experience.Good shooten and have fun thats what its all about anyway.

 

[fiddler]

No it probably will not deliver 1.5 MOA with military ammunition, more like 4 to 7 inches or so. That is still minute of moose or deer at 100 meters with the proper expanding non military ammo. With carefully prepared handloads and my above recommendations you should expect 1.5 to 3 inches or better from your rifle. At least that was and is my experience.Good shooten and have fun thats what its all about anyway.

I've done nothing to mine, and I don't see the point. I bought it for a plinking rifle for sh*ts n giggles, and thats what I got. I can reload for it and spend a bunch of cash to upgrade it, but I wanted it for shooting 200 bulk rounds every time I take it out. I didn't want another rifle to precision load for, but just have fun. Mine has never shot off from a shooters rest.

 

[Seafury]

No it probably will not deliver 1.5 MOA with military ammunition, more like 4 to 7 inches or so. That is still minute of moose or deer at 100 meters with the proper expanding non military ammo. With carefully prepared handloads and my above recommendations you should expect 1.5 to 3 inches or better from your rifle. At least that was and is my experience.Good shooten and have fun thats what its all about anyway.

Thanks for the advice but I was hand loading for a TRW M14 I owned back in the mid 80's. Surplus ammo varies a great deal. I was fairly impressed by the consistency of the Norinco ammo a buddy of mine shot through his M305. The best ball I've shot was Israeli TZ80. The worst PMC. I don't generally worry about match grade reloading for my standard. I make sure the primer pocket is uniformed, flash hole deburred, full length sized and trimmed to length. More about safety than anything else. I'll shoot 168 SMK's or 147 gr FMJ's. It's chrome lined not hand lapped.

I think the string of postings on the last page from several guys is a very real portrayal of what can actually be expected out of these firearms. Telling them 1.5 MOA with a shim and tin coated piston sets them up for disappointment.

 

[kaskirov]

I took my M14 to the range yesterday.
-Dominion Arms SOCOM 18
-Boyds wood stock
-Bipod
-M14.ca CASM scope mount
-Vortex Viper 3-9
-Chinese crate FMJ ammo

edit: 100m range

There was one shot that I pulled funny; i'm assuming that was the flyer.
I was really happy with this group as it was just slightly worse than the BLR I was sighting in the same day. I guess I should be thrilled judging by this thread.

 

[One Lung Wonder]

Ok, I'm getting confused here, is the rifle capable of decent accuracy or not. I'm in fact looking into the M305 but would like to know, when properly scoped, mechanically running well, on a bi-pod and developed load for a specific rifle, in good shooter's hands, what kind of accuracy can it consistently produce. Is it 1MOA, 1.5,2,3 ??? I can do with my long range 308 Win bolt action fairly consistent 0.7 MOA. And I wouldn't expect the same results with M305 ( I understand the precision difference between M305 and real M14), as it fundamentally would be unrealistic but what can I truly expect ? I'll have to base my purchase on that. If it can achieve 1-1.5 MOA, I'm in, if 2, possibly, if 2.5 MOA, not so sure anymore but still not dismising it altogether. So what can the M305 under the above mentioned criteria produce ?

Quality is all over the place with them. I bought one and the rear sight wouldn't hold a zero - I got rid of that POS and haven't looked back. My advice is that if you are going to do it be prepared to tinker and fuss with it. Some guys have all the world of luck with them and others (like me) ended up wishing they had saved their $400.00 and put it toward a better gun. I am dubious of claims of MOA accuracy using bargain basement ammo in a bargain basement gun - but stranger things have been known to happen I suppose. Your mileage will vary.

 

[Ganderite]

[/IMG]

I suspect most groups I hear about are shot with what I see in the picture above.

I suggest we pick a standard target and post our 100 yard targets. This is what I did with my Mosin Nagant repro sniper today. Ammo was Mexican Match with the Sierra 174 Match. 10 shot group 2.25"

I also shot 5 shot groups. Yhey were a half inch smaller.


The target is the B8, found here:
https://sites.google.com/site/gonzotargets/

 

[CoonT]

Wherever you can shoot gongs at 600m, that's where I want to live.

Change the stock out for a USGI fiberglass. Bed it. Do the usual tinkering stuff that costs virtually nothing, ie shim the gas system, tighten up the op rod guide. With good ammo or handloads. I bet it will hover around 2 MOA.
Mine sits in that 1.5-2 moa area and I consistently cold bore head shaped gongs at 300M with little effort. Shooting torso sized gongs at 600 is no problem most of the time.
It is quickly becoming my "go to" rifle the more I shoot it.

 

[Pr589]

I suggest we pick a standard target and post our 100 yard targets.

This would be fun but how would we prove that the targets weren't shot from 25 yards, perhaps with a bolt gun? Some here won't accept anything but an in-person range session.

 

[Dake21]

Here it goes

Alright, lots of claim, few proof. I will show you what I got and you will be the judge if this is good or not.

5 rounds 50m

Then I proceded to 100m, 5 rounds.

Now 2 5 rounds magazine, 3 secondes between shots.

Again at 100 meters, offhands quick mag change 10 rounds from 2 magazines.

This was done by a guy who goes twice a month to the range and surplus Norinco ammo. Stock M305. Hopefully this will contribute well to the thread.

 

[rodauto]

Alright, lots of claim, few proof. I will show you what I got and you will be the judge if this is good or not.

5 rounds 50m

Then I proceded to 100m, 5 rounds.

Now 2 5 rounds magazine, 3 secondes between shots.

Again at 100 meters, offhands quick mag change 10 rounds from 2 magazines.

This was done by a guy who goes twice a month to the range and surplus Norinco ammo. Stock M305. Hopefully this will contribute well to the thread.

With surplus ammo and iron sights I don't see anything wrong with that! I put a scope on mine as I couldn't get used to the sights, best I did with handloads and iron sights was I think about 4 inches... sometimes. I suck with iron sights on my Enfields also though. The cold bore flier on mine was making me crazy so I put a medium wieght barrel on mine, have to work up a load now to see what the accuracy will be compared to the M1A with the same barrel.
I agree with many of the posters here that even though these rifles can be made to shoot pretty accurately the cost of doing so is pretty high and no guarantee that it will be a huge improvement. Still, the reason I have so much fun with these rifles is that they make me concentrate on my shooting style/ form and rifle tweaking skills more than any other firearm I own.
Rodney