Norinco m14 vs. Springfield m14

biggerair said:
I wouldnt say "can't afford", because I had the $ either way. However to blow 2 g on something that can't out perform its $399.00 counterpart is a joke.
A fool and his money is soon parted !!!;)
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See, this attitude represents much of what is wrong with our economy and values these days. The lowest price at any cost is NOT good, imo.
 
1899 said:
See, this attitude represents much of what is wrong with our economy and values these days. The lowest price at any cost is NOT good, imo.
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No but the lowest price for a something that preforms the same IS good.

Otherwise everyone would buy North American and toyota would be out of business.:D
 
".... what is wrong with our economy and values these days. The lowest price at any cost is NOT good, imo."

HMMMM!
IMO, what is wrong with our economy is that people are lured by "brand Name" advertising into spending their hard earned $$$ for brand names that are NOT any better than the competition. Advertising obviously works on some people ... there are still buyers lined up for Harley Davidsons when any any sane rider, who has done his homework, would prefer performance and reliability to noise and lack of power. But Harley is not marketing just a motorcycle ... they are marketing a Dream ... just like SA is not marketing a firearm but is marketing an image. And , for me, image does not overide substance and value. So I no longer ride Harleys [ BTDT ... had three ]. My last few bikes were all BMWs ... again they are marketing an image as well as a PERFORMANCE motorcycle ... but at least BMW delivers BOTH!!!

My current ride is a Suzuki Bandit 1200 .... which I enjoy quite well, thank you very much. The Bandit ain't no BMW, but it IS an Incredible VALUE!!!
For me, it is all about VALUE, not about cost ... some of those Tax dollars you pay out end up in my pocket, and believe it or not, I have enough disposable $$$, that if I wanted to, I could but another BMW [ and I probably will some day ] or another Springfield M1A rifle [ and I probably won't ].

For me, a $ 400 NORC M-14/M305, with a few US GI parts, a trip to the chop saw for an 18 3/4" Canuckistan legal shorty barrel, and a few hours fun tweaking it up, is a way better value than a $ 1800 Springfield ... which in my experience, will need some work anyway. Probably MORE work than your average Norc ... and the CAST/off Dimension SA receiver will never be as close to GI spec as the forged NORCS ... so why would I bother? Why spend your tax dollars on expensive things that don't work any better then less expensive things that do the same job [ maybe even a BETTER job ]?

You work hard for you tax money, and I respect that, so I spend your tax dollars carefully and wisely, and select my toys based on VALUE ... not Brand ... or advertising ... or what someone else says is "cool".

I built my very first M-14 shorty [ on a GENUINE US GI M14 ] because I wanted a Springfield "Squad Scout" rifle [ which came with an 18" barrel ], and could not get one with a Canuck legal length barrel. So into the chopsaw ... and the rest is history. Now the very first Genuine shorty M-14 in Canada was mine [ and it's cousin, the very first shorty AR 10 Flat top as well ]. Now that was COOL!!! Cool is leading the pack, not following it.

But if you want to buy a Springfield M1A [ or gawd forbid, a Harley ] go right ahead. Just don't expect me to drink that brand name coolaid along with you.
[;{)
LAZ 1
 
1899 said:
See, this attitude represents much of what is wrong with our economy and values these days. The lowest price at any cost is NOT good, imo.
Click to expand...

In my opinion, one of the many things wrong with our economy is overpriced items that are inferior in quality.
This represents a low value for your money spent.
To not recognize this means that you either enjoy throwing your money away or actually believe that "Made In America" means quality everytime.
 
Lazerus2000 said:
".... what is wrong with our economy and values these days. The lowest price at any cost is NOT good, imo."

HMMMM!
IMO, what is wrong with our economy is that people are lured by "brand Name" advertising into spending their hard earned $$$ for brand names that are NOT any better than the competition. Advertising obviously works on some people ... there are still buyers lined up for Harley Davidsons when any any sane rider, who has done his homework, would prefer performance and reliability to noise and lack of power. But Harley is not marketing just a motorcycle ... they are marketing a Dream ... just like SA is not marketing a firearm but is marketing an image. And , for me, image does not overide substance and value. So I no longer ride Harleys [ BTDT ... had three ]. My last few bikes were all BMWs ... again they are marketing an image as well as a PERFORMANCE motorcycle ... but at least BMW delivers BOTH!!!

My current ride is a Suzuki Bandit 1200 .... which I enjoy quite well, thank you very much. The Bandit ain't no BMW, but it IS an Incredible VALUE!!!
For me, it is all about VALUE, not about cost ... some of those Tax dollars you pay out end up in my pocket, and believe it or not, I have enough disposable $$$, that if I wanted to, I could but another BMW [ and I probably will some day ] or another Springfield M1A rifle [ and I probably won't ].

For me, a $ 400 NORC M-14/M305, with a few US GI parts, a trip to the chop saw for an 18 3/4" Canuckistan legal shorty barrel, and a few hours fun tweaking it up, is a way better value than a $ 1800 Springfield ... which in my experience, will need some work anyway. Probably MORE work than your average Norc ... and the CAST/off Dimension SA receiver will never be as close to GI spec as the forged NORCS ... so why would I bother? Why spend your tax dollars on expensive things that don't work any better then less expensive things that do the same job [ maybe even a BETTER job ]?

You work hard for you tax money, and I respect that, so I spend your tax dollars carefully and wisely, and select my toys based on VALUE ... not Brand ... or advertising ... or what someone else says is "cool".

I built my very first M-14 shorty [ on a GENUINE US GI M14 ] because I wanted a Springfield "Squad Scout" rifle [ which came with an 18" barrel ], and could not get one with a Canuck legal length barrel. So into the chopsaw ... and the rest is history. Now the very first Genuine shorty M-14 in Canada was mine [ and it's cousin, the very first shorty AR 10 Flat top as well ]. Now that was COOL!!! Cool is leading the pack, not following it.

But if you want to buy a Springfield M1A [ or gawd forbid, a Harley ] go right ahead. Just don't expect me to drink that brand name coolaid along with you.
[;{)
LAZ 1
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There is so much wrong with this post that I don't know where to start. Ask all the former small business owners who went out of business because of Wal-Mart. They didn't lose because they offered poor quality service and junk products. You go ahead and rebel against the marketing, pump your money into China. Like I said, the price you pay is not what it actually costs. There is a hidden cost to you, me and our families. Do you understand what I mean by that?

I haven't bought a Springfield even though I eye them up every once in a while. I think they are too expensive. But I won't buy a Norc because it is made in China. I'd rather not have one. Spare me the "don't you know that x y and z in your house is made in China" bs. I know where things are made and I make every effort to avoid Chinese products, even if it means not buying something I want. Or it means instead of buying 3 pairs of shoes I'll buy one pair.

Anyways, this just hijacks the thread so I won't bother to continue. Feel free to pm me if you want to discuss the matter further.

btw the Bandit is a great bike.
 
I'll be in White Rock on the weekend ... but not riding my JAPANESE bandit.

If you see a fat old WHITE guy with a grey pony tail, driving around in a JAPANESE Mini Truck, with a BIG GERMAN Shepherd on the left hand side, and a couple of CHINESE M14 rifles stuck in there somewhere, just smile and wave!
[;{)

I bought my Daihatsu Hijet 4x4 mini truck because I wanted VALUE ... and none of the American auto manufacturers understand that word. So now, we have the US and Canadian Governments contemplating bailing out some of the biggest manufacturers in North America.

WHY?
Because these big auto manufacturers wanted to sell you [ and STILL want to sell you ] the vehicles they want to make, not the vehicles you want to drive.

And the USED auto dealers here in BC are lobbying the Federal govt to stop importation of these sensible, reliable, durable, inexpensive, gas efficient KEI vehicles??

WHY?
Because LOTS of sensible people are buying these sensible IMPORTS, even fifteen year old imports, because they know these vehicles are a better VALUE than the new or used Canadian and US made gas hogs. And the car dealers, new and used, are stuck with obsolete heavy metal that they can't give away.

Why should our tax dollars go to protect Big businesses that don't evolve to meet evolving market needs?

Globalisation gives us options to purchase VALUE for money, that local suppliers simply won't supply. And protectionism merely encourages inefficiency.

PS: my step son just graduated with a degree in "HUMAN ECOLOGY" he did his undergraduate work in Guatemala and Mexico, living in teensy tiny remote villages, studying the effects of "globalisation" on the natives. You ain't seen nuthin' till you seen the Avon Lady making deliveries to these places.

Now ain't that sumthin??
As the Chinese say,
"May you be born in interesting times"
[;{)
TTFN
LAZ 1
 
You mistake my anti-Chinese product views with protectionism, and I have to tell you that you are mistaken. I have several firearms in my safe right now: Austrian, Czech, Hungarian, Italian, Finnish and one USA.

I choose not to buy Chinese products because they are a poor value. They are cheap, but poor value. The thing with me is that I look beyond the price tag. I consider the social, economic and environmental aspects of the way I live.

How do you feel about the Chinese putting melamine into milk and pet food? Hey, they could sell their product cheaper, and with the same amount of "protien". Only it's not protien, it's melamine tricking the testing procedures.

What about the toxic paints they use in children's products? What about the law suit going on against Victoria's Secret because a couple of lines of bras are causing serious rashes in women - they contain dangerous chemicals. What about the absolutely disasterous environmental impact of their industry? You don't think that makes a difference in our water or the air we breathe?

I just won't support Chinese products.

http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=57594

http://madeinchinaproductrecalls.com/

Also, the problem in my opinion is with the model of capitalism that demands rapid growth. I think what has happened in the world is, to a great extent, due to rapid and unsustainable growth. Part of this growth can be seen in the demand for increased profits year over year. If a company increases their profits by 10% one year, the they better increase the next year too, or their stock prices will suffer. That is one of the reasons they move production to China. Cheaper product = better profit margin.

Mind you this is an overly simple perspective, but I hope it conveys the gist of my views.


I'll wave if I see you!
 
dmitri- forging is not used to remove residual stresses, it is done to add them!

When you forge steel, you compress it. This forms flow lines. That forged steel is full of residual compressive stresses. Since 99% of all steel failures are tensile ( torsional, shearing, fatigue etc), it makes sense to have residual compressive stresses in the steel. It's not just to shape it.

Look at the ultimate tensile strengths of steels , now compare them to the ultimate compression strengths.

Forged is better than cast. Hands down!
 
Would not any residual stresses in a forging disappear when the item was subsequently heat treated?
 
depends on the heat treat, and whether you're doing hot forging or cold forging.

Knifemaking forging is done primarily to shape your material, or with Damascus steel to fold and fuse different alloys together. In that case, the knife receives it's strengths from heat treating.

Now look at a crane hook, good quality wrench. Cut em half. Polish em. Etch them with 2% nitric acid in ethanol. You will see the flow lines.

Dmitri is right in one sense. A hot forged receiver that is left to anneal will be softer and more ductile than a cast receiver that is quenched.

Hot forging is usually done above the austenitizing temperature (recrystallization temp). Any forging done under that temperature will retain the flow lines.

If the norc receiver is hot forged, there wouldn't be too much difference between the two. If done at any temp below around 725 C it will be better than cast.
 
Well, it is unlikely that we will ever find the exact procedure used to manufacture the Chinese receivers.
TRW M-14 receivers are surface hardened 8620 steel are they not? Were the blanks forged prior to machining?
While there are still some forged gun parts, CNC machined from a billet, precision cast, MIM or sintered seem to be more common. Ruger and the reproduction firearm industry certainly were pioneers in the precision casting of firearm components.
As far as the M305/M1A thing goes, you pay your money, and you take your chances. For the time being, folks have a choice.
 
yeah choice is good. No doubt about that. A norc being a pos? No way. Casting also yields different grain structures and can have different alloys added to improve flow for intricate parts.
 
1899 said:
You mistake my anti-Chinese product views with protectionism, and I have to tell you that you are mistaken. I have several firearms in my safe right now: Austrian, Czech, Hungarian, Italian, Finnish and one USA.

I choose not to buy Chinese products because they are a poor value. They are cheap, but poor value. The thing with me is that I look beyond the price tag. I consider the social, economic and environmental aspects of the way I live.

How do you feel about the Chinese putting melamine into milk and pet food? Hey, they could sell their product cheaper, and with the same amount of "protien". Only it's not protien, it's melamine tricking the testing procedures.

What about the toxic paints they use in children's products? What about the law suit going on against Victoria's Secret because a couple of lines of bras are causing serious rashes in women - they contain dangerous chemicals. What about the absolutely disasterous environmental impact of their industry? You don't think that makes a difference in our water or the air we breathe?

I just won't support Chinese products.

http://www.mondaq.com/article.asp?articleid=57594

http://madeinchinaproductrecalls.com/

Also, the problem in my opinion is with the model of capitalism that demands rapid growth. I think what has happened in the world is, to a great extent, due to rapid and unsustainable growth. Part of this growth can be seen in the demand for increased profits year over year. If a company increases their profits by 10% one year, the they better increase the next year too, or their stock prices will suffer. That is one of the reasons they move production to China. Cheaper product = better profit margin.

Mind you this is an overly simple perspective, but I hope it conveys the gist of my views.


I'll wave if I see you!
Click to expand...

So then you support the way of the USA since you have an American made firearm in your safe.
And they never cut corners on manufacturing that costs lifes. Oh yeah and the never harm the Enviroment. Based on your list of aspects for the way you live, your home must be on the Moon.

The original question was to compare the Norico to the Springfield. Not China to the USA.
 
tiriaq- those processes you mentioned are fine, and more cost effective for mass production too. IMHO forging is best. There's a reason people pay extra for a hammer forged barrel.

That said, if we didn't have these low priced norcs up here, you bet your ass I'd buy springfield m1a. I am sure the m1a is more refined than the norc, but in my eyes, it's not worth 4 times the $$
 
I own both. The Springfield were shooters right out of the box. I love them and will never part with them. I also own a number of Norincos. One was outstanding once the sights were upgraded and a decent stock placed on it. The others needed alot of work before they were acceptable. I like them both. The fit and finish is excellent on the Springfield's, they have a warranty and I enjoy them. The norinco's represent good value but the sights need upgrading and some attention to detail is needed. Like what you like but don't get so damn excited about it. To be honest, they are apples and oranges in my mind. Both rifles but both different. This is the chevy vs ford argument. There is no right or wrong answer. Just what you like.

So can we talk about something else rather than wasting this thread?
 
subdermal said:
One question if you don't mind - when did you get them? I've heard that their quality has changed considerably over time.
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I think I have some from each of the major shipments. I have my own tools and always plan on replacing the front/rear sights, stock and oprod spring and guide. A number needed to be indexed, some parts needed to be deburred etc but I would not be able to quantify each of the shipments. All can be fixed up and made shooters. Just need some help in picking what needs to be done first and seeing what that does in terms of accuracy and performance. In the end, most of my Norinco's less one have become complete rebuilds over time with the only thing being Norinco is the receiver. I have not had to replace or upgrade any part on my Springfields. I have owned 6 and still have 4 of them. They are good to go and never felt the need to mess with them. All were shooters out of the box.
 
Thanks for the info! I ordered two as a cost-effective way to learn about general disassembly/reassembly and customizing... I guess worst case scenario I'll learn more than I expected hehe :D
 
You'll be happy with them.

Some folk simply sit at extremes of the "issue" (non-existent IMO) because of good or bad experience with one product or the other. Then there are the fan-boys who desperately want to believe they didn't blow money one way or the other and cling desperately to brand beliefs. You'll hear endless rants from this crowd regarding reliability, metallurgy, group size, etc.
  • The world is ending, and you need that one reliable rifle that will last you through the coming apocalypse;
  • Never mind the fact that 7.62mm surplus is going to become so expensive that the average guy might be able to shoot that f**ker 'long term' even if it was made from pot-metal;
  • The hallmark is usually not how GOOD one brand is. God knows, forums are filled with 's**t part' this and 'doesn't fit' that. The REAL hallmark is in-depth tails of how s**tty the OTHER guy's brand is;
  • If my brand 'X' rifle can't print today, there's usually some bulls**t excuse to go with it;
  • Most of the fan-boy forums and for-sale posts read like 'quest for parts:the great dissapointment'. -- Yeah -- because gun nutz never start looking elsewhere for a lower maintenance precision platform. :rolleyes: ; and,
  • Oh, I almost forgot my favorite... god forbid that you buy from the wrong side and hasten us towards said foreboding doom.

Many others among us have owned, shot and enjoyed both for what they are.


This is an internet forum after all. Sometimes you just need to be careful not to step in the bulls**t.
 
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