Northern Ontario first nations want to limit moose hunting.

[Slamfire]

...that would restrict the rights of their members....

Peace Treaty rights fall under constitutional law so issues wouldn't be resolved at regional government levels but rather in the Supreme Court of Canada. Unlike privileges, rights are supposed to be inalienable - just like human rights. A very interesting battle with all sorts of ramifications seems to be brewing.

 

[mbogo3]

How about trucks,quads ,spotlights for ditch sweeping,and netting the mouths of spawning rivers.Like wolves they decimate a 50 mile area till its game free ,move on and repeat.Seen this many times.No concept of conservation or leaving some for the future.The mindset is if today's needs are met or exceeded tomorrow will look after itself. Harold

 

[MiG25]

Nice to see they are admitting that they are a problem.

Are they the entire problem, definitely not.

If FN want to hunt 365 with no rules/limits, like they did before white men, then it should be with spears and bows on horses (traditional). I've got no problem with that.

but

hunting with lights, motorized vehicles, rifles, 365 with no limits SHOULDN'T BE ALLOWED. If FN want to use modern equipment then they should follow the same rules we do in 2017.

Some of the Numbered Treaties specify that the Gov't would supply them with ammunition for hunting and they aren't referring to arrows.

I think a lot of the griping about Indians hunting is jealousy.

 

[MiG25]

How about trucks,quads ,spotlights for ditch sweeping,and netting the mouths of spawning rivers.Like wolves they decimate a 50 mile area till its game free ,move on and repeat.Seen this many times.No concept of conservation or leaving some for the future.The mindset is if today's needs are met or exceeded tomorrow will look after itself. Harold

Game cannot be stockpiled for the future.

50 miles eh, there are 3 Indian Reserves within 50 miles of here and there is plenty of game, not as much as 10 years ago, but it is not scarce by any means.

 

[Doogs]

Game cannot be stockpiled for the future.

50 miles eh, there are 3 Indian Reserves within 50 miles of here and there is plenty of game, not as much as 10 years ago, but it is not scarce by any means.

Nice anecdote, but history doesn't lie. Most tribes were nomadic to semi-nomadic. They ate everything, including freshwater mussels, garter snakes, and mice. There were no "outhouses" and there was no management of timber. They would literally eat burn and s**t up an area until there was no food, no firewood, and no clean living space. Few tribes grew crops, and those that did learned it after 1500, with only a couple of exceptions.

These are the historical facts. They can be found in museums, like the National Museum of Civilization, or in many historical texts written before "the great PC cleansing"

Also, your statement that "game cannot be stockpiled (he said

) for the future" is weapons grade retarded. Read some books.​

 

[45ACPKING]

Treaty 6 was signed in 1876, pretty sure rifles were a thing back then. Just saying.

yes, they were.
And it's odd that so many canadians have zero idea that the Metis , armed with guns and other weapons are the very reason we all have a country called Canada to live in and that we are not all french or absorbed by the US so long ago.
My great, great grandfather, Onchaminahos AKA Chief Little Hunter of the saddle lake nation, signed treaty 6 ...... and here I sit 1000's of km from a land that should be my home for generations of my family but instead that treaty land was later, in the 1940's given to dutch farmers despite being treaty lands. My family is buried on that land but the graves were desicrated by the land owner in his attempts to destroy them. Our family changed that and the historical societies stepped in and the sites were restored.

Anyhow, I know there are bad apples in the indigenous groups when it comes to harvesting but people of all walks of life are doing these things. Like the moose poachers up here that have been seen and identified as two caucasian males in thier 30's hunting at night with spot lights up the westman/timothy mountain. Or the two asian guys they busted a few weeks ago hunting bears with a bait bucket.... illegal here. Or the white escalade full of gangster looking south asian youths cruising around here shooting at deer from thier vehicle. I;ve been out for 80% of the season so far and I haven't even seen a local FN out moose hunting or doing any kind of hunting for that matter and we have a large reserve here and some small ones.
I know that the behavior is different from province to province but from inside the various indigenous groups I interact with, there is a demand for change coming from within, a demand to conserve and protect and a demand to no longer let goverments take away or dictate how and when we excersice our rights given to us bt treaty and protected by the constitution.

I get folks frustration, I understand, but at the end of the day if we all want change we have to work together and stay positive.... even though I know, the bad apples make it hard sometimes.
I'm a conservationsist first and I try to get that message out whenever the opportunity presents.

 

[MiG25]

Nice anecdote, but history doesn't lie. Most tribes were nomadic to semi-nomadic. They ate everything, including freshwater mussels, garter snakes, and mice. There were no "outhouses" and there was no management of timber. They would literally eat burn and s**t up an area until there was no food, no firewood, and no clean living space. Few tribes grew crops, and those that did learned it after 1500, with only a couple of exceptions.

These are the historical facts. They can be found in museums, like the National Museum of Civilization, or in many historical texts written before "the great PC cleansing"

Also, your statement that "game cannot be stockpiled (he said

) for the future" is weapons grade retarded. Read some books.​

Ok.

At a winter camp, boys in their early teens were responsible to collect the chamber pots and dispose of the contents in the morning.

Seasonal movements were dictated by certain places that they had to be at a certain time. Spawning streams, berry ripening, cottonwood fluff, Mule Deer coming onto their winter range, etc.

Why would they manage timber? There is evidence that berries were cultured.

Maybe we could learn a few things, the acounts I've heard are that marmots and muskrats taste good. What's wrong with eating mussels? Eating snails, frog legs and oysters is civilized but eating snakes isn't?

I cut the firewood close to my house first, it's only sensible. When it is exhausted I will get in my truck and go further afield.

We can attempt to maintain breeding populations but game cannot be stockpiled, it is ultimately at the mercy of the winter.​

 

[Doogs]

Now might be a good time to mention my Abitibi BLOOD RELATIVES in Pikogan, eh?

Another fun fact: Stone age Europeans also strained resources and s**t everywhere until they got diseases and half the tribe died off. but Racism, right?

 

[GuiltySpark]

This is fact and you are grossly exagerating that i accuse "most" of cgn as being anti native.... that is pure hawgwash..... fake news.
This thread is about some positives and I hope the discussion stays that way.

Sorry 45ACP you're wrong. It's not semantics either. I'm using the exact word that you yourself used.

This good news and while I know there is a large anti indigenous populace here on CGN

I'm sorry if I'm derailing this thread a little here but this is like saying a large portion of CGN is anti Black or anti Asian.

I'm a member of canada's metis nation

I respect you and would never try and speak on your behalf however in my own research (albeit not from personal experience) which included statements from Metis Canadians themselves, the Metis are treated poorly by other Indigenous Canadians. Significantly. I've seen FN often suggest Metis are not or should not be considered Indigenous. (for the record I think they should).

You'll see one of the reasons I mention this when I reply Kenny_G2.

added:

I get folks frustration, I understand, but at the end of the day if we all want change we have to work together and stay positive.... even though I know, the bad apples make it hard sometimes.
I'm a conservationsist first and I try to get that message out whenever the opportunity presents.

Great comment.

 

[GuiltySpark]

What a load of crap, those communities are successful because they have embraced their history and treaties. I come from one of the more prosperous reserves in Canada and the youth are more in touch with the heritage, language and treaties than my generation is and they are doing great.

Perhaps herritage was a poorly chosen word or used in a poor context but how does embracing treaties that will never be fully actioned or respected cause a community to be successful? FN people aren't going to be given large swathes of Canadian territory to govern over. No disrespect intended but FN stewardship and running of the property and fiances they DO manage is often quite far from successful.

I can't recall his name right now but there is a very successful business leader from a very successful band out in BC and some of the take away's from his success story, as told by him, is not to use "Indian time". The businesses that bands run should be run like every other Canadian company and not a band company (paraphrasing). The reserve system is the biggest detriment to the future of indigenous people. In the advent that land was ever returned bands would essentially immediately go to war with each other over who gets the land.

 

[45ACPKING]

Sorry 45ACP you're wrong. It's not semantics either. I'm using the exact word that you yourself used.










I respect you and would never try and speak on your behalf however in my own research (albeit not from personal experience) which included statements from Metis Canadians themselves, the Metis are treated poorly by other Indigenous Canadians. Significantly. I've seen FN often suggest Metis are not or should not be considered Indigenous. (for the record I think they should).

You'll see one of the reasons I mention this when I reply Kenny_G2.

added:


Great comment.

ya now that i see my post i did reference all of cgn and that is my mistake when i really only see these topics in the hunting forum.
but i think i've cleared that up.
I don't hate on anybody for the past. It is what it is. I do try to imagine what it must have been like for members of my family to act in good faith but be met with lies and corruption. I try to imagine what it must have been like to be punished as a child physically and mentally for speaking your language or wearing the clothes made by your grandmother. I don't try to imagine these things because i want to find who's guilty and hate on them. I try to imagine them because it's part of my heritage. I don't know my native language , no one in my dad's family does as it was taken from the generation before him. Heck most of my family will not even identify publicly that they are native cree/metis , yet they have that identity in thier wallets.
I get no special treatment other than i can apply for business grants, possibly have some post secondary education grants.... there's no reserve i can live on, I pay the same taxes as everyone else, I pay for the same licenses and tags with the exception of waterfowl. I'll admit sometimes I feel like i should have all the rights and privledges of first nations but sadly, though the laws of the land say i do..... I don't LOL

I don't want to troll here or cause a fueled debate leading to reported posts and infractions. Some folks have had terrible experiences in thier different regions that they base real feelings on. Some folks just parrot the crap they hear and read with no real experience at all. The internet is full of those folks.
As for other groups like the first nations hating on the metis.... I have experienced the exact opposite in my dealings with many first nations.... and I interact on a regular basis. I've written for and given permission in some cases by band councils to harvest on territory land and access areas for hunting and fishing. I also am registered with 3 different bands in the province who recognize my metis status card and don't charge me the taxes on fuel and groceries
some provinces may have totally different climates of tolerance but here in bc, most FN folks are very welcoming when i identify myself as Metis.

anyhow, the OP posted some positive stuff and I'm one that supports those kinds of conservation measures and acts of responsibility from native groups, governments, hunting groups and corporations.

 

[Kenny_G2]

Perhaps herritage was a poorly chosen word or used in a poor context but how does embracing treaties that will never be fully actioned or respected cause a community to be successful? FN people aren't going to be given large swathes of Canadian territory to govern over. No disrespect intended but FN stewardship and running of the property and fiances they DO manage is often quite far from successful.

I can't recall his name right now but there is a very successful business leader from a very successful band out in BC and some of the take away's from his success story, as told by him, is not to use "Indian time". The businesses that bands run should be run like every other Canadian company and not a band company (paraphrasing). The reserve system is the biggest detriment to the future of indigenous people. In the advent that land was ever returned bands would essentially immediately go to war with each other over who gets the land.

In Ontario First Nations have been invited to be key holders for forest tenure in the forest industry and in land use planning and mining development in the far North. So they are regaining control over large areas of their territories. Some FNs are working collaboratively together towards these goals of increased involvement. A few links for your enlightenment:
https://www.northernontariobusiness...restry/lac-seul-forest-makes-the-grade-715118
http://nfmcforestry.ca

I think you are quoting Chief Louie with the Indian Time comment, that wasn't him abandoning his heritage, it was him saying workers need to show up of they are planning to work for him. If you don't show up for work and do your job chances are you won't work for long in my home community. I know the business owners on my reserve expect their employees to show up on time and work, how else would they afford their private jets, golf courses, arenas and rolls royces.

 

[CreamySmooth]

What bugs me is that culture and tradition are a luxury. There is no other racial groups in the world that are successful that make culture a “required identifier”. Chinese, Ukrainian, Scottish, East Indian... and on and on. They practice their traditional culture when they can afford it. Because it’s a luxury. Before they practice cultural traditions, they make sure they can pay for it and operate in the modern world first. Seeing a FN step forward and realize that with the population boom they are having that unlimited hunting is not viable is admirable.

 

[45ACPKING]

What bugs me is that culture and tradition are a luxury. There is no other racial groups in the world that are successful that make culture a “required identifier”. Chinese, Ukrainian, Scottish, East Indian... and on and on. They practice their traditional culture when they can afford it. Because it’s a luxury. Before they practice cultural traditions, they make sure they can pay for it and operate in the modern world first. Seeing a FN step forward and realize that with the population boom they are having that unlimited hunting is not viable is admirable.

Culture and tradition are a luxury? LOL And the rest of your post also makes zero sense and is simply untrue.
Canada goes to great lengths to embrace and protect the multi cultures represented in canada. I won't start singling out the various ethnic groups and the cultural practices we changed canadian laws to accept. But to say that the various cultures in this country including the indigenous peoples need to work hard and raise a pile of cash so they can "afford" to pay to excercise thier cultural practices is just shockingly ignorant. I would bet that every culture represented in canada, every nationality has had or still has both provincial and federal funding to support the events and practices that are unique to thier culture. Haven't studied on that one but I'm willing to be it is the current environment we all exist in.

anyways, I get weary of these pointless debates. I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Cameron SS]

and there it is.....

this kind of language will no longer be tolerated , if you were speaking about any other nationality in canada you would be accused of hate speach. Hopefully the mods will deal with you as I have requested. You wanna respectfully express your frustrations and be part of a future solution? I get that and can respect that but the post you have made is wholly offensive and innapropriate and like i said, will no longer be tolerated here.

Sadly, this kind of language is often tolerated, regardless of who it is directed at... If you don't get your way and have the poster punished, trust me, its not because people tolerated the speech because it was directed at FN. The mods would probably end up deleting half the politics section of the forum if they took that hard a line against offensive speech.

What exactly are you talking about? The article talks about FN limiting their own hunting, not targeting non-aborgionals.

And when an uncontrollable actor, be it disease, coyotes, or unregulated FN destroy an unsustainable portion of the herd, how will the conservationist at the MNR respond? By limiting what they can control: hunting tags. That's the connection.

There is one herd. It is insane to tell one group of people that the government has the unfettered right to responsibly manage the land and animal populations, and then to tell another group of people that you can hunt without restriction ad infinitum. I am fine with FN having their own sectioned off land that only they can hunt, I am fine with them using whatever tools they want. But personally I think they should participate in the same regulations re hunting season and numbers of tags issued as the rest of us, so that we can share the herd and sustain for everyone's grand children.

Side note, if two groups of people don't get along, make them play games together helps integrate. Making them play separate games with separate rules only breeds further division.

 

[PSE]

I for one resent the hell out of the fact that there are two separate rule systems to play by when it comes to hunting. One set for non natives and another for natives. How is it possible to have successful game management policies with such a wild card?

How can the government accurately predict what number of tags to release and what the harvest numbers will be when one group of our society has virtually unfettered access and ability to hunt (with the best modern equipment money can buy) any time they want and any amount they want?

 

[win94luver]

What exactly are you talking about? The article talks about FN limiting their own hunting, not targeting non-aborgionals.

If the MNR had any ballz they would have imposed hunting limitations on the FN long ago but they didn't.
As a result the moose population has been decimated beyond recovery in many areas.
The MNR needs to sack up and start protecting game species in this province by making and enforcing harvest quotas for everyone or there won't be any game left for anybody including the FN.

 

[freddyfour]

I get folks frustration, I understand, but at the end of the day if we all want change we have to work together and stay positive.... even though I know, the bad apples make it hard sometimes.
I'm a conservationsist first and I try to get that message out whenever the opportunity presents.

Well said Thomas! I for one welcome the move and see it as a positive step forward that will help the divide between natives and non natives. I have lived close to a reserve my entire life and have often met with some great people on the reserve, but I have also been witness to the few bad apples that poach at night on private property. Like any community the real a$$holes end up painting the entire community bad.

 

[CreamySmooth]

Culture and tradition are a luxury? LOL And the rest of your post also makes zero sense and is simply untrue.
Canada goes to great lengths to embrace and protect the multi cultures represented in canada. I won't start singling out the various ethnic groups and the cultural practices we changed canadian laws to accept. But to say that the various cultures in this country including the indigenous peoples need to work hard and raise a pile of cash so they can "afford" to pay to excercise thier cultural practices is just shockingly ignorant. I would bet that every culture represented in canada, every nationality has had or still has both provincial and federal funding to support the events and practices that are unique to thier culture. Haven't studied on that one but I'm willing to be it is the current environment we all exist in.

anyways, I get weary of these pointless debates. I'll just leave it at that.

Yes, culture and tradition are a luxury. When a Scotsman wants a kilt, he feeds his kids, pays the bills, mortgage etc.... THEN he buys a kilt. When a Ukrainian wants a Ukrainian dance costume he does the same THEN he buys the costume. For someone who can’t afford it, they live in the modern world and work until they can. While it may define them and allow them to express their proud history, it’s not done before the all the necessities are handled first. And none of these other cultures overinflate the importance of tradition in daily life. It does not become such a obsession so as to interfere with good governance. It’s a luxury.

 

[GuiltySpark]

I think you are quoting Chief Louie with the Indian Time comment, that wasn't him abandoning his heritage, it was him saying workers need to show up of they are planning to work for him. If you don't show up for work and do your job chances are you won't work for long in my home community. I know the business owners on my reserve expect their employees to show up on time and work, how else would they afford their private jets, golf courses, arenas and rolls royces.

You're right thanks for the correct name.

I think this comment;

how else would they afford their private jets, golf courses, arenas and rolls royces.

exemplifies one of the major problems with the reserve system and the difference between yours & 45ACPs views on heritage compared to the rich high rollers you speak about. The latter use the guise of heritage to get rich.