Not Enough Frustration in Your Life? Try Cast bullets..

Salty

Salty

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Just need to vent :D

I spend yesterday and today dicking around with my first loads for my Marlin 1895 rifle. Its got the microgroove rifling and Williams peep sights. With this rifle I've great accuracey with several different factory jacketed bullet offerings I've tryed. You know, groups that you wouldn't be real mad at if you were using a scope type of thing.

So, with the spring bear hunt looming ahead and fantasys about my primitive system shooting cast bullets I have-ater loading some 405gr cast bullets of exact unknown origin. Now first off, I'm a rookie reloader so yesterday after abismal accuracey on a load work up I looked through things more carefully and found out that I had screwed up setting the crimp. In fact there wasn't one to speak of.

So thismorning I work up some more of the same getting the crimp just dandy. Ya, things are looking up :) .

Well lets just cut to the chase these 0.458" bullets have had their way with me and I think I'll use the rest in my sling shot.:eek: At ~ 1500 ft/s I had a couple of shots within a couple of inches, nicely opened up by the third to about 8". as I got to 1600 ft/s the groups open into lovely 10" spreads and just keep getting worse past that. :(

I'll fiddle around some more to find the right bullet some day but right now I think I'll be buyin heading down island for some 400gr speers or such. :rolleyes:

Arrrrgh.
 
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I think I remember reading about microgroove rifling, cast bullets and the incompatibility of the two. The article said that the lead bullets do not "bite" into the rifling, resulting in poor accuracy and lead fouled barrels. It could be that your loading skills are just fine, it's just the rifle that doesn't like what you're feeding it.

Sharptail
 
Same thing happened a few years ago with my .444 Marlin. Then I read Marshall Stanton's stuff and realized that cast would not shoot until all the copper is removed from the barrel. Well, it went from 12" to 1.5" groups with cast. This is a Micro-groove barrel.
 
Yes I'm aware of all the above guys. Thanks for the reminder about Stanton's work hermie, I haven't read that for a while. I did clean the bajebus out of the barrel for these testings but it obviously wasn't to work. I remeber him talking about fire lapping to polish the bore for his tests.

The thing I need to do I think is slug my barrel to see where the hell I'm at. I might find a different sized bullet that will hit the sweet spot without any bother. Oh well, its a kind of a fun irritation anyway...:cool:
 
I shoot cast in 45-70 the same 405 grainers that you are using and I get a lot better accurancy when they are sized to .459-.460. Also you have to have a gas check or at least a wad to protect the bullet.
I find I get better accuarancy with lower velocity. The other big factor with cast is the lube that you are using. I find a softer lube works better.
Hope it helps
Cooner
 
you may have cleaned it but did you get the leading out. When you went from a couple of inches to spray and pray, I suspect the rifling was plugged up with lead.

Have a look down the bore. You will see 'stuff' clinging to all parts of the barrel. If so, get some lead out clothes and in a few minutes all will be well again.

My guess is that the lead is too soft. Try water quenched wheel weights and gas checks. I bet your problem will be solved.

As long as the bullet doesn't get torn up going down the barrel, you can get them going as fast as 1900fps. Certainly 1500fps will do no harm.

Jerry
 
Thanks guys, some great advice here.

and I get a lot better accurancy when they are sized to .459-.460.
Click to expand...
That's what I'm thinking these bulets are .458

you may have cleaned it but did you get the leading out.
Click to expand...
Whaled away with solvent and a brush thismorning from yesterday's shoot. No signs of leading :confused:

BTW I'm shooting 45 to 49 grains of imr 3031 with a commercially made 405gr. with one groove plus the canulure. Factory lubed and in good shape.
 
That seems like a lot of powder. You need to use cast bullet loads NOT jacketed bullet loads. They are not the same dispite similar bullet weights.

In a 45-70, I would look at reduced loads of H4198, H4895, H335, Re7, SR4759 and similar. There is lots of cast bullet loads in the net.

If the pressure curve and amount is too high, the bullets will tear apart going down the barrel.

Leading does not come out easily with brass brushes and solvents usually don't touch it. Lead out clothes made by kleenbore will make your life very easy. Just look down the bore. If there is still lead in the rifling, you will see it quite plainly ie sections where no rifling is visible.

0.458 should be the right diameter but if the load and alloy is wrong, you will not shoot well.

Jerry
 
Ya I'm pushing it a bit but staying a full grain under another recipe that works in a friend's Marlin with same weight bullets. From what I've seen if I backed way down to Trapdoor loads this combination might shoot OK, but not the hunting load I want.

I'm going to sleep on this and re read all of the great advice and ideas tomorrow. I'll take some time to get this artform working for me, and probably won't happen for bear season I'm thinking but its going to be a fun project :D
 
It takes a lot of tweaking to get a micro groove barrel to shoot lead properly. Compounded by your relatively heavy load of 3031???

The guys gave you some good advice. Move up in diameter, try a powder more suited to cast bullet loads/velocities and maybe use a gas check. It'll probably still take a little screwing around, but I doubt if you'll ever manage to get jacketed accuracy using cast bullets in a micro-groove barrel.

Check with the guys on the "Cast Boolits" forum. I know some of them are shooting cast in a micro-groove.
 
Salty, I cast and shoot alot of cast bullets. I have a Marlin 44 mag with the Micro grove. The only way it will shoot cast is if I make a really hard cast ( Lots Of Linotype) with a gas check.
Most of my cast bullets are made with the Lyman #2 lead mix, that works really well for me. With this mix, and a gas check, I can drive the snot outta my loads with little or no leadding at all. I hope this helps ya out!

Duane
 
They're stepping right along for a cast bullet load. My guess is they're fouling like a bastard. They'll fould like crazy if there's any gilding metal still in the bore from jacketed bullets. I've never used a micro groove barrel though.

FWIW I shoot stout 3031 loads with 418 gr cast bullets (as cast from 30:1 alloy in Lyman mould 457193) and they foul a bit, but I'm getting 1950 FPS out of them in a 28" barrelled 1885.
 
I would measure dia. I use .310 in .308 (30-30) , and .378 in .375(38-55/.375 H&H)
Also DO a BHN test for how hard they are , 16 is great for hunting and can be pushed 1400-1700 no worries. BHN 20+ IS GREAT for fast , but will shatter, BHN 12 Is great for slow moving rifle or faster pistol loads.
Use Linotype, mix in WW and a bit of Tin.
Frank
 
Cast bullets in marlin microgroove barrel.
First clean the copper fouling out, use a good power solvent, then a pure household ammonia soak for at least 1/2 hour to get the copper fouling out.
Or buy some real expensive stuff from your local gunstore that does the same thing.

I have found that the hardness of the alloy the bullet is cast from acts as an accuracy speed limit. In my rifles the lyman #2 alloy starts to give up at about 1800 fps, the barrel starts to lead, and accuracy gets worse.
I start all cast bullet loads at about 1200 fps and work up loads until I get the fastest, most accurate load. This varies from rifle to rifle.

I also size the bullets .001 to .002 over the bore size for microgroove marlins. and use either Lee liquid allox or lyman cast bullet lube, and sometimes the lee liquid allox relubing a lyman lubed bullet. No leading yet.

I have also found that orienting the bullet to the rifling in the same postion as it comes from the mold helps to reduce group sizes. This is much easier in single shot rifles but can be done with marlin repeaters on the range.
You can make a small index mark in the mold that shows up on the nose of the bullet.


Lastly, use a gas check. The integrity of the bullet base determines how the bullet leaves the barrel. A cast bullet without a gas check will not give accuracy at higher pressures with smokeless powder. I have taken plain based bullets and glued a reversed gas check to the bottom with bullet lube and this has served to reduce group sizes. Be carefull if you do this, a gap between the gas check and the bullet can give you a ringed chamber and that means a rebarrel.
Microgroove barrels tend to shoot hard cast gas check bullets more accurately.

When you are working up a load and group sizes start to get larger, you have exceeded the pressure that bullet and alloy work best at.
Sometimes it takes patience to work up a good cast bullet load but there is nothing more satisfying than to get a 1.5 inche (0r less) group at 100 meters with cast bullets.

A cast bullet that will shoot well and not strip in the rifling at 1800 feet per second is not going to be soft enough to open up when you are shooting at small game like deer. I have had a 200 grain bullet (1400fps) from a 303 shoot the entire length of a dear, back to front, it broke every rib and ended up under the hide in the front shoulder. There was no expansion at all.

Just remember, if you want to shoot at jacketed bullet veolcities, buy jacketed bullets.
 
Agreed. ha,ha

My boys have knocked out a few birds with them. Not much trajectory with 3/4 crushed;)

I don't see the cats all day if they see the boys coming around the house with sling shots;)
 
Great additional advice. If using for hunting, don't worry about expansion.

A FN 45cal heavy slug will rock whatever gets in the way. Buffalo were pretty much irraticated by 400 to 550gr 45cal slug at 1000 to a whopping 1250fps. Orig 45-70 to the monsterous 45-120 loads.

You don't need velocity or expansion when you have that much frontal area and mass. Just trajectories get pretty curved beyond 150yds.

You might want to also look at the Hodgdon/IMR/Alliant Cowboy loads. That would be ideal for what you are doing. Slow down those bullets and you will see improvements in accuracy.

I think relubing your commercial bullets with some Lee liq Alox will work wonders for your leading problem. Commercial lubes can be too 'hard' to work well in some barrels.

You could also heat treat the bullets to make them harder but this will be messy as the present lube will melt off the bullets. However, a simple relube with Lee Alox and you are back in business with bullets that will stand up to faster velocities.

If you go with a milk carton or similar gas check, it is advisable to get a load so that the powder is slightly compressed or the gas check attached permanently. If the gas check falls off or if there is a gap between check and bullet base, it can cause some serious problems with the barrel.

Some have even used alum foil...

Jerry
 
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